D
dlaloum
Senior Audioholic
The issue is the physio bills after lugging it in and hefting it up!
The issue is the physio bills after lugging it in and hefting it up!
I got my Crowns used from a pro-audio marketplace... they were abused for a couple of years, then I bought them... 2x XLS2500 for US$250 each - they have been running flawlessly in my system for about 15 years now.I took a look at those QSC amps, Gobs of power! Just a note, was just poking fun at Class D Amp power supply. They've come a long way Class D amps. Your absolutely correct, can't kill them Class D amps. A friend of mine uses Crown amps with his professional D J setup. They sit in his U haul like trailer they get kicked around, abused, handled rough. I've witnessed first hand how much abuse they take. Things is he has 4 of them all over 7 years old.
You know, I've known of those QSC amps and of course the Crown amps also. Plus knowing many AH members use them in their Home HT setup's with great results. Yeah can't knock Long term reliability not to mention price per watt.I got my Crowns used from a pro-audio marketplace... they were abused for a couple of years, then I bought them... 2x XLS2500 for US$250 each - they have been running flawlessly in my system for about 15 years now.
Good quality pro-audio gear can be a recipe for long term peace of mind!
XLR connectors are used for the DCA 1222s and terminal blocks for the 4 channel DCA 1824. For speaker cable, I simply use Monoprice 12 AWG wire.You have some Serious wattage there! How'd you Integrated those into your system? I mean 1/4 jacks, what did you use or ran for speaker cables? I went back and took a longer look at those amps. Yeah I only saw two of those and they were in a theater. Brother of mine worked as a projectionist.
Yeah Pro amps (QSC, Yamaha, Crown) are made for serious power output.You know, I've known of those QSC amps and of course the Crown amps also. Plus knowing many AH members use them in their Home HT setup's with great results. Yeah can't knock Long term reliability not to mention price per watt.
I found this Article on Class D ampsYeah Pro amps (QSC, Yamaha, Crown) are made for serious power output.
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Review and Measurements of QSC DCA2422 Amp
This is a review and detailed measurements of the QSC DCS2422 "Digital Cinema" Power Amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. It must be sold through specialty channel as I can't find it available much. From the bit of searching I did, it seems to go for US $550. This digital cinema...www.audiosciencereview.com
With THD+N of 0.05% and SINAD of 65dB, they aren’t going to win any awards for “state of the art” measurements.
Are these measurements audible? No, but some people have problem with SINAD of even 90dB.
So pro amps will output a lot of power and sound great, but they are ugly as hell and have non-SOTA measurement.
That’s great for some, and not good enough for some.
Correct, pro audio measures worse than SOTA and note that was a defective unit that was tested (note the one channel), the pro amp numbers are typically inline with most AVRs. I can't tell a difference between between the Denon 3600 and the QSC at 85db, it's only when I ask the Denon to do more than it can that I can hear a difference, in my large listening room.Yeah Pro amps (QSC, Yamaha, Crown) are made for serious power output.
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Review and Measurements of QSC DCA2422 Amp
This is a review and detailed measurements of the QSC DCS2422 "Digital Cinema" Power Amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. It must be sold through specialty channel as I can't find it available much. From the bit of searching I did, it seems to go for US $550. This digital cinema...www.audiosciencereview.com
With THD+N of 0.05% and SINAD of 65dB, they aren’t going to win any awards for “state of the art” measurements.
Are these measurements audible? No, but some people have problem with SINAD of even 90dB.
So pro amps will output a lot of power and sound great, but they are ugly as hell and have non-SOTA measurement.
That’s great for some, and not good enough for some.
As long as THD+N is 0.05% or better.... and Noise is low (you want noise down below -80db, preferably below -90db) - then you are well below thresholds of audibility...Yeah Pro amps (QSC, Yamaha, Crown) are made for serious power output.
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Review and Measurements of QSC DCA2422 Amp
This is a review and detailed measurements of the QSC DCS2422 "Digital Cinema" Power Amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member. It must be sold through specialty channel as I can't find it available much. From the bit of searching I did, it seems to go for US $550. This digital cinema...www.audiosciencereview.com
With THD+N of 0.05% and SINAD of 65dB, they aren’t going to win any awards for “state of the art” measurements.
Are these measurements audible? No, but some people have problem with SINAD of even 90dB.
So pro amps will output a lot of power and sound great, but they are ugly as hell and have non-SOTA measurement.
That’s great for some, and not good enough for some.
That’s what I said - these numbers of THD+N of 0.03% and SINAD of 70dB on the Crown and similar on the QSC and probably Yamaha pro amps are not audible.As long as THD+N is 0.05% or better.... and Noise is low (you want noise down below -80db, preferably below -90db) - then you are well below thresholds of audibility...
The Crowns have noise well controlled down below -100db... and THD although rated at 0.5% (which is too high!) - when actually measured ( https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/crown-xls2502-stereo-amplifier-review.10627/ ) the SINAD of over 70db, represents THD+N of better than 0.03%... (at 5 W / 4 ohm) - optimum results are at circa 100W... which I never use!
I agree 90%+ of use cases would be served perfectly well using the AVR amps.That’s what I said - these numbers of THD+N of 0.03% and SINAD of 70dB on the Crown and similar on the QSC and probably Yamaha pro amps are not audible.
But these numbers are not considered “SOTA” and that’s why they are just not good enough for some people.
AVRs like the Denon AVRs (3000, 6000, 8000 series) have SOTA measurements. So unless people truly need more power (which I would say 90% or more of people don’t need more power), why bother using amps that have poorer measurements than these AVR?
If the speaker system truly needs a lot more power (not just “feels” like it needs more power because people have to increase the volume knob), and the non-SOTA measurements don’t bother them like crazy, then I can see the point of buying these amps since the measurements are not audible.
Like I said, a lot of times it comes down to personal preferences, and not just sound quality. Some people want to buy cheaper amps, and some people want to buy amps like ATI, Bryston, McIntosh, Krell, Mark Levinson.
I agree with you 90% haha, it would be 95% if you lower that 10% case of yours to 1%. Think about for instance, on AH and AVR forums, how often do people list their speakers that have impedance dips below 2 ohms and align with not too friendly phase angles, and those that do, how many actually have such conditions, dips and/or high phase angle in the band that tend to demand high enough energy to be problematic?I agree 90%+ of use cases would be served perfectly well using the AVR amps.
My speakers happen to be in the other 10%... (contrary to what a number of subjective reviews claimed at the time I purchased them! ...which then led me down the path of experimenting with amplification - very educational!)
Althugh, I would argue that few AVR's/AVP's/ have true SOTA performance - the AV10 being one of the exceptions.
The regular Xx8xx series are not SOTA.... - look at the Benchmark AHB2 for SOTA amp performance, and the measurements of both the AVR's and the Amps at ASR.... although I believe that the additional performance may only be academic.
Not that I am knocking the AVR's - they are among the best performing AVR"s in the market, in objective measurements terms. - But in terms of amp, preamp, processor and DAC - pretty much every part of them - they are well below SOTA. But perfectly serviceable, and extremely unlikely to audibly differ from SOTA components/devices.
You don't have a stereo roadie?The issue is the physio bills after lugging it in and hefting it up!
Could well be 1% as you say...I agree with you 90% haha, it would be 95% if you lower that 10% case of yours to 1%. Think about for instance, on AH and AVR forums, how often do people list their speakers that have impedance dips below 2 ohms and align with not too friendly phase angles, and those that do, how many actually have such conditions, dips and/or high phase angle in the band that tend to demand high enough energy to be problematic?
I am thinking in addition to your speakers, the likes of the KEF, R and reference series, and B&W diamonds that might fit the category. Not to split hair, but 10% seems highly inflated, just my 2 cents.
FWIW, not really a big surprise, I have been testing an entry level Denon AVR that has only FL/FR preouts, with my buckeye amp that has 3 dB gain lower than the AVR amps. The speakers I have been using are D.Murphy's BMR, the original version that I DIY'ed. Those speakers sensitivity are quite low, seems lower than my LS50 (also original version), so I would put them in the neighborhood of 84 to 85 dB/2.83 V top, and impedance probably around 6 ohms nominal. I encounter not audible issue at volume higher than -10 and I am confident even at -5 they would still sound fine, and that's in a 11.5X20X9' room. It would have no trouble the LS50, that lots of forum talk about them being "difficult to drive". When I drive the speakers with the AVR's amps, they performed just the same, audibly speaking, I may try to increase volume to near 0, time permitting.
As often mentioned, talks like "amps clipped more often than people know", and "for real world use, people need much less "power" (or you can change it to "current") than they think they do, can both be true. The bottom line, we need to quality any such related claims with other factors/caveats. Overall, there aren't anywhere near 10% of hard to drive speakers that 90% of forum members need to worry, we'll never know what they number is though, admittedly, with a huge survey, but I would put it at below 5% for sure, potentially below 1%.
FWIW, I agreed with that, 99.99%.Could well be 1% as you say...
My personal favourite speakers have been electrostatics and Gallo - neither are exactly what one would call "standard" speakers, so I've become accustomed to living as an "edge case".
But I would posit, that in the rarified atmosphere of audiofoolia... where most of us have spent far more on audio, than 99.99% of the population would consider reasonable, average speakers, are frequently far from average!
Yeah I can 100% agree that <1% of audiophiles own speakers that dip down to 1-ohm.FWIW, I agreed with that, 99.99%.
It's impedance and phase, and where it falls within the response and I've seen it. Fortunately the speakers I've seen with real issues are never powered by an AVR, except the LSi series from Polk, they were a constant exception.I have not actually seen a case yet where the speaker impedance cause the AVR to shut down.
Why do you want mono block amps particularly? I'd get better speakers.I'm considering monoblocks for my system. I have B&W 702 S3 speakers and an amp 10. Has anyone used monoblocks and are you happy with them, would you recommend them?? thank you!
What's wrong with my speakers?Why do you want mono block amps particularly? I'd get better speakers.