All amps sound the same??? (Read Inside)

[Docks]

I have been doing alot of reading on amplification and have read many mixed opinions. Sooooo what do you guys think? Besides power and THD, all amplification should just grab the signal and amplify it, nothing more, nothing less. So.. the question remains why do some amps sound different? (besides tubes vs solid state) I have also read that many popular companies for home audio actually color or "voice" the sound to make it sound a certain way. This changes the sound in a way that many people would actually prefer it.
Many people also use pro audio (Behringer/QSC/Crown) for their home audio, I use a QSC amp with my paradigm s8's and it sounds nothing short of amazing. How do you guys feel about it? If a $400 Behringer colors a signal less than a $4000 McIntosh, does it mean the Behringer is better? Or do you feel that the voicing on the McIntosh although perhaps not as linear provides a better sound?

I think alot of this will be opinion... so lets hear it!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm sure you will get all kinds of answers.

In my personal experience, I can't tell any difference.

I've compared Acurus, AudioSource, Proton, Emotiva, ATI, Denon Integrated, HK receiver, Denon 5308, Denon 4810, and I can't tell any difference.

 

[tcarcio]

Well IMO, if you are listening at normal levels,YMMV, they sound the same. I think sound change doesn't happen until you start pushing the amp. So I guess the only difference to me would be build quality and not sound.

 

[j_garcia]

If you listened at the same level, an unclipped level, they should sound more similar than not. For a given SPL, you need a certain amount of power to listen without strain on the amp/speakers. More power simply raises the level at which that strain occurs more or less.

 

[tomd51]

My 2¢...

While I haven't had the opportunity to test as many amps as AcuDef, I've had my fair share of amps used in my home theater setup and I'd have to echo those sentiments.

If an amplifier is properly constructed and is not defective, it should be able to objectively perform according to its defined specifications. IOW, it should do exactly what the specs say it should do, whether it was designed as a pro amp or for in-home use. This is what I have experienced with all the amps I've used to this point... -TD

 

[lsiberian]

I'd say not all amps sound the same, but with quality ones you probably can't tell the difference. For example Tubes will sound different than solid state. And if your amp stinks it will sound terrible.

 

[ski2xblack]

...Many people also use pro audio (Behringer/QSC/Crown) for their home audio, I use a QSC amp with my paradigm s8's and it sounds nothing short of amazing. How do you guys feel about it? If a $400 Behringer colors a signal less than a $4000 McIntosh, does it mean the Behringer is better? Or do you feel that the voicing on the McIntosh although perhaps not as linear provides a better sound?

I think alot of this will be opinion... so lets hear it!

I wouldn't say a $400 Behringer colors a signal less than a SS McIntosh would. Typical Mac amplifier distortion specs are ridiculously low, way below the noise floor in any realistic room. The Behringer's specs I suspect to be somewhat worse, however, they are so low as to be inconsequential. (We're talking real hair-splitting differences, as in -80db -or less than -100db for the Mac- below signal in each case, niether of which would produce audible differences at all.)

Clean dynamic power is key for proper reproduction, which is why the pro-sumer Behringers and the like are such great values. To really get out of the way of the music, unclipped, unrestricted dynamic power is required. You'd be surprised at how often relatively entry-level gear clips on simple things like snare hits and piano music, without otherwise going into gross distortion. Dollar for dollar, the pro-sumer gear have headroom by the buckets and don't hiccup into wierd loads, giving you exquisitely clean reproduction. Better than Mac? Well, that seems more of a personal choice than something objectively measurable, since the measurements indicate they would be indistinguishable. I suspect a blind test would support that, but that's just an educated guess. As for value in the marketplace, I think it depends on the consumer's desires/susceptiblilty to marketing and fatness-of-wallet more than technical merits of the product, at least in this bizarre industry. (I'm not bagging MacIntosh here, for they make truly excellent products, but I would have to win the lotto to justify such purchases myself.)

The only amps that have their own sound, at least in my experience, are single-ended designs. These by definition (according to dogmatic adherents to the prevailing technical morality) are not 'hi-fi', but they do tend to have very pleasant sonic personalities.

 

[walter duque]

I know I must be totally wrong, it must be my imagination. Just to name a few poweramps that I have owened over the years:

A few Carvers (I don't even know how many)
VSP Labs Gold Edition
JVC Laboratory Mono Blocks
HK Mono Blocks
Treshold
AB International
Cinepro
B&K
Rotel
SAE
Nakamichi
but there was that one that stood out for me the most and by far my favorite amp and that was a Belles.

 

[werd]

Hello

I guess it depends on what you are looking for in an amp. Amps have different sound stage characteristics. I look for amps that image nice at low volumes. Some amps are noisey and congest. These arent suitable for low volume playback but are fine when ramped up with volume and play loud. Some are little brighter than other and find homes where people like piano and more acoustic oriented music. Find your taste then find your amp is the best advice.

woot!! first post

 

[adwilk]

Hello

I guess it depends on what you are looking for in an amp. Amps have different sound stage characteristics. I look for amps that image nice at low volumes. Some amps are noisey and congest. These arent suitable for low volume playback but are fine when ramped up with volume and play loud. Some are little brighter than other and find homes where people like piano and more acoustic oriented music. Find your taste then find your amp is the best advice.

woot!! first post

Welcome to the forum and thanks for posting...

HOWEVER, aren't words like "image" and "brighter" better suited to describe the sound produced by the speaker?

While I don't want to believe that every non-malfunctioning amp operating in its specified capable range "sounds" the same... They do.

 

[Docks]

If you had 400w of power which provides plenty of headroom how would the type of amp change the soundstage? All an amp should do is Amplify, I just feel that I am missing something because big mags like stereophile...etc have amp reviews. As long as the amp has reasonable THD characteristics and plenty of headroom, I think many pro amps can do this without any problem.

 

[jinjuku]

I currently own:

Adcom 5503
Crown DC300A
Parasound HCA1000a
Berhinger A500
Berhinger EP2500

The Crown is the one I can pick out at louder volume levels. The top end is more irritating.

At normal levels I couldn't tell you if it was the A500/Parasound/Adcom. The Adcom really steps up with the low/low mid when stepping on the gain knob.

The Parasound and A500 are neck and neck.

The XPA3 and NAD C272 were comparable. I personally think an amp should just spit out the input as accurately as possible. I am not a fan of getting an amp for it's 'Sonic' Signature because outside of engineering compromises (that can affect sound) you have an Amp designer that took it upon themselves to play god.

Hence why I only ever owned one Carver amp (M400) and why I got rid of it.

 

[Boerd]

I'm sure you will get all kinds of answers.

In my personal experience, I can't tell any difference.

I've compared Acurus, AudioSource, Proton, Emotiva, ATI, Denon Integrated, HK receiver, Denon 5308, Denon 4810, and I can't tell any difference.

Add to those names Marantz and Primare - never could tell the difference while NOT abusing the amp. If anything when you go for the abuse cheap amps like Marantz and especially Emotiva hold their own very well.
Not so the Primare - and I owned one.
Spend your money on speakers - that's what matters. Buying a good speaker can decrease the THD +N of the system from 5% (or 10% for bad speakers) at 90 db SPL to 1-3% - that is audible. Spending megabucks for an amp that does 0.000000000001 THD + N and 120 SNR/dynamic range compared to an Emotiva rated 0.1%THD at full power and 110 SNR will NOT make an audible difference. Even if you can measure these kind of differences you can't hear them. NO WAY.
You're blessed if you can sense a change of 1db SPL (0.5 would be exceptional - I'd say impossible).

 

[bandphan]

If you had 400w of power which provides plenty of headroom how would the type of amp change the soundstage? All an amp should do is Amplify, I just feel that I am missing something because big mags like stereophile...etc have amp reviews. As long as the amp has reasonable THD characteristics and plenty of headroom, I think many pro amps can do this without any problem.

Amp reviews can provide info into where the amp is lacking. If you look at design and components you can get an idea why all are not created equal at face value. Output stage, transformers, autoformers, power supplies, ect. all have bearing on the quality, longevity, safety, ect. Read Gene's review on class D amps (ICE in particular) and their operation might not be what one is looking for, however others may like the dynamic headroom. Ive played with tubes(older) that roll off high frequency, tubes (newer) that sound identical to ss amps. My theory is get the biggest(wpc) best quality amp you can afford.

 

[jinjuku]

I am not in the camp that all amps sound EXACTLY the same.

I am in the camp that all amps sound pretty close to each other (the ones that I have a/b'd).

While I haven't heard every amp under the sun I have yet to hear one amp that made what I would consider an OMG! true night and day difference.

That is what speakers are for.

 

[ski2xblack]

...but there was that one that stood out for me the most and by far my favorite amp and that was a Belles.

I'm not surprised you find that one outstanding, I'll bet it sounds sweet. Based on their published specs of current offerings, it looks like they produce amps of the 'measures worse but sounds better' class A type, but I could be completely wrong. I haven't heard Belles but I have listened to Pass/First Watts, which share a similar approach. They were distinctly tube-ish, with a very pleasant sonic personality*.

[sonic personality= any deviation from accurate reproduction of the signal, in this context referring to the typically euphonic, heavily 2nd-order dominated distortion spectra of class A ss and single-ended tube amps...careful, folks, this stuff is extremely habit-forming!]

 

[Pyrrho]

I have been doing alot of reading on amplification and have read many mixed opinions. Sooooo what do you guys think? Besides power and THD, all amplification should just grab the signal and amplify it, nothing more, nothing less. So.. the question remains why do some amps sound different? (besides tubes vs solid state) I have also read that many popular companies for home audio actually color or "voice" the sound to make it sound a certain way. This changes the sound in a way that many people would actually prefer it.
Many people also use pro audio (Behringer/QSC/Crown) for their home audio, I use a QSC amp with my paradigm s8's and it sounds nothing short of amazing. How do you guys feel about it? If a $400 Behringer colors a signal less than a $4000 McIntosh, does it mean the Behringer is better? Or do you feel that the voicing on the McIntosh although perhaps not as linear provides a better sound?

I think alot of this will be opinion... so lets hear it!

Some amplifiers will sound different if they were designed to distort the sound or are poorly made such that they distort the sound or are malfunctioning or if the amplifier is used beyond its capabilities (i.e., driven into clipping, etc.).

Here is a very expensive example of a poorly designed amplifier that would sound different from a good amplifier:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/

Measurements:

http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index5.html

$350k for crap! Just because someone has money, that does not mean they have brains...


But if we are dealing with two well-made, properly functioning amplifiers, and if we are using them within their capabilities, and if we carefully level match them, then humans cannot hear any difference. This is a simple fact: NO ONE HAS EVER DEMONSTRATED THE ABILITY TO HEAR ANY DIFFERENCE IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES. Despite years of trying. Mostly, though, people do not properly set up a test, and imagine that they can hear a difference (among those who claim such an ability). And, of course, if the amplifiers are not level matched, they might hear a difference, or if one is malfunctioning, or being used outside of its capabilities, etc.

So, the upshot is, an amplifier can make a difference, but typically it doesn't.

 

[highfigh]

I know I must be totally wrong, it must be my imagination. Just to name a few poweramps that I have owened over the years:

A few Carvers (I don't even know how many)
VSP Labs Gold Edition
JVC Laboratory Mono Blocks
HK Mono Blocks
Treshold
AB International
Cinepro
B&K
Rotel
SAE
Nakamichi
but there was that one that stood out for me the most and by far my favorite amp and that was a Belles.

Are you forgetting your Sony TA-3200F amp?

 

[Boerd]

...
But if we are dealing with two well-made, properly functioning amplifiers, and if we are using them within their capabilities, and if we carefully level match them, then humans cannot hear any difference. This is a simple fact: NO ONE HAS EVER DEMONSTRATED THE ABILITY TO HEAR ANY DIFFERENCE IN SUCH CIRCUMSTANCES. Despite years of trying. Mostly, though, people do not properly set up a test, and imagine that they can hear a difference (among those who claim such an ability). And, of course, if the amplifiers are not level matched, they might hear a difference, or if one is malfunctioning, or being used outside of its capabilities, etc.

So, the upshot is, an amplifier can make a difference, but typically it doesn't.
...

Agreed 100%
The above are called common sense and education.

 

[walter duque]

Are you forgetting your Sony TA-3200F amp?

Like I said, just to name a few. Didn't even get to Sony (That amp still sounds great even at todays standards, just ask Rick), Kenwood, Sansui, Pioneer, Sherwood, KLH, Marantz 4400 now that was nice in those days, just found a recent picture of that one, now that's going way back. When I did my far east tour in the early 70's I changed systems at least twice a month.