Advice on 2.1 setup for music: budget ~1500$US

[sr2002]

Hello this is my first post.
So, I recently purchased a SVS SB-2000 sub and wanted to add a stereo setup with it.

My requirements:
Preferrably a DAC/AMP combo or an AVR with good (non-inflamed spec sheet values )
Book shelf speakers
Ability to stream PCM optical/coax (Absolute necessity. As I want a good DAC built in)
Optional support for USB streaming with DSD/FLAC

My budget:
For the speakers: Upto 799$US for the pair
For integrated receiver/AVR: upto 700$US

Options I am currently considering:
Rotel RA-12 + B&W 685 S2 Pair

Primary usage:
Will be used in a bedroom (small to medium size) with my desktop PC primarily
Will be watching movies, play games and listen to music.

I am leaning towards an integrated amp as I wanted a nice clean setup with least possible wires flying around and massive AVR units taking up space.
I would really appreciate you alls inputs on my current selection and any alternatives that might be better bang for the buck given my budget.
Also, will chosing an AVR with the future expandability to 5.1 or 7.1, be a better option of will a integrated amp like the Rotel be a more refined and higher quality setup.

 

[shadyJ]

Looks like your selected combination would work fine. You might look into a Marantz NR1606. It is not a very large AVR, it has a lot of connectivity, and it will allow you to expand your setup to surround sound later if you wish. If you like the sound of the B&W speakers, then that is what you should get. If it were me, I would be looking at Ascend Sierra 1s, a very neutral and accurate speaker. I might also be looking at a pair of KEF Q300s.

 

[sr2002]

Thanks for your inputs.
I havent yet auditioned the 685 S2s, I'll be going to the local store on tuesday. Do any of the big stores like Magnolia carry the Ascent Sierras? Often times there are speakers from smaller manufacturers that a superb but there is no way to audition them. One of the things I like about B&Ws is their looks, they look pleasing and classy (Aesthetics also matter, as I'm looking for simple clean setup rather than my old "audio-testing facility" style setup haha )

Also, as for the amplifier, I recently stumbled on the Cambridge audio SR20 and the CXA60. The CXA seems to be praised quite a bit. Any experience with Cambrdige vs Rotel?

 

[lovinthehd]

Ascend only sells internet direct but do have a trial period (but you pay return freight). LOL I'd have to drive several hours just to find a store with a listening room so I prefer internet personally, that way I can audition in the best possible environment for future listening....in my room and with my gear. SVS offers a trial with free return freight. I do recommend the Sierras, I have a LCR set of the Sierra-1s.

Do you want bass management or are going to try the "blending" thing? AVRs are going to generally have better bass management in your budget than the stereo integrated amps.

 

[sr2002]

With AVRs the only problem I see is that I will not be using probably 70% of its features. I probably wont stream 4k with it or ever get 7-9 speakers for Atmos or run separate zones etc.
So what repels me is that I will be paying for those features and only a part my money will actually be put to use in their DAC/Amplifier section. That is one of the reasons I feel better with stereo Dac/Amps where atleast I can feel good that all the 800$ish were spent on the DAC and AMP section and not other features that I would never use.
But again, please feel free to correct, cause after researching some dedicated DACs recently it seems some Chinese manufacturers are actually producing quite impressive equipment that put the boutique brands to shame a fraction of the price.
So if you have better sounding/quality options in the same price point from Yamaha/Marantz/Onkyo please feel free to suggest.

The Sierra's must be good, but quite honestly, I don't like their looks, I like the way the KEF Q100s or the 685 S2s look. I am also looking for an aesthetically pleasing and simplistic setup

 

[sr2002]

And to answer your question about the bass management. Both the RA-12 and the Cambridge have subwoofer outputs. I don't know if they have crossover settings built in to the amp. If not, I'm planning to use my own judgement to tune the Subwoofer's crossover frequency to blend with the bookshelves.

 

[killdozzer]

Guys, I swear this is not my 'other account'!!

This is uncanny! I have an 'audio twin' somewhere in the world. The DAC, the price, the brands, the aesthetic, the reasons behind it... I can't believe.

@sr2002 - I'm looking for the exact same thing and for the exact same reason/purpose and at the exact same price range.

By now I can probably help these guys out so that they don't have to write everything they told me again:
You'll actually get a Marantz AVR a lot cheaper then you would any DAC/amp especially if you're thinking on having bass management. This is what they told me here and it is true. I've been spending hours on comparing prices and specs; there is no solid DAC/amp with enough power in the price range of, for example, Marantz NR1606. They almost always cost more. And believe it or not, if you add the bass management to the mix, the cheapest is the NAD D7050 for 800$ which still has less than the Marantz (next one being Parasound integrated for 2500$)

So you don't have to worry about extra features. They can just lay around doing nothing, you'll still give less money.

Furthermore, you would probably end up spending less than 800$ on the said receiver, so you'll have more for the speakers where it counts.

There should be no serious difference in sound between Marantz and Rotel and some might even argue no difference at all. They all play well, they do their job, they have enough power for those bookshelves, so it's the same.

Marantz could sound better in the end, but because it lets you adjust lows and midds and highs. I've been looking into Rotel myself (and Cambridge Audio, I can't believe this...) if they have a crossover built in it is still a fixed one at what the setting is. So no adjusting.

Although B&W are very good, you give a considerable amount of money for the name.

I am new to this, but everything I said is exactly what people here were telling me for the past two months.

killdozzer

 

[lovinthehd]

Searching the RA-12 manual for crossover or low pass filter or high pass filter or subwoofer yielded no results, doesn't appear to have a sub specific pre-out either, just stereo full band pre-outs. The Cambridge SR20 does have a sub pre out and the specs indicate a 200Hz 2nd order filter. The CXA60 doesn't have a sub specific pre-out, just stereo full band.

AVRs are generaly less expensive due to their economies of scale (they outsell integrated amps by quite a bit), and the main players do pack a alot of performance in an avr....you don't have to use a feature you don't want to use either. Limited use electronics are....of limited use IMO. I'd much rather have bass management options. Parasound Halo comes to mind but think that's quite a bit more expensive. The Marantz avr slim line mentioned get pretty nice reviews from users from what I've seen.

 

[herbu]

Will be used in a bedroom (small to medium size) with my desktop PC... With AVRs the only problem I see is that I will not be using probably 70% of its features.

I suppose you have an operating system on your computer. Windows? IOS? How much of the OS capability do you suppose you use? 10%? 20%? So why did you pay for the whole OS when you only use a small % of its capabilities?

Oh... it does the things you want very well? It is an established OS w/ good support? Its price-for-performance is as good as it gets? You never know, as your knowledge, experience and desires increase, when you may want to use some additional features available in the OS?

OK. I understand.

 

[sr2002]

@killdozzer
Thats weird man, it does seem like we are twins in some other dimension ...
Thats very good advice that you got, I will definitely give the Marrantz receivers another look.
My local dealer also deals in Integra receivers, so I might have to check which models he carries.
What did you end up buying? And can you give me a short review on the AVR/Amp and the speakers that you bought and perhaps a comparison in case you also auditioned the 685s and the RA-12

@lovinthehd
Yea it seems the Rotel does not have bass management. But will tuning the sub to a small bedroom using the sub's crossover be too challenging? Because, I have done it before, my old HK receivers did not have bass management either. I understand that this would mean the speakers still get the whole 20-20khz spectrum rather than having a cut-off at the sub frequencies. I guess I'll have to do some critical thinking on that one. Any experience on Integra receivers? Or any other brands apart from the usual Yamaha/onkyo ?

I'm looking for something that has a good discrete analogue amplification stage, with proper channel isolation, RCA/Pre-out stages with discrete analogue circuits (I know this will be hard to come by at this price point) and a good DAC like the 8741 or AD1955 or Sabre ES9018/9016 etc. Based on my past experience with AVRs, they seem to skimp on the DACs and they often use Op-amps or Chip-amps for amplification and thats just not my cup of tea (although I agree some op-amps are worthy of praise). Plus having opened up some exotic amps in the past, they also usually come with better quality capacitor/resistors with 1% tolerances and isolated stages.
So to summarize, the reason I am considering the specialized 2 channel components is to possibly get a better built 2 channel circuit with good dacs and a good power supply and lesser overhead spent of other components.
But like some of you said that the AVRs have equally good sound I would appreciate a short list of good AVRs that I could look at. (+/- 100$ from my budget would work)
I have been out of touch with the AVR market for the past 2-3 years and I wish to return to my to my hobby again.

@herbu
Thanks for you input I appreciate it. Your analogy is very good, but having experience with AVRs/building my own amplifiers/subwoofers and being a EE/CS major its gonna take more than an analogy to convince me But I appreciate your inputs though

 

[lovinthehd]

Yea it seems the Rotel does not have bass management. But will tuning the sub to a small bedroom using the sub's crossover be too challenging? Because, I have done it before, my old HK receivers did not have bass management either. I understand that this would mean the speakers still get the whole 20-20khz spectrum rather than having a cut-off at the sub frequencies. I guess I'll have to do some critical thinking on that one. Any experience on Integra receivers? Or any other brands apart from the usual Yamaha/onkyo ?

I'm looking for something that has a good discrete analogue amplification stage, with proper channel isolation, RCA/Pre-out stages with discrete analogue circuits (I know this will be hard to come by at this price point) and a good DAC like the 8741 or AD1955 or Sabre ES9018/9016 etc. Based on my past experience with AVRs, they seem to skimp on the DACs and they often use Op-amps or Chip-amps for amplification and thats just not my cup of tea (although I agree some op-amps are worthy of praise). Plus having opened up some exotic amps in the past, they also usually come with better quality capacitor/resistors with 1% tolerances and isolated stages.
So to summarize, the reason I am considering the specialized 2 channel components is to possibly get a better built 2 channel circuit with good dacs and a good power supply and lesser overhead spent of other components.
But like some of you said that the AVRs have equally good sound I would appreciate a short list of good AVRs that I could look at. (+/- 100$ from my budget would work)
I have been out of touch with the AVR market for the past 2-3 years and I wish to return to my to my hobby again.

How can you tell what DAC chip is in what gear other than the spec sheet? You can actually hear the differences? You're sensitive to A-D-A conversions? I've not had an op amp get in the way of enjoyment myself. Must have better ears than mine (and these days that isn't inconceivable). I've got three different avrs in use now (Denon, Onkyo & Sony) and a fourth (Pioneer) died recently; my 2ch gear (separates, when I got into it integrated amps weren't considered "pure" enough ) sits unused for the most part due to its limitations (multi ch support, digital support, bass management being the major points).

The 2ch gear's supposed superiority to avr quality is lost on me, I don't see that they're much different and far less useful. They all sound fine to me in any case but then I'm almost 60, too, altho I've felt this way for quite a few years of avr ownership (and have had a 2ch separates setup in one room, multich avr in an adjacent room....sorry it wasn't night and day for me, modern avrs are pretty darn good IMO). Differences between Onkyo and Integra is a marketing thing AFAIK, supposedly better component tolerance spec in Integra but that seems to come more from the marketing side from what I've read so I tend to discount that. I did notice it seemed Integra units were just as prone to the dsp/hdmi board issues as Onkyo units.

Marantz is often praised as being more "music" friendly but I think this has more to do with their past ownership/reputation than current, the Denon and Marantz models are more similar than different these days IMO. I use my gear to reproduce audio, not particular types, I like to have the system work well with whatever I throw at it. In any case I buy avrs based on features more than trying to hear a "signature" type sound, feel they're more similar in that regard than different.

Is this a secondary system? I suppose blending a sub might work depending on speakers and your performance requirements. I use bookshelf speakers, last big floorstanders I had were just too damn big. I much prefer using the subs' lower frequency capabilities than the speakers' (and would even for those floor standers I had). Depends somewhat on what you listen to, I do like the lower end of the spectrum and at significant volume.

Which causes me to ask, why did you buy a sub rather than simply build one if you've got the experience? I can't see buying a commercial sub again (I have 5 various commercial subs, three DIYs currently, with more drivers awaiting boxes now). How about any necessary eq for your sub, what would you do? I've had good success with Audyssey but have added miniDSP for more detailed management than SubEQ/XT32 can provide.

 

[sr2002]

Well as for the differences between DACs, if you use headphones you can actually tell the subtle differences, on speakers is hard to tell especially at the kind of budget I'm buying at. But to give you an example the Saber ES9018 (depending on the conditioning circuit) sounds bright or can sound thin if not properly implemented, on the other hand Wolfson WM8741 is more on the warmer side. I have little experience with BurrBrown and Analog devices DACs so I can't comment on those. So the thing is, depending on the DAC if you pair a warm sounding dac with a warm sounding speakers, you get a warmer sound and while it will be brighter if you pair bright speakers with bright dacs. Some people you like tube amp style sound like the warm DAC + Warm speaker combo. As for me I like the sound to be neutral and flat so if the B&Ws are bright speakers it would be wrong for me to pair them with a Saber ES9018 DAC as it will be too bright for my taste. Also bare in mind I will be using headphones as well, so I will be able to tell some subtle differences. I dont claim myself to be an expert audiophile or a person with super human hearing abilities, but since I'm spending this kind of money I would rather try to get it right for the first time than having to switch gear.

As to why I chose to buy a subwoofer than build one, the subs I build were usually large and ugly looking and ported designs. I gave most of them away when I moved and I don't have the time currently due to work and stuff to get into all of that. Plus I always wanted to buy an SVS sub, especially the sealed one. Finally I have the budget to buy the whole system together so I'm trying my best to put that money good use.

This system will not be my primary system. Its something for my personal listening in the bedroom and hence it will not be connected to a TV to take full advantage of multiple AV sources and pass throughs for 4k. This system will be getting a 96kHz PCM feed from my Desktop PC and will hence be used for gaming, movies and music. The other thing is that since my PC is on 24 hours, the Amp/AVR will also probably stay on for long periods of time.

Initially I was planning to buy separates (Gustard X20 DAC + Emotiva AMP + Woo audio Headphone tube Amp) but that was getting way out of my budget. So I decided to see if I can find a close enought integrated amp.

And in all fairness, I completely agree with you that the differences are very small, but it's also the mental satisfaction of owning something unique and specialized.
And I am hearing good things about Marantz and Yamaha from quite a few people even out side of this forum. So I'm definitely keeping the AVR option open.

Can you suggest any specific Marantz models that I could look at?
Also, apart from the Ascend Sierras, any other decent bookshelf speakers I should consider when paired with the SVS sub?

 

[lovinthehd]

The slimline Marantz avrs may be a fit for you. Not a headphone guy unless I have to...and I don't have to for the most part, especially not at home unless its to monitor something like digitizing vinyl. The whole bright/warm manipulation with electronics is beyond me, rather use dsp.

Have you checked out SVS' speakers? Personally right now I wouldn't look beyond the Sierra-S2 if I were to buy a speaker (but am going diy with my speakers from now on as well as subs). I checked out some 600 series B&Ws a while back, don't remember the specific model, but didn't like them (but that could be partly the setup at the store I listened to them in). The KEF LS-50s look interesting....

ps Philharmonic.com might be another consideration....

 

[KenM10759]

I have an SVS SB2000 subwoofer. It's paired with KEF...the R series (as seen in my sig.) The sound is uncanny, with the smoothest transition imaginable between the speakers and the sub. I attribute much of that to the settings on my NAD receiver, though the speakers do play an important role. If you like the looks of the KEF Q100, their R100 is it's sister, the high fashion model one. And sounds better too.

Here you go, a beautiful pairing with future expansion capacity:

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/kefr100rw/kef-r100-r-series-5.25-bookshelf-speakers-rosewood-pair/1.html
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/marnr1606/marantz-nr1606-7.2-atmos-slim-a/v-receiver-wi-fi/bluetooth/airplay/1.html

And right about where budget lies.

 

[killdozzer]

@killdozzer
Thats weird man, it does seem like we are twins in some other dimension ...
Thats very good advice that you got, I will definitely give the Marrantz receivers another look.
My local dealer also deals in Integra receivers, so I might have to check which models he carries.
What did you end up buying? And can you give me a short review on the AVR/Amp and the speakers that you bought and perhaps a comparison in case you also auditioned the 685s and the RA-12

Oh, I'm still out there! The whole venture started not two months ago and I have some obstacles on my way. Mainly: I would like to audition KEF LS50's but there are none at the moment in my hometown (not one single shop has them). One shop said they've ordered, but months are passing and nothing is happening. I think I'll have to modify my strategy.

People here explained the advantages of bass management in 2.1 systems (in others as well, naturally) and I'm all for it, I just need to find something I can really live with. You see, when it comes to aesthetics you were mentioning, I find almost all receivers to be quite displeasing. I wouldn't let this stop me in the long run, but for now I am trying to find a way around it. I was thinking; I have to buy a sub anyway, so I might find one a bit more expensive with good bass management and let it do the job for the regular 2.1 stereo amp/DAC.

I still have a lot of time to decide since I would like to buy speakers first and that is taking far too much time. That was also an advice I got here; you buy speakers that sound good to you and then match the amp accordingly.

I am using this time (the time it takes for me to finally audition the friggin' LS 50's) to really deep-probe the entire EU market and find an amp that performs well and looks decent.

I did hear the B&W, though. I use to really love these. My father had (perhaps he still does) these:

a very old model of 802's and they were heavenly. As far as the cheaper models go, I had old 685's at my place and didn't like something about their bass. I don't know what or how to describe this other than; the bass sounded like 'd' and not 'b' what I wanted. (these are not notes but the sound human mouth makes when you pronounce 'd' instead of 'b'.

Since we're after much the same thing, here are links to my threads, perhaps you might find them useful. I sure did.
it started here:
A/V grades

and ended in one thread concerning speakers and the other concerning amp which is all I'm really after:
Speakers Q&A

Amp Crash Course

I wish you luck audio twin!

 

[Ponzio]

I was in the same boat about 2 years ago about getting some high quality sound for my bedroom and thru some trial & error, I have found the perfect marriage of audio SQ on a limited budget in a 20'x20' room. Ur first consideration should be the speakers and then the amp/receiver (AVR) since u already have a SVS SB-2000 sub. I would recommend u go demo a pair of KEF LS50's and search ur local newspapers/Craig's List for a used Yamaha/Denon/Marantz AVR with a bare minimum of 100 WPC ... the KEF's are power hungry little beasts; the more the merrier. at one time or another I've mated one of my Yamaha AVR's (2600, 2700, 3000 & now the 2040) with a set of Epos Epic 2's, the AA Sierra-1's and finally the LS50's on a pair of heavy duty 36" DR Pro speaker stands ($105), along with my SVS SB-2000 sub. the sound is superb. Enjoy the hunt and go demo as many speakers as possible, since ur tonal preferences maybe different than mine.

 

[sr2002]

@lovinthehd
I haven't checked the SVS speakers I can't find anyone locally who has them. And quite honestly, I'm not too concerned about speakers in general as they are passive components and at this price bracket, usually all of them are very well made and should sound good (except some subtle differences). But, of course auditioning is the best way to judge and they only ones I can audition right now would be the B&W 685 S2 and possibly some paradigm bookshelves that the dealer carries.

@KenM10759
Thanks for you input I'm looking at the Marrantz receivers, the one you have linked looks pretty good for the size. Do you currently own this receiver? Have you had any issues with it? Also the Kefs look superb, but I cant find any locally to audition. Have you compared them to the 685 S2?

@killdozzer
Thanks a lot for the followup. I have been doing quite a bit of reading myself through threads. Although the RA-12 doesn't have many detailed reviews, the ones that I did find don't seem to complain about it at all. With receiver (mostly because they are so popular) I have seen quite a few positive and negative reviews some complaining about longterm reliability some about SQ and some about customer service. With Rotel I am yet to find a review complaining about their customer server or warranty replacement. That is one of the reasons I'm a little confused, as the marrantz receivers definitely fit the bill and also my budget.

@Ponzio
I'm seeing the LS50 being mentioned quite a lot and seems like its a good speaker. However I checked its price on amazon its more than twice the price of the 685 S2s, so I don't think my budget will be able to accomodate them.

Here are the amps/receivers I narrowed down based on you all's inputs and some reading I did. Please provide some feedback.

Receiver/Stereo Amp:
Onkyo A-9050 (Cheapest option for now seems to have excellent reviews, but is not an AVR)
Cambridge Audio CXA60 (Have pretty good reviews and has all the features, except AVR stuff)
Rotel RA-12 (I think the oldest of the bunch, but not many reviews available online)
Marantz NR1606 (Small footprint, but reviews on amazon claiming quality control issues)
Marantz SR5010 (Good reviews, but looks massive lol )
Yamaha A-S501 (Good reviews, but not an AVR)

Speakers:
B&W 685 S2 (top of my least for aesthetics. But haven't auditioned yet)
Kef Q300 (No way to audition, specs look promising)
SVS Prime Bookshelf (Havent heard them myself but have heard people say they are harsh)

 

[KenM10759]

I don't own the Marantz 1606 but it seems to have a good reputation here, along with it's brethren 1505 and similar slim ones from Marantz.

As for the B&W 685S2 vs KEF Q300, I have heard them both at a dealer playing the same cuts. It all comes down to what YOU like. The 685S2 has more extended treble at the very top. It's not bright like an older Klipsch, but nonetheless very detailed. With the KEF, the tweeter is excellent for all but the very very top. It doesn't break up, just kind of tails off on it's volume above 10khz. Where the Q300 seems better is in the mid-bass to upper midrange. Very responsive, good punch and clear as could be. Both seem fairly close in the lower ranges but I'd have to give a slight edge to the Q300.

My son has a pair of Q300 as his L-R mains in a 7.1 surround system and they really surprise me at how similar they sound to me much more expensive KEF R series speakers. I don't know how much of a factor it is for you, but I think it's nice that you can get the Q300 in European Walnut, Rosewood, black ash or (my favorite) a semi-gloss white.

 

[lovinthehd]

I haven't checked the SVS speakers I can't find anyone locally who has them. And quite honestly, I'm not too concerned about speakers in general as they are passive components and at this price bracket, usually all of them are very well made and should sound good (except some subtle differences). But, of course auditioning is the best way to judge and they only ones I can audition right now would be the B&W 685 S2 and possibly some paradigm bookshelves that the dealer carries.

SVS subs I think are available thru particular BestBuy operations (Magnolia centers?), but mostly just internet direct (with free shipping both ways if you return them, so a no-risk audition where it counts--in your room with your gear). Don't know if the speakers are in any dealers, can't remember reading that.

Dealers aren't an option for me where I live now without a very long drive, so I generally look to the internet offerings delivered to my door. YMMV.

 

[sr2002]

@lovinthehd

Oh I'm totally sold on the SVS Subs ... even without listening to them ... ... After reading review after review of all the SVS subs, I didnt need an audition to buy one.
I have currently ordered the SB-2000 and should get it in a day or two (Hopefully it doesnt dissapoint me).
I'll post the first impressions here once I get it.

But with speakers, its a different thing cause I've had speakers in the past that had very sharp tweeter that would give me a fatigue after extended listening. So thats why I dont want to gamble on speakers I can't actually listen to first.