Affect of crossover on the tone and voice of a driver

T

thebrieze

Junior Audioholic
I’m curious if the crossover implementation affects the tone of a driver, or does is simply boost/lower gain at the crossover point to ensure a smooth and phase coherent transition between drivers.

My question is, how does a speaker designer using different drivers for tweeter and mid (for example) ensure a similar tone or voice across the frequency range.

Conversely, does the driver have its own voice and would sound similar across different manufacturers- or would different speakers using the same drivers sound different based on the crossover implementation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I’m curious if the crossover implementation affects the tone of a driver, or does is simply boost/lower gain at the crossover point to ensure a smooth and phase coherent transition between drivers.

My question is, how does a speaker designer using different drivers for tweeter and mid (for example) ensure a similar tone or voice across the frequency range.

Conversely, does the driver have its own voice and would sound similar across different manufacturers- or would different speakers using the same drivers sound different based on the crossover implementation?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Lets take your question one by one. So yes, the crossover is designed to result in a smooth frequency transition between drivers. Now the electrical slopes have to work in tandem with the slopes of their drivers and the drivers overall acoustic response.

As to phase then most crossovers are anything but phase coherent. A fourth order electrical crossover for instance is a whole cycle out of time at crossover, with the tweeter leading by a full cycle.

Drivers should not have a voice, but some do. However a huge part of good speaker design is driver selection. That takes experience. You can not just randomly order drivers off the net and expect you will have a decent speaker. If you do that, then the odds are overwhelming you will have a lousy speaker.

And yes, the same driver in different designers hands can sound markedly different.
 
T

thebrieze

Junior Audioholic
Thanks for that, very helpful. So would you say that the house sound for different designers comes more from the crossover or from driver selection?

My curiosity is more as a hobbyist trying to understand speaker design rather than a diyer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for that, very helpful. So would you say that the house sound for different designers comes more from the crossover or from driver selection?

My curiosity is more as a hobbyist trying to understand speaker design rather than a diyer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's an interesting question and I'm not sure.

I think the answer lies largely in intangibles in the area we do not, or can not easily measure.

I know there are commercial outfits, that have a so called "house sound" but those are definite aberrations.

Despite that, even among the best of designs the designers experience and preferences come into to play. I think a lot of this is developed over time from the designers musical preferences.

I think this comes down to the power band response. You don't really get a sense of that from standard measurements.

I always aim for a flat response and wide dispersion and so do a lot of others. Yet, listeners and friends say they can tell my speakers. I think this has two reasons likely, although I really don't know.

The first is that I listen to classical music pretty much exclusively as a choice. Now a good deal of this program has its major power response in the midrange. Therefore I think I have instinctively devoted more power resources to that range than is usually the custom. So my designs do tend to have a higher power capability in that band. It is not emphasized but it can deliver the goods and not ran out of gas when the orchestra is in full cry and even a choir added on top. So listeners with experience tend to point to the realism and fullness of that power and in my design. I realized long ago the enormous power in that 80 to 1.5 KHz and even a bit above power band. As I said this has nothing to do with a frequency elevation just the power band response and that is something we hardly ever talk about.

The second issue, at least for me, is the bass balance and above all its quality. Live sounds are in general free of boom. For speakers this means that bass needs to sound non resonant. Unfortunately most forms of loudspeaker bass reproduction involves resonance to the point where bass is artificially bloated to varying degrees.
This is the issue of the bass tuning, and I have a strong preference for low Q designs. This approach leads to the rest of the spectrum being more transparent.

In the end I suspect a lot of this is not easily quantifiable currently, so I think designers are led by their experience and preferences. I know I am.
 
T

thebrieze

Junior Audioholic
That’s right I’ve rarely seen people talk about power band response, and it does answer my question about influencing the sound of the driver within its operating range, and why the same driver might sound different in different speakers.

I’ve read statements like transmission line speakers reduce boominess of the bass and “sound” different by coupling to the room, but never understood it. Wouldn’t different rooms have completely different coupling?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
That’s right I’ve rarely seen people talk about power band response, and it does answer my question about influencing the sound of the driver within its operating range, and why the same driver might sound different in different speakers.

I’ve read statements like transmission line speakers reduce boominess of the bass and “sound” different by coupling to the room, but never understood it. Wouldn’t different rooms have completely different coupling?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well obviously all rooms have a an impact on the sound. However a speaker with a poor transient response and high Q is going to excite room modes to a much greater extent because of the time factor and degree of excitation. Lastly there is that strange factor about pipes that organ builders refer to as encircling. Which is the ability to uniformly fill a room, unlike a speaker cone whose intensity rapidly falls with distance. I really don't believe that phenomenon is clearly understood.

You can verify it though. If you go to a church with a pipe organ and then one with an electronic one with speakers, the pipe organ appears to uniformly fill the space. The electronic one is loud near the speakers and not at the rear of the church. So a congregation feels much better supported by the pipe organ than the electronic one and will sing more lustily.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
So a congregation feels much better supported by the pipe organ than the electronic one and will sing more lustily.
The congregation sings lustily? What kind of church do you go to!? :eek:
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
The congregation sings lustily? What kind of church do you go to!? :eek:
Need to get out your dictionary Shady!

Lustily: -
synonyms:heartily, vigorously, loudly, at the top of one's voice, with all one's might, with might and main, powerfully, forcefully, strongly.

I think you confused it with the word lustfully and I think most know that has a totally different meaning.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
England and America are two countries separated by a common language.
George Bernard Shaw

Americans are identical to the British in all respects except, of course, language.
Oscar Wilde

Jesus, I'm dyin' for a fag. Or a cigarette, I should say to avoid any Transatlantic confusion.
Cassidy, Preacher

In Canada we have enough to do keeping up with two spoken languages without trying to invent slang, so we just go right ahead and use English for literature, Scotch for sermons, and American for conversation.
Stephen Leacock

(I think he meant Scottish, not Scotch, for sermons ;). However, I cannot rule out the use of Scotch in British churches, as that might explain how the congregations sing so lustily.)
 
Last edited:
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
You can verify it though. If you go to a church with a pipe organ and then one with an electronic one with speakers, the pipe organ appears to uniformly fill the space. The electronic one is loud near the speakers and not at the rear of the church. So a congregation feels much better supported by the pipe organ than the electronic one and will sing more lustily.
When my organ is played, I sing more lustily, but I try to avoid that situation in church! Just sayin'!

Edit: I see ShadyJ beat me to it. I did check on the definition of lustily, figuring lustfully was in the good doctor's lexicon. Nonetheless, it seemed irresistibly low hanging fruit for innuendo!

...and I think I should get some credit for restraint in not making a smart-assed comment about changes in the tone and voice of transexual truckdrivers!
 
Last edited:
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Need to get out your dictionary Shady!

Lustily: -
synonyms:heartily, vigorously, loudly, at the top of one's voice, with all one's might, with might and main, powerfully, forcefully, strongly.

I think you confused it with the word lustfully and I think most know that has a totally different meaning.
I'm not so sure!
I may just have a unique lapse in my vocabulary, but lustily was not a word I was aware of before you used it!
I might have said something like sing "with zeal".
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm not so sure!
I may just have a unique lapse in my vocabulary, but lustily was not a word I was aware of before you used it!
I might have said something like sing "with zeal".
I've seen it used and understood it. When I see or hear a word I haven't before it leaves an impression on me and I never forget it. I believe in and support diversity in vocabulary!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Even if churchy folk are being lustfull vs lusty, not interesting...
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I assumed you were being serious...I don't find churches amusing tho, more anachronisms, and stupid reasons behind too many wars and their politics...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I assumed you were being serious...I don't find churches amusing tho, more anachronisms, and stupid reasons behind too many wars and their politics...
This has nothing to do with churches or religion, but an amusing misunderstanding of the English language. It is actually very funny, though somewhat at Shady's expense. I'm sure he will take it in good part.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
What does a speaker power band response mean?
If you measure the FR of a speaker it will not tell you the output as a rule over any selected frequency range.

So the band response is what ever FR range you select say 400 Hz to 2.5 KHz, or any band you want. Then you want to know what is the power the speaker can output in that band.

This is never mentioned in reviews or specs.

However most crossover programs will give you this data, mine certainly does. So to me as a designer that is crucial data.

It also shows why a bookshelf with a 5" driver will not deliver the slam of a good tower speaker with a couple of good 7" drivers with potent motor systems.

That gets to another point when just comparing FR and other measured data. The design of the motor system, especially its design, robustness and linearity at higher powers is so important.

If you think I'm saying we make selections and dish out advice on too little real world data you are correct.
 
T

thebrieze

Junior Audioholic
It also shows why a bookshelf with a 5" driver will not deliver the slam of a good tower speaker with a couple of good 7" drivers with potent motor systems.

/QUOTE]

At the same volume level?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top