All amps sound the same??? (Read Inside)

[mtrycrafts]

I talked to Bryston before and was not told they sound different. I can't remember exactly what he said but basically should sound the same. Is it just you perception that they sound different or you know for a fact Bryston made them sound different. If it is the latter then I would have to talk to Bryston again about it.

No need to call them. Their amps are transparent. Talked with Chris in the past, a Peter Aczel white hat engineer, and they design it to be transparent.

 

[mtrycrafts]

In my own system at home.... of course easy 10 out of 10 np.

Too many golden ears failed such tests but we have many here who needs your money Go for the bets.

 

[Seth=L]

I don't know why Panasonic stopped making the all-digital receivers. Could've been marketing. Could've been "political". Could've been a lot of things. Companies do things that "we" consumers don't understand all the time.

I think the Panasonic Class D receivers were far from refined. If they had stuck with it and continued developing or obtained liscensing for key developements in switching amplifier technology they could have potentially done well. I feel comfortable saying that the Panasonic "digital" receivers did not sell well for a few reasons. No major big box retailer carried their receivers for any significant duration. They dropped the long lasting and recognized Technics home theater brand (they still offer Technics in the professional divisions). This poses a problem because it makes them look like Sony (the highest seller of home audio products overall), but without the same level of recognition (although still ranking in the top ten). There are still people out there that think Sony is just the best for everything, Panasonic hasn't been so lucky in this regard. Technics stood out on its own and penetrated the market with budget audio equipment.

Off the top of my head... Mirage, one of my favorite speaker brands, changed its beautiful logo that audiophiles had been used to seeing for years into some cheap, generic looking logo. Why!? It might seem silly to care, but why screw with your brand recognition, unless you WANT people to forget who you really are? For example, BP should change their logo!

That's easy. Klipsch bought out API group, which owned a majority of the Canadian speaker brands including Energy, Mirage, and Athena. Klipsch has a reputation for putting competing brands they purchase on the chopping block after they've bought them out. Because Klipsch know owns them they also want to rewrite their image and they will try to market it how they feel it will work best for them. Klipsch also owns Jamo and is in the top ten home audio sellers.

Fun fact: behind Sony for highest seller of home audio products come in our two favorite companies, Bose followed by..... Ooh just guess who.

Do you think the Panasonic engineers who designed the XR receivers, wanted them to sound bright?

No, I don't think their goal was to make it sound bright. As a already mentioned, the design was not refined. B&O developed the ICEamp which has been used by several manufacturers with licensing of course. Panasonic has a tendency to do their own thing, which is highly commendable, however this can be harmful to their bottom line because it requires more research and development (which they are excellent at doing) but it's also quite costly. Large multinationals like Panasonic, Samsung, and Sony all do most of their stuff in house, which is why their products can stand out. Lately it seems Matshita has had a string of bad luck that has forced them to reduce their workforce and product lines even though their products are in general fairly reliable and offer competitive performance for their price (their plasma televisions come to mind).

 

[werd]

I would love to compare my 20 + year old Bryston to your new one werd )) hehe. My Polk 2b's love my Bryston 4b , i have hooked up many amps to the 2bs over the years and they dont seem to like to many Amps , like the bryston . The Bryston can move alot of air and never clip out the polks @ very high volumes ( hehe ) . I listin to 2 channel only .
I do find , with the Carver tfm 35 vs the Bryston 4b . both sound great @ lower levels . The carver has a more up front soundstage . But @ high levels , the Bryston runs away .

Hey Wire

Sold my 4B and moved into a new 14B about 5 months ago. . The new 4B's are an excellent amp and have tons of jam when called upon like you know. They also can be laid back too. I think Polk are some of the most underrated speakers out there. They tend to get over looked by people who are looking at other brands in the 4k range that are not any better. I like them lots.

 

[werd]

I talked to Bryston before and was not told they sound different. I can't remember exactly what he said but basically should sound the same. Is it just you perception that they sound different or you know for a fact Bryston made them sound different. If it is the latter then I would have to talk to Bryston again about it.

Hi Peng

Just call Bryston and talk to them about their "1st to last watt philosphy". Both models are transparent. Ask them about the latest cap changes and how it's change the tone on their amps. I have talked to James Tanner over email and on the bryston forum many many times about the 4B. Go look i started original thread back in Jan 09 on the new 4Bsst/2 on that board on Audio circle (still can't link yet). The thread is still current, maybe a page in.
I have plenty of experience with the sst and sst/2 models in 4B

Anyways dock you can get amps that are very different with the same specs so up to you decide what you like and go find the amp that suits you.

 

[adwilk]

Well I guess that if you can't get quite the right sound your looking for out of you amp, just change your power cable.... [/sarcasm]

 

[Alex2507]

The mind is very powerful ...

... not mine.

 

[PENG]

It might as well have been "blind" for my daughter (13 years old) since she didn't know that the Panasonic was said to have been "bright", but I wasn't trying to be scientific. It was just a spur of the moment test. I just swapped cables and asked if she heard a difference. She really wasn't "into" the whole thing anyway (she may have even rolled her eyes), but she did hear it.

By the way, did you not care for the "sound" of Panasonic's all-digital receiver's? Do you think the Panasonic engineers who designed the XR receivers, wanted them to sound bright? I imagine they have a group of "ears" that listen to the product and give a feedback, yes? I would think they could have, and perhaps thought they were making a "neutral" sounding component. I really have no idea. I'll shut up now

I remember when those Panny digital amps first came out people at the Sony forum raved about how warm and tube like they were. Your findings seem to contradict those claims/experiences by others.

When you A/B them did you always listen from the same position listening to the same part of the music? In my room, even a few feet would make an audible difference in tonal balance.

Regardless, I always believe some amps could sound different (such as the ones you compared). I hate to say it but the fact that your 13 year ago heard it does should add credibility in this case. What I have trouble with are claims like day and night, huge, hearing things they had not heard before kind of comments. I also have trouble with claims about two mid to high end amps sounding differently even at low volume, with the higher power one sounding better. That kind of claim has no scientific basic and even the people who designed the high power amp would tell you such difference would only be possible if the music used for comparison at such low level has extreme dynamics that push one amp to near the clipping point and that should only be noticeable during those dynamic peak moments.

 

[PENG]

why is it that some amps double their power say 250wpc at 8 ohms 500wpc at 4 ohms and some amps dont do this... is it build quality or padded numbers?

Theoretically not possible without doing some tricks (scientifically) to the amp because the part of the power supply losses are directly proportional to the current while part of it is almost constant as long as it is operating within the design limit.

There are other simple tricks, for example, a 50W 8 ohm, 75W 4 ohm at 0.1% THD can be re-rated as a 37.5W 8 ohm, 75W 4 ohm at no more than 0.1% THD. In this case, the manufacturer is still telling you the truth but all of a sudden it appears their amps double down, so must be good!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Like I said, just to name a few. Didn't even get to Sony (That amp still sounds great even at todays standards, just ask Rick), Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, Sherwood, KLH, Marantz 4400 now that was nice in those days, just found a recent picture of that one, now that's going way back. When I did my far east tour in the early 70's I changed systems at least twice a month.

And I thought I was NUTS!!!

 

[pzaur]

Well I guess that if you can't get quite the right sound your looking for out of you amp, just change your power cable.... [/sarcasm]

Get it right! You need to change a cap. Which, by the way, I'm putting on a Cardinals cap (football) this afternoon. It should make a huge change in sound since the QB throws lefty.

-pat

 

[chris357]

Most likely the 250 in that case is very conservative rating perhaps to make it look good at 4 Ohms.

that actually makes sense... so there is typically a fall off from 8ohm to 4ohm... a certain quality is going to do it(double wpc) where a cheaper"x" wont?

in which case it means I'm getting better than 250wpc whcih goes along to say there is a big diffrence in volume from the last amps I had..

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't care if you provide the publications of 100 double-blinded tests and each test involved 10,000 "audiophiles" and showed that you could not tell the difference among 100 amps ranging from $300 to $300,000!!!

You will not change the minds of those who believe otherwise!!!

It is their CHOICE, and they have the right to believe as they may.

...Don't even try to persuade or convince.

...Not going to happen.

...Just accept and go on.

Of course, who would not want a Mark Levinson, Krell, McIntosh, Bryston instead of a behringer amp or similar?

You just buy what you can afford. That is the name of the game.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The mind is very powerful, it can make people that aren't sick believe so strongly they are sick they will exhibit horrible symptoms of an ailment they don't have. It is by no means a stretch your mind can convince you that two sonically identical amplifiers sound entirely different.

Didn't you see David Copperfield make the Statue of Liberty disappear?

Or was that all in my head?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As bandphan pointed out, that's not a double blind test.

That was not even a SINGLE-blinded test.

Double-blinded means both the person GIVING the test and the person RECEIVING the test do NOT know which is which. Only the person SETTING up the test knows.

Single-blinded means the person giving the test knows, but the person RECEIVING the test does NOT know which is which.

 

[Rickster71]

Are you forgetting your Sony TA-3200F amp?

I think you mean my Sony TA-3200F.
Along with a great tuner the Sony ST-5130, thanks to Walter, I enjoy them almost every Saturday.
Surprisingly well made.

 

[Rickster71]

When I did my far east tour in the early 70's I changed systems at least twice a month.

Are you talking electronics, or the other Far East things we've discussed?

 

[just listening]

An interesting aside to this discussion....In the August issue of Affordable$$Audio there is a interesting article entitled "A Survey of Early Stereophonic System Subjective Listening Evaluation". It's not a hard read and quite informative from a historical context. From what I gather it was written by a full professor of Electrical Engineering, the author includes a full page of scientific references.

 

[walter duque]

Are you talking electronics, or the other Far East things we've discussed?

The other thing was at least twice to three times a day. Oh man those where the days. That's youth.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Get it right! You need to change a cap. Which, by the way, I'm putting on a Cardinals cap (football) this afternoon. It should make a huge change in sound since the QB throws lefty.

-pat

No chance without Kurt Warner.