GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
In the market for a new AVR. Lightning struck near the house last night and took out my AVR-S930H that I've been looking to upgrade. Now I don't have a choice I need to buy a new AVR. I'm planning on running a 5.1.4 with Bowers and Wilkins 603 and center as the fronts. I spoke with Accessories4less today and he recommended the Pioneer SC-LX701 which was a curve ball to me as I've been looking at the Denon or Marantz. The AVR will be mounted in a cabinet which is open on the front and partially on the back. The opening is 25wx18dx11h. Looking for what you would recommend based on your experience.My budget is $1000-$1500. Thanks in advance.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
In the market for a new AVR. Lightning struck near the house last night and took out my AVR-S930H that I've been looking to upgrade. Now I don't have a choice I need to buy a new AVR. I'm planning on running a 5.1.4 with Bowers and Wilkins 603 and center as the fronts. I spoke with Accessories4less today and he recommended the Pioneer SC-LX701 which was a curve ball to me as I've been looking at the Denon or Marantz. The AVR will be mounted in a cabinet which is open on the front and partially on the back. The opening is 25wx18dx11h. Looking for what you would recommend based on your experience.My budget is $1000-$1500. Thanks in advance.
I would without hesitation recommend the Denon AVR-X3600H. Also suggested are a couple of AC Infinity fans on top to help keeping it cooler:



I realize that you have been using B & W speakers for the three front channels. Those speakers have an impedance that digs down to 3 ohms at 65 Hz or so. If you are not using a subwoofer, there is a strong possibility that this AVR will struggle with that low impedance. I suggest that you also get a good powered subwoofer from SVS, Hsu or Monoprice to complement your set-up and set the AVR LFE crossover to 90 or 100 Hz to relieve it from the low frequency load.
 
Last edited:
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
If you do a brand search under Pioneer, that AVR is the only item left.
I have to believe that Pioneer has discontinued sales through Accessories4Less. Perhaps Pioneer felt having D&M and Yamaha on the same pages did not help sales of their refurbs!
A4L probably wants to clear out the last of these.
That doesn't mean it is a bad deal, they likely discounted this to accelerate clearing it out of their inventory!
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
In the market for a new AVR. Lightning struck near the house last night and took out my AVR-S930H that I've been looking to upgrade. Now I don't have a choice I need to buy a new AVR. I'm planning on running a 5.1.4 with Bowers and Wilkins 603 and center as the fronts. I spoke with Accessories4less today and he recommended the Pioneer SC-LX701 which was a curve ball to me as I've been looking at the Denon or Marantz. The AVR will be mounted in a cabinet which is open on the front and partially on the back. The opening is 25wx18dx11h. Looking for what you would recommend based on your experience.My budget is $1000-$1500. Thanks in advance.
In order to prevent such catastrophic failure from happening again, if you cannot get a hole house surge protector because you don't own the house or live in an apartment, I strongly suggest that you get a good surge protector such as the APC H15 to connect your HT system to:

 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
I seem to remember the guy running A4L favors Pioneer....whether for profit or other reasons I don't know. I like Denon myself but that's more for Audyssey, without that consideration others could be attractive. Feature/connectivity/amp section you like at price you like where you can get it....that's what I think of mostly.
 
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
I would without hesitation recommend the Denon AVR-X3600H. Also suggested are a couple of AC Infinity fans on top to help keeping it cooler:



I realize that you have been using B & W speakers for the three front channels. Those speakers have an impedance that digs down to 3 ohms at 65 Hz or so. If you are not using a subwoofer, there is a strong possibility that this AVR will struggle with that low impedance. I suggest that you also get a good powered subwoofer from SVS, Hsu or Monoprice to complement your set-up and set the AVR LFE crossover to 90 or 100 Hz to relieve it from the low frequency load.

Thanks for the detailed information! I do have a HSU sub. My only concern is the wattage. I keep hearing the B&W speakers are power hungry. I plan on getting a dedicated line run to my entertainment system but right now I have so many devices on the circuit adding fans and an external amplifier might overload the breaker.
 
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
If you do a brand search under Pioneer, that AVR is the only item left.
I have to believe that Pioneer has discontinued sales through Accessories4Less. Perhaps Pioneer felt having D&M and Yamaha on the same pages did not help sales of their refurbs!
A4L probably wants to clear out the last of these.
That doesn't mean it is a bad deal, they likely discounted this to accelerate clearing it out of their inventory!

Thanks KEW. That's what I was afraid of and makes perfect sense. He was really pushing the Pioneer and said they don't get the cheering section like the D&M models. I was looking at the X4500h or the SR7013 but being in a cabinet I was afraid of the heat they generate being that it will be in an open cabinet?
 
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
In order to prevent such catastrophic failure from happening again, if you cannot get a hole house surge protector because you don't own the house or live in an apartment, I strongly suggest that you get a good surge protector such as the APC H15 to connect your HT system to:


I do have 2 Monster MPAV800 surge protector's that I use and have every socket is in use. It only took out the receiver and a Amazon Fire Cube and everything else was fine. I'm ordering a whole house surge protector today to mount in the panel box. I have a friend who is an electrician and told me of a couple different options I can use and he will wire it up for me.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for the detailed information! I do have a HSU sub. My only concern is the wattage. I keep hearing the B&W speakers are power hungry. I plan on getting a dedicated line run to my entertainment system but right now I have so many devices on the circuit adding fans and an external amplifier might overload the breaker.
The B & W 603s have a sensitivity of about 87 dB which is average. But whether there is a possibility of tripping, I assume a 15 amp breaker, with all the connected equipment, it depends on the size of your listening room, your listening distance from the speakers, the type of music and movies you play and how loud you like to listen. There is a strong possibility that you won't have any problem. Some music and action movies have signal peaks mostly lasting a fraction of a second or so. Power supply capacitors of power amps handle most of the signal peaks without drawing any additional AC current from the wall. Moreover, a breaker is not like a fuse, it will accept an overload for several seconds.

Look at my situation. My listening position is 10 feet from the front speakers. I am using an AVR as a preamp-processor. It drives 4 QSC Cinema amps with a total power rating of over 3,000 watts on 4 ohm loads. The speakers have a sensitivity very close to that of the 603s. A 50" Panasonic TV draws 400-500 watts. The maximum SPL peak I would listen to is about 85-90 dB. Most of the time the amps output less than 3 watts with peak demands never reaching 30 watts. All this equipment is plugged onto a 15 amp breaker without a hitch.
 
Last edited:
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I do have 2 Monster MPAV800 surge protector's that I use and have every socket is in use. It only took out the receiver and a Amazon Fire Cube and everything else was fine. I'm ordering a whole house surge protector today to mount in the panel box. I have a friend who is an electrician and told me of a couple different options I can use and he will wire it up for me.
Since you had the advice of an expert behind your decision, do you mind sharing which options he recommended?
I am curious to get an idea of what this would cost!
Thanks!
 
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
The B & W 603s have a sensitivity of about 87 dB which is average. But whether there is a possibility of tripping, I assume a 15 amp breaker, with all the connected equipment, it depends on the size of your listening room, your listening distance from the speakers, the type of music and movies you play and how loud you like to listen. There is a strong possibility that you won't have any problem. Some music and action movies have signal peaks mostly lasting a fraction of a second or so. Power supply capacitors of power amps handle most of the signal peaks without drawing any additional AC current from the wall. Moreover, a breaker is not like a fuse, it will accept an overload for several seconds.

Look at my situation. My listening position is 10 feet from the front speakers. I am using an AVR as a preamp-processor. It drives 4 QSC Cinema amps with a total power rating of over 3,000 watts on a 4 ohms load. The speakers have a sensitivity very close to that of the 603s. A 50" Panasonic TV draws 400-500 watts. The maximum SPL I would listen to is about 85-90 dB. Most of the time the amps output less than 3 watts with peak demands never exceeding 30 watts. All this equipment is plugged onto a 15 amp breaker without a hitch.

Very useful info Verdinut. I've sold electrical items for 20+ years so I know just enough to be dangerous. When they built my house they put the maximum load they could on that particular circuit. One of the biggest issues I got is there is a microwave in the mix. I've only had one instance where the breaker tripped in over 3yrs. I also have a small outdoor TV, sound bar and led patio lights on the same circuit that are in use most of the time. The Denon AVR-S930H I believe had a power consumption of 460W. The Marantz SR7013 or Denon X4500H has 710W which is about a additional 2 amp power draw. I normally listen at 65-85DB. Do you think stepping up to a higher power consumption will cause any more power draw?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
Very useful info Verdinut. I've sold electrical items for 20+ years so I know just enough to be dangerous. When they built my house they put the maximum load they could on that particular circuit. One of the biggest issues I got is there is a microwave in the mix. I've only had one instance where the breaker tripped in over 3yrs. I also have a small outdoor TV, sound bar and led patio lights on the same circuit that are in use most of the time. The Denon AVR-S930H I believe had a power consumption of 460W. The Marantz SR7013 or Denon X4500H has 710W which is about a additional 2 amp power draw. I normally listen at 65-85DB. Do you think stepping up to a higher power consumption will cause any more power draw?
In your situation, I think I would get an additional circuit installed so I would no longer have to question the possibility of a tripping breaker.
 
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
Since you had the advice of an expert behind your decision, do you mind sharing which options he recommended?
I am curious to get an idea of what this would cost!
Thanks!

The first option would require a double pole breaker space in your panel box. It's a double pole breaker with a neutral pigtail that hooks to your neutral bar in your panel box. You would need to know what type of breaker your panel box requires. In my case I have a Challenger panel box that uses an Eaton BR style breaker or a Sq D Homeline type breaker. The electrician recommended I get the Sq D as they are suppose to be more reliable, I think it's just a matter of preference. Part # I ordered was HOM120GFI. We buy directly from a breaker house but since manufacturing has been shut down in various parts of the world they were completely out. I found one left on Ebay for @ $37.00. I was told this will protect the whole house. It wires a little differently than a standard breaker as the hot and neutral hook into the breaker and the neutral pigtail hooks into the neutral bar on you panel box.
The other option he recommended is part# HEPD80. These run around $100. Since this device doesn't snap in to you panel box the brand of your box shouldn't matter. The electrician said you would wire it up and sit it at the bottom of the panel box. He said if this was something I could do myself since I have run romex and wired up receptacles in the past, but since he's willing to do it I feel better having a professional installing it. Not to mention my wife constantly questioning me if I wired up correctly!

If anyone needs help in identifying which double pole surge suppressor you need for your particular panel box let me know. I'll be glad to help you get the correct part#.
 
Last edited:
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Thanks KEW. That's what I was afraid of and makes perfect sense. He was really pushing the Pioneer and said they don't get the cheering section like the D&M models. I was looking at the X4500h or the SR7013 but being in a cabinet I was afraid of the heat they generate being that it will be in an open cabinet?
I always recommend this if you have a place for the air to exhaust to! I run mine on low whenever my AVR is on and I never notice them, but my Denon 4400 AVR stays cool (only slightly warmer than room temp)!

If the space in your cabinet is not well ventilated, or if the AVR is too close to the shelf above it, then one of the front or rear exhaust versions of these is best:
I would prefer the rear exhaust as the front exhaust is more likely to be audible, but if your only ventilation is out the front that is the one to get. Not that the front or rear Aircom units essentially place a slelf immediately above these fans, so if you have extra height clearance, you can put hockey pucks under the feet to allow very easy airflow into the bottom of the AVR!

If your cabinet has a door or you just want to supplement, one of these is useful to ventilate the cabinet (marginally as a stand alone, but in addition to one of the above you've got no heat issues):

Other comments on these:
1) Several of these have the option of a thermostatic control (designated by a T as in T8). This is what I have and if I was doing it over, I would not get the thermostat! Not only will you save money, but anytime the thermostat kicks the fan on (when the sound is quiet), I notice the fan starting up. I assume the fan pulls more power and is louder during start-up. Once it is running steady at low speed, it is quiet. Of course the thermostat is also more likely to be a failure point.
2) Where possible, use a two (or three) fan unit. That way were a fan to fail, you would not lose all ventilation and hopefully you would notice before the second one failed (although most modern electronics are pretty graceful with their thermal overload switch) and could replace the unit. Happily most of the failure include annoying noises that would get your attention (these are essentially PC fans which you may have heard when a bearing is going bad or dust is causing interference).
3) If you have an enclosed cabinet, put the Airplate up high (heat rises) as an exhaust fan to pull hot air out. If you ever lived in a house with an attic fan in use you will appreciate this easier, but you need to think about where you are drawing air from and how it will flow through the cabinet to the fan. You want to encourage it to flow through you AVR (and other electronics that generate heat). Often, this may mean pulling a shelf out and drilling holes (match their location to the vent holes in the bottom of your AVR) and you may also need to seal a gap at the back of the shelf (Home Depot has lots of foam strips, etc similar to how you would seal a window fan or AC).
If you do need to drill holes in the shelf, use a 3/4" hole saw (like the image below $10 at Lowes.com). The reason I am specifying a hole saw like this is you will end up with cleaner holes. With most drill bits, you will end up with a mess when the bit exits the back side of the shelf (especially with some of the laminate finishes being used). With the hole saw, drill from one side until the center bit sticks out the back side (do not push hard, let the tool cut, I would try it on a piece of scrap wood if you are a hole saw virgin - maybe apply three pounds of force behind the tool), then, simply stick the bit in the hole and finish cutting the hole from the back side. That way you never have the tear out from the saw actually exiting through the finished surface!


I would leave 1/2" between holes just to make sure you do not reduce the strength of the shelf. Also keep all holes inside the rectangle you would have if you drew lines inside the feet of your AVR. As long as you stay inside the feet, the shelf does not see much load anyway!
 
Last edited:
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
I always recommend this if you have a place for the air to exhaust to! I run mine on low whenever my AVR is on and I never notice them, but my Denon 4400 AVR stays cool (only slightly warmer than room temp)!

If the space in your cabinet is not well ventilated, or if the AVR is too close to the shelf above it, then one of the front or rear exhaust versions of these is best:
I would prefer the rear exhaust as the front exhaust is more likely to be audible, but if your only ventilation is out the front that is the one to get. Not that the front or rear Aircom units essentially place a slelf immediately above these fans, so if you have extra height clearance, you can put hockey pucks under the feet to allow very easy airflow into the bottom of the AVR!

If your cabinet has a door or you just want to supplement, one of these is useful to ventilate the cabinet (marginally as a stand alone, but in addition to one of the above you've got no heat issues):

Other comments on these:
1) Several of these have the option of a thermostatic control (designated by a T as in T8). This is what I have and if I was doing it over, I would not get the thermostat! Not only will you save money, but anytime the thermostat kicks the fan on (when the sound is quiet), I notice the fan starting up. I assume the fan pulls more power and is louder during start-up. Once it is running steady at low speed, it is quiet. Of course the thermostat is also more likely to be a failure point.
2) Where possible, use a two (or three) fan unit. That way were a fan to fail, you would not lose all ventilation and hopefully you would notice before the second one failed (although most modern electronics are pretty graceful with their thermal overload switch) and could replace the unit. Happily most of the failure include annoying noises that would get your attention (these are essentially PC fans which you may have heard when a bearing is going bad or dust is causing interference).
3) If you have an enclosed cabinet, put the Airplate up high (heat rises) as an exhaust fan to pull hot air out. If you ever lived in a house with an attic fan in use you will appreciate this easier, but you need to think about where you are drawing air from and how it will flow through the cabinet to the fan. You want to encourage it to flow through you AVR (and other electronics that generate heat). Often, this may mean pulling a shelf out and drilling holes (match their location to the vent holes in the bottom of your AVR) and you may also need to seal a gap at the back of the shelf (Home Depot has lots of foam strips, etc similar to how you would seal a window fan or AC).
If you do need to drill holes in the shelf, use a 3/4" hole saw (like the image below $10 at Lowes.com). The reason I am specifying a hole saw like this is you will end up with cleaner holes. With most drill bits, you will end up with a mess when the bit exits the back side of the shelf (especially with some of the laminate finishes being used). With the hole saw, drill from one side until the center bit sticks out the back side (do not push hard, let the tool cut, I would try it on a piece of scrap wood if you are a hole saw virgin - maybe apply three pounds of force behind the tool), then, simply stick the bit in the hole and finish cutting the hole from the back side. That way you never have the tear out from the saw actually exiting through the finished surface!


I would leave 1/2" between holes just to make sure you do not reduce the strength of the shelf. Also keep all holes inside the rectangle you would have if you drew lines inside the feet of your AVR. As long as you stay inside the feet, the shelf does not see much load anyway!

Awesome advise! I really like the multifan and should work in my application. Question is where do you plug in the USB? What's your thoughts of the Marantz SR7013 in a 23wx18dx10" high open cabinet using one of these fans? A4L said the B&W are already warm sounding and the Marantz is warm sounding and you don't want too much warmth. Would I be better with the X4500h? From what I've read it's basically the same unit except Marantz has HDAM. Have you or anyone else tried both brands and have an opinion on the differences in the sound? I guess I've had several Denon's in my lifetime and wanting to try something different but it's $400 in price difference.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
As for A4L indicating the Marantz is warm sounding I'd stop asking them questions....such a silly piece of advice. Marantz and Denon models in this range are far more alike than different....get the one with the feature set you want at the best price. You could conceivably use the usb ports on the avr unless you want to use them for a flash drive, believe in both units you can only do one thing at a time even with dual usb ports. Alternatively you could use a wall wart, I do with mine, but use a smart power strip to power them on/off in sync with avr....have used the usb port on my avr before but wanted to plug in a thumb drive....
 
GuitarPicker

GuitarPicker

Junior Audioholic
As for A4L indicating the Marantz is warm sounding I'd stop asking them questions....such a silly piece of advice. Marantz and Denon models in this range are far more alike than different....get the one with the feature set you want at the best price. You could conceivably use the usb ports on the avr unless you want to use them for a flash drive, believe in both units you can only do one thing at a time even with dual usb ports. Alternatively you could use a wall wart, I do with mine, but use a smart power strip to power them on/off in sync with avr....have used the usb port on my avr before but wanted to plug in a thumb drive....

Yea you could probably ask them the same question today and get a different answer. It's frustrating when you talk to their "technical" department and you feel like they are trying to "sell" you something rather than making an honest suggestion based on your application. I can see where plugging the usb in a wall socket could be an issue when trying to turn off. I could use the USB on my TV but I would have to unplug my LED back lighting which is not that big a deal. I know the question of "what's the best avr" has been asked a million times and I appreciate all of the suggestions and responses. What I gather when you get up in that price range of D&M you really can't make a bad choice. I remember talking to my boss when I was younger about taking a vacation and staying in a nicer Hotel but it cost $400 more for the 3 nights. He said "you only live once and in a couple years from now you will forget you ever spent the extra money". He was right. Sometimes I guess what makes us happy is splurging and getting what we want within our means. I remember several times in life buying something less expensive and beating myself up later for not getting exactly what I wanted.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Awesome advise! I really like the multifan and should work in my application. Question is where do you plug in the USB? What's your thoughts of the Marantz SR7013 in a 23wx18dx10" high open cabinet using one of these fans? A4L said the B&W are already warm sounding and the Marantz is warm sounding and you don't want too much warmth. Would I be better with the X4500h? From what I've read it's basically the same unit except Marantz has HDAM. Have you or anyone else tried both brands and have an opinion on the differences in the sound? I guess I've had several Denon's in my lifetime and wanting to try something different but it's $400 in price difference.
If by "open cabinet", you mean no back or front, then yes, I think you'd be fine with the simple multifan unit.
I use my Multifan unit with a Denon 4520 which has a USB port on the back. Many of the newer models no longer have that, and I don't think it looks very good to have it plugged into the front USB.
This one uses a standard AC plug:

If you want it to turn on-off automatically, I would use something like this which switches outlets on-off depending on the on-off status of the device plugged into the master outlet:

If convenient, use the TV as the master controller for on-off, but AVR will work fine as well!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Yea you could probably ask them the same question today and get a different answer. It's frustrating when you talk to their "technical" department and you feel like they are trying to "sell" you something rather than making an honest suggestion based on your application. I can see where plugging the usb in a wall socket could be an issue when trying to turn off. I could use the USB on my TV but I would have to unplug my LED back lighting which is not that big a deal. I know the question of "what's the best avr" has been asked a million times and I appreciate all of the suggestions and responses. What I gather when you get up in that price range of D&M you really can't make a bad choice. I remember talking to my boss when I was younger about taking a vacation and staying in a nicer Hotel but it cost $400 more for the 3 nights. He said "you only live once and in a couple years from now you will forget you ever spent the extra money". He was right. Sometimes I guess what makes us happy is splurging and getting what we want within our means. I remember several times in life buying something less expensive and beating myself up later for not getting exactly what I wanted.
They're largely a sales oriented outfit....and I usually would avoid asking retailers in general any technical questions as that tends to be a weak point. I wouldn't spend $400 more on a Marantz over it's Denon cousin, tho.
 

Latest posts


newsletter
  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top