Adjusting subwoofer levels after Audyssey.

Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
I could build my own curve like Bill does too, but I'm happy using DEQ to do it. Either method involves some eq'ing.
 
astartesultra

astartesultra

Enthusiast
Well, thanks guys for your help, I'll give the sub crawl a try, redo Audyssey and stick to -10 RLO.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Well, thanks guys for your help, I'll give the sub crawl a try, redo Audyssey and stick to -10 RLO.
YVW.

RLO 10 just happens to work for me. Don't be afraid to experiment a little bit. RLO 0 will have the strongest effect while RLO 15 will be the mildest. After you do some crawling and run Audyssey again put some music on that you're really familiar with and listen closely to decide for yourself what sounds best.
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
Mind if I jump in? I'm also trying to tune my sub but not quite happy yet. The cone in the sub was barely moving so I ran some experiments. Turned the crossover up to 120Hz on the AVR and sub, made sure all speakers were set to small, tried both LFE and LFE+Main (which shouldn't make a difference if all speakers are set to small) and checked that the sub was at 0dB after Audessey had been run (although I did not re-run Audessey). Checked that the line level cable was on LFE for AVR and sub and turned up the level on the sub. I then looked for music with some deep bass. A lot of rock albums are really lacking in any deep bass content, but I have some electro-pop and alt-rock that should get the sub moving.

One particular track is Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones (jazz). The bass is deep from the start, and the bass run in the middle of the song extends waaayyy down (string bass that sounds amazing). It also contains some nice banjo and piano and is a great track for testing speakers. (There is a HQ version on Youtube and the whole album is on there as well.). I could finally feel some movement in the sub so at least I knew it was working (had my doubts earlier, it was doing so little). Mains were lacking though, so I turned the crossover on the AVR back down to 80Hz and got the mains sounding better.

The sub doesn't seem to do a whole lot for music though. I have the AVR set to go Direct 2.1 with 2-ch music so no EQ and no surrounds (dynamic EQ off for now). People have mentioned using a phone app for testing. Would something like Spectroid for Android help and does the mic on a cell phone even pick up bass at such low frequencies? My ears get tired after a lot of deep bass so I'm hoping I can do some measurements to support my feeling that something is lacking. Any pointers or suggestions appreciated. (System specs in my sig)
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Mind if I jump in? I'm also trying to tune my sub but not quite happy yet. The cone in the sub was barely moving so I ran some experiments. Turned the crossover up to 120Hz on the AVR and sub, made sure all speakers were set to small, tried both LFE and LFE+Main (which shouldn't make a difference if all speakers are set to small) and checked that the sub was at 0dB after Audessey had been run (although I did not re-run Audessey). Checked that the line level cable was on LFE for AVR and sub and turned up the level on the sub. I then looked for music with some deep bass. A lot of rock albums are really lacking in any deep bass content, but I have some electro-pop and alt-rock that should get the sub moving.

One particular track is Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones (jazz). The bass is deep from the start, and the bass run in the middle of the song extends waaayyy down (string bass that sounds amazing). It also contains some nice banjo and piano and is a great track for testing speakers. (There is a HQ version on Youtube and the whole album is on there as well.). I could finally feel some movement in the sub so at least I knew it was working (had my doubts earlier, it was doing so little). Mains were lacking though, so I turned the crossover on the AVR back down to 80Hz and got the mains sounding better.

The sub doesn't seem to do a whole lot for music though. I have the AVR set to go Direct 2.1 with 2-ch music so no EQ and no surrounds (dynamic EQ off for now). People have mentioned using a phone app for testing. Would something like Spectroid for Android help and does the mic on a cell phone even pick up bass at such low frequencies? My ears get tired after a lot of deep bass so I'm hoping I can do some measurements to support my feeling that something is lacking. Any pointers or suggestions appreciated. (System specs in my sig)
Get a umik and rew is the best thing you can do right now for starters. As far as your bass response goes there's no way to tell what you're hearing unless we can see some sort of measurements. How much the cone is moving is really kinda useless info, and the music you're using to test may or may not have deep bass. My son is always coming over with a new song with "deep bass" only to discover it's really not all that deep.

If you could link me to one of your deep bass songs I'm home and will give a listen. I can put it through a spectrum analyzer too, to see just how deep it goes.

Back to cone movement, I find it a little odd that would even be considered a metric. Depending on whether it's ported, sealed or how big it is, the way it was designed... the cone may or may not move a lot. The drivers in my sealed 12s were almost jumping out of the box, but my ported 15s barely move until I crank it up to ridiculous levels.

Also, and I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure LFE+Main does double down on your bass, even with a crossover.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Eppie you're voicing some dissatisfaction with your bass and I just looked up the subwoofer you have in your sig and it's leaving a little to be desired based on specs. It's not really even a true subwoofer. Also, since you are going with pure direct and using no eq, there isn't a whole lot you can do aside from positional eq, trying different locations for the sub to see if anything improves. How did you pick the current location for your sub? Did you do a sub crawl?
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
One particular track is Flight of the Cosmic Hippo by Bela Fleck and the Flecktones (jazz). The bass is deep from the start, and the bass run in the middle of the song extends waaayyy down (string bass that sounds amazing).
It's smooth and fairly deep, but not very strong. Here check it out, I ran it through an analyzer, along with one of my songs that I know digs really deep. What we're looking for is the color red. The more red it is, the stronger the bass.

This is Flight of the Cosmic Hippo.

Eppie_copy_1162x601.png


There's some energy in the lower octaves and it does dip down to the mid 20s, but not with much authority. The chart below shows what deep, strong bass would look like.

Eppie2_copy_1162x601.png
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
So, Cosmic Hippo does not have a lot of bass energy to start, and your sub's f3 is 29 hz. So a good portion of what bass is there dips below your sub's capabilities. So between your sub and the song you're using to test it's not surprising you feel there's something lacking.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
@Eppie I'd think about getting a better sub before I would worry about a measurement mic for your current sub. I do love some good Victor Wooten bass, tho. Also visible cone movement isn't particularly going to tell you a lot.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
@Eppie I'd think about getting a better sub before I would worry about a measurement mic for your current sub. I do love some good Victor Wooten bass, tho. Also visible cone movement isn't particularly going to tell you a lot.
Yes, I meant to add that in my follow up post after I looked up his sub's specs. That should be prioritized over a mic. The sub is the bottleneck right now.
 
astartesultra

astartesultra

Enthusiast
It's smooth and fairly deep, but not very strong. Here check it out, I ran it through an analyzer, along with one of my songs that I know digs really deep. What we're looking for is the color red. The more red it is, the stronger the bass.

This is Flight of the Cosmic Hippo.

View attachment 45368

There's some energy in the lower octaves and it does dip down to the mid 20s, but not with much authority. The chart below shows what deep, strong bass would look like.

View attachment 45369
Off topic I know but, what song is that second chart, actually wanna try it now lol. Always looking to try some deep bass songs and how my sub can handle it. Great test stuff too.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Warlord
Off topic I know but, what song is that second chart, actually wanna try it now lol. Always looking to try some deep bass songs and how my sub can handle it. Great test stuff too.
I guess did my time by Korn!!!
Do I win, do I win?!?!?!?!?!
Pogey! Do I win????
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Off topic I know but, what song is that second chart, actually wanna try it now lol. Always looking to try some deep bass songs and how my sub can handle it. Great test stuff too.
I guess did my time by Korn!!!
Do I win, do I win?!?!?!?!?!
Pogey! Do I win????
Ohh.... you're kinda close? Not really tho, lol. A very good guess, knowing me tho! It's "Punchline" by Chevelle. He's gotta be using an electronic kick pad for that song.


Also @astartesultra, you should check out the subwoofer candy thread too. There are some good ones in there!

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/subwoofer-candy.97152/page-35
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
I want to thank everyone for the feedback, it's appreciated. The sub is ported and the cone movement was much more prevalent with my testing. Since subs basically pressurize a room I can't imagine not seeing some movement at high volumes with a 10" driver. Yeah, the sub is not in the same class as my mains but sufficed for movie viewing. Under critical listening the shortcomings are becoming apparent though. My mains are rated down to 54Hz +/- 2dB so was hoping even a cheaper sub would improve things.

I think what I miss more might actually be mid bass. I played bass guitar through a 15" EV in a Kroth reflex cabinet. While my bookshelf speakers can play down to 54Hz, an 8" driver just doesn't reproduce those tones in the 100s and 200s as a 15" driver. While a better sub is likely a good addition to what I have, I think I need to try some more different songs and also look at room treatments. The highs start to sound harsh at high volumes so I'd also like to try and control the reflections from the ceiling and side wall. After buying the turntable though I'll likely have to wait a while to convince my wife to drop a $1000 on a better sub. ;) Last time I checked, Hsu Research had some good subs at decent prices.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
I want to thank everyone for the feedback, it's appreciated. The sub is ported and the cone movement was much more prevalent with my testing. Since subs basically pressurize a room I can't imagine not seeing some movement at high volumes with a 10" driver. Yeah, the sub is not in the same class as my mains but sufficed for movie viewing. Under critical listening the shortcomings are becoming apparent though. My mains are rated down to 54Hz +/- 2dB so was hoping even a cheaper sub would improve things.

I think what I miss more might actually be mid bass. I played bass guitar through a 15" EV in a Kroth reflex cabinet. While my bookshelf speakers can play down to 54Hz, an 8" driver just doesn't reproduce those tones in the 100s and 200s as a 15" driver. While 77a better sub is likely a good addition to what I have, I think I need to try some more different songs and also look at room treatments. The highs start to sound harsh at high volumes so I'd also like to try and control the reflections from the ceiling and side wall. After buying the turntable though I'll likely have to wait a while to convince my wife to drop a $1000 on a better sub. ;) Last time I checked, Hsu Research had some good subs at decent prices.
If I recall, your don't have a huge space. In fact it might be small enough for a REL Speedwoofer. It's only $399 and does really well for its size. I think it'd be a nice little step up. The new PB1000 Pro looks really good too, and it's not too much bigger than what you have. It's a true sub too and legit digs down to 20 hz. Both of those would be great for music.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If I recall, your don't have a huge space. In fact it might be small enough for a REL Speedwoofer. It's only $399 and does really well for its size. I think it'd be a nice little step up. The new PB1000 Pro looks really good too, and it's not too much bigger than what you have. It's a true sub too and legit digs down to 20 hz. Both of those would be great for music.
RSL! Not REL! :)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I want to thank everyone for the feedback, it's appreciated. The sub is ported and the cone movement was much more prevalent with my testing. Since subs basically pressurize a room I can't imagine not seeing some movement at high volumes with a 10" driver. Yeah, the sub is not in the same class as my mains but sufficed for movie viewing. Under critical listening the shortcomings are becoming apparent though. My mains are rated down to 54Hz +/- 2dB so was hoping even a cheaper sub would improve things.

I think what I miss more might actually be mid bass. I played bass guitar through a 15" EV in a Kroth reflex cabinet. While my bookshelf speakers can play down to 54Hz, an 8" driver just doesn't reproduce those tones in the 100s and 200s as a 15" driver. While a better sub is likely a good addition to what I have, I think I need to try some more different songs and also look at room treatments. The highs start to sound harsh at high volumes so I'd also like to try and control the reflections from the ceiling and side wall. After buying the turntable though I'll likely have to wait a while to convince my wife to drop a $1000 on a better sub. ;) Last time I checked, Hsu Research had some good subs at decent prices.
I'd have opted for the sub instead of the tt :) Cone movement in a ported sub changes near port tuning frequency, too....it would nearly be motionless at the tuning frequency. It's not just the diameter, the Klipsch subs just aren't very good in general. Sealed subs can have better mid bass capabilities, too (ported subs are more advantageous in lower bass generally). Be sure you've maximized positioning of the sub, too (even with just a sub crawl).
 
Eppie

Eppie

Full Audioholic
Yes, not a huge space. The mains have decent efficiency and I'm not rattling the windows so the RSL would probably do nicely. The SVS SB-1000 is near that price range too.

And the turntable replaced one that was defective. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. ;)
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Yes, not a huge space. The mains have decent efficiency and I'm not rattling the windows so the RSL would probably do nicely. The SVS SB-1000 is near that price range too.

And the turntable replaced one that was defective. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. ;)
If my tt dies it dies (altho not likely, am sure it will outlive me).....I just wouldn't replace it :) I'd much rather have better subwoofage if I had your sub.
 

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