Advise for a HT Club combo setup

C

csh

Enthusiast
So we are finishing our basement and i want a decent HT setup. We do entertain a lot so wife wants a club like setup (dance party with around 30 guests who like loud music). Our basement is open and we want it to stay open as much as possible so want to avoid speakers on the floor and out budget for everything including screen, speakers, amp, sub is max 8K CAD (maybe a bit more). I can run power/speaker wires myself. Can you guys make recommendations on
1) Speakers/sub with high enough SPL to produce club like sound as well as good HT sound.
2) Speaker placement in the complicated open basement
3) Cost around 8K CAD
4) Screen and AMP recommendations
5) Anything else i should think of
 

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
So we are finishing our basement and i want a decent HT setup. We do entertain a lot so wife wants a club like setup (dance party with around 30 guests who like loud music). Our basement is open and we want it to stay open as much as possible so want to avoid speakers on the floor and out budget for everything including screen, speakers, amp, sub is max 8K CAD (maybe a bit more). I can run power/speaker wires myself. Can you guys make recommendations on
1) Speakers/sub with high enough SPL to produce club like sound as well as good HT sound.
2) Speaker placement in the complicated open basement
3) Cost around 8K CAD
4) Screen and AMP recommendations
5) Anything else i should think of
Everyone would like to get a quart into a pint pot!

You are really asking for the impossible, at least at that budget.

You instructions a vague in the extreme. Are you wanting bookshelf, or in wall speakers?

The issue is that small speakers are not efficient (Hoffman's iron law). So that means lots of power and therefore voice coil heating and burnt out speakers.

I know of no commercial solutions of small very high spl. speakers for a space as large as that. There are a few small drivers around with high powered motor systems, but I'm not aware of commercial designs that use them. I have designed and built a very high spl. in wall system for our great room, but there is no commercial equivalent.

So how big are you prepared to have the speakers. If they are not to be on the floor, then where?
 
C

csh

Enthusiast
Sorry you are right i am vague. The front and the centre channel could be floor mounted. The left is in wall and there is no space for right or rear so i am thinking 5.1 instead of 7.1
Are there any good ones that can be mounted on the ceiling?
Any PA grade ones come close to HT quality?
Also what sub?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
I would be looking at some QSC K2 speakers run in 'monitor' mode, and a processor like maybe a Marantz 7705. For subs, I would be looking at some Paradigm Defiance X15s.
 
flyboylr45

flyboylr45

Full Audioholic
You could also look into the JBL Control series...
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
JBL Control speakers are not very good. They are used extensively in commercial installations because they are cheap, not because they sound good.

I will agree with others here. What CLUB have you been into which uses in-wall speakers? If your answer is "NONE!" then congratulations, you can't have it in your home either.

You could put in 500 in-wall/ceiling speakers and you aren't going to get the output or response that you get from proper speakers that are used in clubs. The reality is that you are much better served by providing two systems. One for high quality audio for surround sound, which is designed for precision, and another set of speakers which are designed to produce SPL levels that are more akin to what you experience in a club. These types of speakers tend to not perform well at lower levels and do a very good job of delivering high sound levels with good quality and very good endurance (they won't blow up).

So, I might consider a decent set of in-walls/in-ceilings in the appropriate spaces for your surround system, then roll out the 'loud' speakers when you want the room to be a club.
Then get two or four of these...
or these...

I think I put in a set of the KW153's predecessors into a home and I can say that they were exactly the solution they were looking for after having 8 in-ceiling 8" 3-way speakers plus 2 10" in-wall subwoofers left them feeling quite lacking.

If you want more bass response, there are also matching subwoofers...

This is the difference between home theater, which gets loud, but sounds excellent and can play at reference levels politely, and club speakers which get well beyond those levels and feel much more like a proper nightclub. I have yet to see any home theater speaker which can reach the sound levels of club speakers at anywhere near the cost. Shure, you can get some B&W 801s to do it. Some Meridian DSP8000's will do it as well. But, you are suddenly spending 10 times your budget on a single speaker, which just doesn't work.

Be aware, the QSC speakers I linked above are active, very large, and will need to be 'stored' when not in use if you want to keep the room clean. I'm sure you have planned a proper storage space for your basement, so storing some proper speakers to meet the demands of the room will be fine.

The final thought... This is not a minor consideration what I just laid out above and may not be ideal for what you were hoping for. That's fine. Don't buy them right away. Just understand that after 20+ years of doing this, I've learned that there is a huge difference between a club sound and a home theater sound and people that want a room that sounds like a nightclub are not happy with in-walls/ceilings. But, if you WIRE for freestanding nightclub style speakers when you are building out the space. You can buy them later. You can run XLR cabling, or if you want passive speakers, you can wire 12 gauge speaker wire to a few locations around the room, and you can just buy the equipment for it at a later date. But, plan now! Wire now! The wiring is cheap, but after the walls are up and you can't put wires in place anymore, then you are in real trouble if you want to add wiring later on down the road.

But, if you want that club sound, as others have said, you aren't going to get there with in-wall speakers as has been my experience.
 
C

csh

Enthusiast
I spoke to a local vendor and they are proposing the following for around $14K. What are your thoughts on if i will be able to get club like SPL


Elunevision reference studio 4k audioweave screen slim (0.75 thin bezel), 125” 16:9

JVC NZ3 Projector

Denon 3700H 9.2 channel receiver (4k/8k)

Speakercraft Profile aim cinema one x3 (behind the screen)

https://www.speakercraft.com/product/profile-aim-cinema-one-ASM59101

Dynamic audio labs 6.5” in-ceiling x6

https://www.dynamicaudiolabs.com/kvsc-65.html

martin logan dynamo subwoofer 1100X (12” sub)

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/dynamo-1100x
 
C

csh

Enthusiast
Thanks for your reply. So how many of the QSC's will we need. Will 2 b ok? I think i can set up a separte zone on the amp for the QSC's. the question is about subs. Are there any common subs available that serve dual purpose or will i need to get extra sub too? How many subs?
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
I spoke to a local vendor and they are proposing the following for around $14K. What are your thoughts on if i will be able to get club like SPL


Elunevision reference studio 4k audioweave screen slim (0.75 thin bezel), 125” 16:9

JVC NZ3 Projector

Denon 3700H 9.2 channel receiver (4k/8k)

Speakercraft Profile aim cinema one x3 (behind the screen)

https://www.speakercraft.com/product/profile-aim-cinema-one-ASM59101

Dynamic audio labs 6.5” in-ceiling x6

https://www.dynamicaudiolabs.com/kvsc-65.html

martin logan dynamo subwoofer 1100X (12” sub)

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/dynamo-1100x
LOL!

No. That will not get close to anything like club SPLs.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Just what clubs do you go to might be a good question here? :)
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic General
I spoke to a local vendor and they are proposing the following for around $14K. What are your thoughts on if i will be able to get club like SPL


Elunevision reference studio 4k audioweave screen slim (0.75 thin bezel), 125” 16:9

JVC NZ3 Projector

Denon 3700H 9.2 channel receiver (4k/8k)

Speakercraft Profile aim cinema one x3 (behind the screen)

https://www.speakercraft.com/product/profile-aim-cinema-one-ASM59101

Dynamic audio labs 6.5” in-ceiling x6

https://www.dynamicaudiolabs.com/kvsc-65.html

martin logan dynamo subwoofer 1100X (12” sub)

https://www.martinlogan.com/en/product/dynamo-1100x
You would probably fry all those speakers just trying to get Like like spl , buy some
Get some pro subs , I don’t think you can avoid Subs on your flooorplan . They make stands for pro speakers.
Hifi subs will not work with your budget and pro subs are fine for music plus have fans to not burn out .
Do some research on how to hook all these speakers up , with an avr you gotta run all channels stereo . Powered speakers are what I’d use mostly .
8k budget might not be enough... find a friend or someone who can use a dj mixer or something.... or buy a 11ch receiver.
Cinema speakers and in walls won’t cut it for a long long session of music .
Don’t go too loud without hearing protection either . Get spl meters
Or get professional help , advice ... ask online not in a store trying to rip you off selling you in wall speakers there junk .
Go to guitar center or something too...may need something special to hook up 10-20 speakers.
You may need duel 18-22” speakers which budget is too low . Or use lots of 15s
The larger speakers you get less you need .
 
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C

csh

Enthusiast
Thanks for your reply. I keep reading articles about how effective the Behringer's are for HT but the two local companies i have spoken to are poo pooing saying that those speakers are for schools and not for basement.
Will they work reasonably well? If yes then, I am thinking about getting 5 X Behringer Eurolive B215XL speakers and Behringer VP1800S 1600W 18 inch Passive Subwoofer. Somethings i will need help with are:
1) 1 sub or 2 sub. If 2 then should i get the 18inches or 2 X 15 inches.
2) What amp to power them?
3) Is there a way to hide the front LCR speakers behind the screen or build something custom. I can get the basement installers to build something for me?
4) Ideas on the screen/projector to buy?
5) Any other feedback

You know i hear the installer comments and then i read this so i am a little tentative going with the behringer's

I have had few hifi speakers. KEF Q series, Q Acoustics, Martin Logans, B&W 6 series, Polks signature range, Awia, technics, Krix, JBL 4312, and Custom mades, they were all great and I liked all of them for hifi, some were better than others and some were even so good looking that I kept them just for looks, but when it comes to home cinema, these just didn't cut it. They just didn't sound big and meaty. I still have quite a few pairs that I have kept for hifi listening. So, I am not saying, I don't like them, I am saying for me these Berries are just perfect for home cinema (for movies).

They are huge but so were some of the HiFi speakers I have had.

Powering them is same way you power any hifi speakers. These just need speakon connectors instead of banana, spade or bare wire with hifi speaker. No changes in the AVR or the power amps.

Horns are loud and is used in many cinema. Saying that, I wouldn't say they are perfect for music listening.

I have briefly had klipch speakers a long time ago and don't remember what model, I didn't like them, they sounded too harsh and boxy, have not gone back to trying out that brand again.


For me, Star Trek opening scene is a good demo to test. Specially the Nero's ship dropping out of storm clouds and that sound that portrays hugeness of said ship and chest thump that comes along with it.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
The Behringers are fine for the money, but they are cheap. The Behringer subwoofer doesn't do deep bass, it probably won't dig deeper than 40Hz. The Eurolive speakers don't dig much below 100Hz if I remember right. It's a fine system if you need loud for cheap, but don't expect an exquisite hi-fi sound. You are going to need pro-style amplifiers to get club level SPLs. I would be looking at Crown or QSC amps for a setup like that.
 
Kingnoob

Kingnoob

Audioholic General
LOL!

No. That will not get close to anything like club SPLs.
Not a good system for 14k either.....
Laughable

Subs similar to this one https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DXS18XLF--yamaha-dxs18xlf-1600w-18-inch-powered-subwoofer



 
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C

csh

Enthusiast
Looks like the Rockville has the best low end frequency response of all the subs getting close to HT subs
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks for your reply. So how many of the QSC's will we need. Will 2 b ok? I think i can set up a separte zone on the amp for the QSC's. the question is about subs. Are there any common subs available that serve dual purpose or will i need to get extra sub too? How many subs?
@csh , I would be a bit wary of @Kingnoob (all respect here). He posts a lot, but he is very new in his understanding of AV in general and he is neither an installer or a owner of higher-end gear. He's just a beginner enthusiast. This matters. This is also why you should read some reviews.

Before installing the QSCs for my client, I asked several live installers and engineers, and while they made some different recommendations, when I asked about QSC, every time they said, well it costs a few hundred more, but they sound better. So, I rolled with a few hundred bucks more. The client is very happy, but he is still considering to get the matching subwoofer to go along with it. So, your expectations of bass response from these large, loud, powerful speakers should be kept in check with the fact that they still also sell subwoofers specifically designed to go along with them. I would EXPECT two speakers to be plenty loud enough, but you may want the 2 subwoofers that match them as well.

At the end of the day, you will want to WIRE for the speakers. That doesn't mean you have to buy them. It means you have wires, behind your walls, running to the Denon receiver, which you can use in the future if you so desire. You may never buy them, and you may never use them, but they are there, doing absolutely nothing and being quite happy. So, run four wires. Actually, think about whether you want to do amplification within your equipment rack, or at the speaker, then run the appropriate wiring to each location, but I would plan on nothing less than 12 gauge speaker wire, four conductors. This will give you a main speaker, plus a subwoofer if it is needed. AND/OR 2 runs of 2 conductor+drain balanced audio cabling. Which is what you would use for powered loudspeakers like I linked to above. Some clubs run audio in mono, not stereo, so that's something to keep in mind. Depends on the club layout and the sound engineer.

I like what your installer is saying to you, but I would keep in mind that they are using product which all has pretty significant mark up. I would get the Epson 5050 over the JVC. I would get a SilverTicket woven screen over the Elunevision. If you buy those two pieces alone, you are likely to save a fair bit of money.

A 125" screen is appropriate for a 12 foot viewing distance. How far away from the screen do you plan to sit? You want NO LESS than 10" of diagonal for each foot of viewing distance.
SilverTicket 135" model: https://www.silverticketproducts.com/products/str-169135-wvs
Maybe half the price of the similarly performing Elunevision, and it has a proper frame, which you should be using.

Do you plan to paint your room dark? Is the space actually setup to be a theater-like space at all? Or do you plan to leave your ceilings white and your walls bright colors and have bright floors?
What material do you plan to use on the floors?
Front projection is no joke in terms of tradeoffs and compromises. A projector like the Epson 5050 (or the JVC) is great in a dark room, but starts to lose out when you have a brighter room or lights on and lots of reflections off of surfaces. You also should consider not just ambient light, but lighting in general.

I'm reasonably happy with what Speakercraft has to offer. They aren't price leaders, but they are reasonable for the money. There are no price leaders when it comes to quality in-wall speakers that I'm aware of, so when you get into better in-wall speakers, these are solid. You have to go to Triad, or someone similar for really high-quality in-walls and they are a lot more expensive.

There is nothing about the in-ceiling speakers which makes me think they are one bit better than Monoprice...

I use Monoprice all the time for my jobs and don't mark them up like crazy. I make a few bucks, and save the customer a lot. When going with basic in-ceiling 6" or 8" models, or basic in-walls on a budget, then these models perform very well. I just had a guy who is dropping several million into building his dream home come over and listen to my Monoprice speakers... He was like "YUP! Those sound like they will be great throughout my house." - So, don't overspend unless you are going to get a really high quality in-ceiling (once again, Triad).

Love Denon, it will do you fine. Love Yamaha as well, I have no real favorite in that horse race.

The subwoofer is inadequate for the room under normal home theater use. It's sorely lacking in reality. I would be all over asking for good deals on subwoofers, but your space is huge and home theater subs are nothing like club subs. They sound quite different, but I would be looking at 13" or larger models with a lot more power and I would be looking at a minimum of 2, but perhaps more.

Be aware, that if you have unfinished space abutting your finished space, it may offer you a place to hide a larger subwoofer.

You can't have something for nothing. Club speakers are LARGE! They are huge! You really should go to a club with your wife and look specifically at the electronics while you are there. See how they have dedicated sections for amplification, for control, and that they have huge speakers everywhere. If there is a stage, there is a good chance some speakers/subs may even be under it to help fill the space.

Hopefully, you can take your time and do some homework on this.
 

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