Adding sub to car. Just used an exposed seat bracket bolt for ground?

[TLS Guy]

It's a 2011 Sorento. I have 8AWG. This is not a high power setup by any means. Just a refresh with a bit more oomph. I'm $700 all in for head unit, 7 speakers, amp, wiring and inline fuse.

That has a solid state digital regulator integral with the alternator. That is bad news as that is just the technology that put all the aftermarket car audio guys out of business and why there are hardly any left.

Being 12 volt you are going to need much thicker wiring to your audio system than you think due to the I2R losses in cars. The wire needs 10 times the current rating than a 120 volt system would require. Too many people have set their vehicles in fire not taking on board that the heating goes up by the square of the increased current.

 

[jinjuku]

That has a solid state digital regulator integral with the alternator. That is bad news as that is just the technology that put all the aftermarket car audio guys out of business and why there are hardly any left.

Being 12 volt you are going to need much thicker wiring to your audio system than you think due to the I2R losses in cars. The wire needs 10 times the current rating than a 120 volt system would require. Too many people have set their vehicles in fire not taking on board that the heating goes up by the square of the increased current.

Just going to have to take my chances.

 

[TLS Guy]

Just going to have to take my chances.

I wish you good luck, but if you get a loud buzz you will be out of luck!

 

[jinjuku]

I wish you good luck, but if you get a loud buzz you will be out of luck!

As always I will test stage before I commit to an install. I have jumper cables

 

[jinjuku]

Head unit, speakers, amp, all in and integrated with some EQ. Zero alternator whine.

There is a 2nd row seat bar that I sanded off paint and used a strap for the ground wire and continuity was .000 ohm on the meter.

Unfortunately the Metra wire harness adapter was all those stupid crimp connectors and it was a shite job at that. I pulled it all apart, soldered and sleeved with heat shrink.

Also the first sub amp was DOA, Went into protection mode straight away. I did an advance replacement with the same and it worked right off the bat.

It's so much better than the joke factory, fisher price, junk.

$700 and some pocket change all in.

 

[mtrycrafts]

As always I will test stage before I commit to an install. I have jumper cables

Are you fishing that through the firewall?

 

[jinjuku]

Are you fishing that through the firewall?

I do wish that manufacturers would put in an aux pass through in the firewall but I can understand why they don't.

 

[highfigh]

I'll measure resistance from the seat bolt. If it plays it stays.

And I have no doubt the $80 Boss sub amp is not going to hit 550 watts. Just has to be better than what is in there.

It may work, but it might not work as well as if you establish a great ground- if the ground is less than it needs to be, voltage drop will occur and when that happens, it finds its own way back to the battery and that can be through other circuits. It's also the main cause of the whine, usually called 'alternator noise'. This also causes the amplifier to run hotter than it should, leading to premature failure.

I fixed many car audio sytems that used ground locations which weren't great- if the bracket is painted, it will add resistance and as TLS mentioned, current is high when voltage is low. If it drops because of factors that could be prevented, output usually drops (some amps can operate at a wider voltage range due to regulation, but the headroom isn't great.

What is the current rating for the fuse on the power wire at the battery? It doesn't need to match the rating of the amplifier, it's supposed to be there in order to save the car and occupants, as i posted before.

 

[highfigh]

I do wish that manufacturers would put in an aux pass through in the firewall but I can understand why they don't.

Look for a large grommet where the main harness passes through the firewall- they may have had other holes with their own plugs, too.

You can also drill your own hole, clear of harnesses, etc- just make sure to use a drill bit for the diameter of the plug or grommet, not a step drill. I worked with someone who used a step drill for the power wire in a van and as the bit created ever-larger holes, it went through the battery case and dripped electrolyte on the floor of the installation shop.

I usually nipped a small hole in the rubber grommet or plug, then fed a fish tape through, so the wire could be taped on before pulling it into the engine or passenger compartment.

 

[highfigh]

Head unit, speakers, amp, all in and integrated with some EQ. Zero alternator whine.

There is a 2nd row seat bar that I sanded off paint and used a strap for the ground wire and continuity was .000 ohm on the meter.

Unfortunately the Metra wire harness adapter was all those stupid crimp connectors and it was a shite job at that. I pulled it all apart, soldered and sleeved with heat shrink.

Also the first sub amp was DOA, Went into protection mode straight away. I did an advance replacement with the same and it worked right off the bat.

It's so much better than the joke factory, fisher price, junk.

$700 and some pocket change all in.

Cool- didnt see this until after I posted.

The harness was connected before you started?

Crimp connectors work fine, as long as they're tight. The last place where I ran a shop offered lifetime warranty on installations and we used caps, butt splices, ring terminals, etc- crimped properly, the wire strands will break before the terminal fails, as I showed the 17 year old (he thought he knew everything) working for me, who was going to use little wire nuts. I told him to throw them in the trash and he wanted to argue. We pulled each connection and the wire nut spun off and flew away, the crimp cap didn't fail, the strands did and each of us was pulling with far more force than they would ever experience, normally.

 

[highfigh]

I wish you good luck, but if you get a loud buzz you will be out of luck!

There are ways to deal with that.

 

[highfigh]

That has a solid state digital regulator integral with the alternator. That is bad news as that is just the technology that put all the aftermarket car audio guys out of business and why there are hardly any left.

Being 12 volt you are going to need much thicker wiring to your audio system than you think due to the I2R losses in cars. The wire needs 10 times the current rating than a 120 volt system would require. Too many people have set their vehicles in fire not taking on board that the heating goes up by the square of the increased current.

The shops aren't ALL gone, but many closed. The second place where I worked in car audio closed their 12V department and sold it to one of the salesmen and the last one closed their 12V departments in about 2006, not long before they closed. I went to a local shop yesterday and the owner said they're swamped, so I asked what they work on- old, new, medium-age, whatever. No real interest in working on boats, but that often requires going on-site and he also said he can't find installers with ANY level of training. Used to be that late-teens and early- 20s guys would come in fairly often, but it's hard to find anyone with ANY technical kowledge and it's not seen as a career path, even though they would have access to many industries if they worked with 12V systems for awhile. RV, commercial display vehicles, installed systems and others all need people for installation and the ones who do best have 12VDC experience. WRT new head units with steering wheel controls and touchscreens, adapters to allow the steering wheel buttons to control an aftermarket head unit have been available for more than 25 years and a newer system called Maestro allows communication between devices.

Wire gauge charts are available online and they're accurate WRT safety. Some of the local shops didn't bother with these details, they just blindly went in and caused all kinds of problems. I have seen many cars on flatbed trailers in dealer parking lots with the whole back or front end burned- "Fuses? We don't need no stinkin' fuses!".

 

[jinjuku]

I fixed many car audio sytems that used ground locations which weren't great- if the bracket is painted, it will add resistance and as TLS mentioned, current is high when voltage is low. If it drops because of factors that could be prevented, output usually drops (some amps can operate at a wider voltage range due to regulation, but the headroom isn't great.

I sanded and strapped the ground wire. Mutli-meter showed voltage and impedance to be nominal. And the sub amp works. The ground strap s 1/2 foot long.

Wasn't impressed with the wiring adapter. It's a crap way to do it IMO.

 

[jinjuku]

Look for a large grommet where the main harness passes through the firewall- they may have had other holes with their own plugs, too.

Managed to get it through the hood release grommet.

 

[jinjuku]

also said he can't find installers with ANY level of training.

I blame shop owners for this current problem. I get the feeling that most companies hiring expect you come out of the birth canal knowing what you need to know.

Training up is now seen as both expense and a way to launch an employee to greener pastures.

 

[TLS Guy]

The shops aren't ALL gone, but many closed. The second place where I worked in car audio closed their 12V department and sold it to one of the salesmen and the last one closed their 12V departments in about 2006, not long before they closed. I went to a local shop yesterday and the owner said they're swamped, so I asked what they work on- old, new, medium-age, whatever. No real interest in working on boats, but that often requires going on-site and he also said he can't find installers with ANY level of training. Used to be that late-teens and early- 20s guys would come in fairly often, but it's hard to find anyone with ANY technical kowledge and it's not seen as a career path, even though they would have access to many industries if they worked with 12V systems for awhile. RV, commercial display vehicles, installed systems and others all need people for installation and the ones who do best have 12VDC experience. WRT new head units with steering wheel controls and touchscreens, adapters to allow the steering wheel buttons to control an aftermarket head unit have been available for more than 25 years and a newer system called Maestro allows communication between devices.

Wire gauge charts are available online and they're accurate WRT safety. Some of the local shops didn't bother with these details, they just blindly went in and caused all kinds of problems. I have seen many cars on flatbed trailers in dealer parking lots with the whole back or front end burned- "Fuses? We don't need no stinkin' fuses!".

The bigger issue is that cars have much better entertainment systems than they used to have, and integrate with mobile phones. For most the best audio systems most people own is in their cars.

 

[jinjuku]

The bigger issue is that cars have much better entertainment systems than they used to have, and integrate with mobile phones. For most the best audio systems most people own is in their cars.

It's not even that entirely. The issue is the still shite systems manufacturers install and their proprietary nature.

I'm sure outfits like Sonic Electronix and Crutchfield won't be in the car audio business in 20 years.

 

[jinjuku]

The harness was connected before you started?

It was a pre-configured harness and the yellow line barrel crimp failed. I just redid them all

 

[highfigh]

It was a pre-configured harness and the yellow line barrel crimp failed. I just redid them all

Many installers and end users don't know that there's a right way and a wrong way to crimp terminals- they start as a flat strip and are pressed into their final shape with a seam at the top- the male part of the crimper is supposed to press up from the bottom and the female part is supposed to act as a cup, to allow this. The crimpers without a definite male and female are made for specific types of terminals and I have one made by Klein, but it also has the male/female die, too.

I have used the Gardner-Bender type for decades with great results and eventually switched to the stainless version because I would need to replace the steel ones every year because they wore out. Image is below. I also had a Panduit ratcheting crimper, replaced by Greenlee when it cracked- they have various dies for different types of terminals.

I have replaced and repaired many crimped terminations and some people think that using side-cutters is a good option- it's not.


\

 

[highfigh]

I blame shop owners for this current problem. I get the feeling that most companies hiring expect you come out of the birth canal knowing what you need to know.

Training up is now seen as both expense and a way to launch an employee to greener pastures.

To be fair, automakers started multiplexing in the md-late-'90s and one example was Honda, who included wires for the alarm in the head unit, which meant that if the head unit was replaced and the car owner wanted to use the OEM alarm system, the OEM head unit had to be left in the car and connected. Fortunately, there was enough space in the console, under the little plastic pocket and head unit. Chrysler used some of the stereo system wires for the HVAC controls and then, they started adding radio control buttons to the steering wheel and it took some time before an adapter became available to allow the buttons to operate the same as if the OEM radio was still in the car. This has only become more 'technically interesting' as the years have passed.

It has been rare that anyone who has managed or owned a car audio/security shop had the luxury of well trained installers coming in for a job. Most had learned many bad habits and needed to replace those before they were assigned to anything more than basic work. MECP is an organization that started around the beginning of the '90s, specifically to raise the average level of training and knowledge for 12V installers- I tried to get the owners of the second place where I worked/ran the shop to go for this and they didn't see the value, the last place insisted on it in an installer's first year. They also had a 200 question test that needed to be passed at 70% (IIRC), or the applicant was declined.

However, many technology advances have come along in the last 35 years and with high schools teaching less tech classes for many years, it was hard for the kids to learn unless they had some opportunity at a shop as a helper who transitioned or maybe, they had a parent or other family member/friend who could teach them.

Training takes time- using the best installer is great, but it prevents them doing their own job and the owner doesn't have the time, inclination and often, they couldn't teach this because they don't know ANYTHING about it, especially the technical stuff. There's no guarantee that someone will be a good teacher, either.

One of the real difficulties for installers- troubleshooting. Can't find the cause of a problem if their lives depended on it because they were never taught 12V theory. That wastes time, causes damage to wiring and done wrong, can cause vehicles to burn.