Added some treatment with no results

[Tachead7075]

You can have a look at my living room and there are some REW measurements at the end of the thread. Link is in my signature.

With diffusers like the one in the middle of the speakers in the picture below, is that if you are too close you can hear distortion due to the different wells. For me I can't have them behind me on the back wall (too close), on the ceiling I'm uncertain what they will offer as they work from mids and above while bass is still a problem. The side walls are occupied either by bookshelves or windows.

I'm also a little perplexed as to why people put large diffusers behind front speakers in a stereo system as after a few hundred Hz the speaker will radiate toward the front and not much back. I have scatter plates on my panels on front wall mostly because they look nice

I'm using Tapatalk and have no idea how to see your Sig. Got an imgur link or the like?

I haven't got heavily into diffusion yet so this is best answered by others. I would work on bass frequencies first anyway as it sounds like you have more of an issue there. And yes, compromises suck lol. I have a bunch myself and it annoys me every day. Luckily I am going to buy a new house in the next couple of years with a better room acoustically and start building from the ground up based solely on acoustics. I will start with one tower, and amp, and a chair in the room and pick the best placements and go from there.

SBIR. Here, from your supplier. But yes, I think generally bass traps or broad band absorption would be a better choice for this.

Speaker Boundary Interference Response SBIR GIK Acoustics

SBIR is a term to describe how the proximity of a speaker to a hard boundary (wall/ceiling/floor) will change the response, especially in the low end

www.gikacoustics.com

 

[Trell]

I'm using Tapatalk and have no idea how to see your Sig. Got an imgur link or the like?

I haven't got heavily into diffusion yet so this is best answered by others. I would work on bass frequencies first anyway as it sounds like you have more of an issue there. And yes, compromises suck lol. I have a bunch myself and it annoys me every day. Luckily I am going to buy a new house in the next couple of years with a better room acoustically and start building from the ground up based solely on acoustics. I will start with one tower, and amp, and a chair in the room and pick the best placements and go from there.

SBIR. Here, from your supplier...

Speaker Boundary Interference Response SBIR GIK Acoustics

SBIR is a term to describe how the proximity of a speaker to a hard boundary (wall/ceiling/floor) will change the response, especially in the low end

www.gikacoustics.com

Sure, here is the link: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/trells-home-theatre-living-room.121330/

It's a work in progress

 

[Tachead7075]

Sure, here is the link: https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/trells-home-theatre-living-room.121330/

It's a work in progress

Nice, looks good. I am thinking the wall panels would work better lower down but, see what GIK says.

Your room is similar in ways to mine. I would try and do something about those first reflection points on the side walls(especially the windows). What is on the left wall(you said a bookshelf)? It's not in the pics. As for the right wall, I would have someone run a large vanity mirrow along it and find where the reflections from all of the base layer are. Then, find a way to put some broadband absorption there as it made a pretty big difference for me in my room. I have a large window about 4 feet from my left tower along almost the whole side wall. I am building a backer board to mount panels on that will attach to 3M command Velcro strips on the window so it can quickly be taken in and out of the window frame. This will allow us to still get light from the window and keep my GF happy while still achieving the desired affect when needed/wanted.

 

[ryanosaur]

This will allow us to still get light from the window and keep my GF happy lol.

Blech! A GF that likes light?!! SMDH
Just bite her and turn her into a vampire already!

 

[Tachead7075]

Blech! A GF that likes light?!! SMDH
Just bite her and turn her into a vampire already!

Lol, well I'll admit I like it too. I just like good sound better

 

[Tachead7075]

Oh, another thing Trell, I would experiment with the level of absorption behind your couch. Here is what I had originally(2" Broadband panels)...

http://imgur.com/E2sSk5T

I ended up finding it too dead sounding behind me. I proceeded to try several different setups. They are in order from first to what I have now...

http://imgur.com/a/ReBB9sc

So, you have even more absorption then I did originally but, you have scatter plates on your panels so I am not sure how much that changes things.

I ended up removing some of my absorption on the side walls too and now am just running 12 square feet of 2" Broadband on each side wall. Like you said, a work in progress...

 

[Endaar]

I hate it when folks post a thread like this, offer no feedback whatsoever and just stop replying...

I'm the OP. I found the first few replies to the thread rather condescending, which is why I chose to post a thank you and let it go at that.

I have no doubt in the accuracy of what most of you are posting. Point taken, room treatments require a lot of effort to get right. I should have done more research, fine. It was a few hundred dollar lesson and I've moved on.

That said, there is a disconnect when "don't forget room treatment" is a pretty standard refrain, yet it requires extensive research and possibly bringing in a professional. I can see that for a dedicated room being built from scratch but not as the general recommendation for any room that treatment seems to be.

Take care.

Endaar

 

[Trell]

Nice, looks good. I am thinking the wall panels would work better lower down but, see what GIK says.

I'm a very tall, or everyone else are very small, take your pick They are OK for me, but I plan to lower them a little and possibly putting some space behind them as well. In my experience GIK first addresses the big issues first.

Your room is similar in ways to mine. I would try and do something about those first reflection points on the side walls(especially the windows). What is on the left wall(you said a bookshelf)? It's not in the pics. As for the right wall, I would have someone run a large vanity mirrow along it and find where the reflections from all of the base layer are. Then, find a way to put some broadband absorption there as it made a pretty big difference for me in my room. I have a large window about 4 feet from my left tower along almost the whole side wall. I am building a backer board to mount panels on that will attach to 3M command Velcro strips on the window so it can quickly be taken in and out of the window frame. This will allow us to still get light from the window and keep my GF happy while still achieving the desired affect when needed/wanted.

Windows are a pretty big deal as I don't want to block them and have little desire to put up and take down room treatments.

 

[Trell]

Oh, another thing Trell, I would experiment with the level of absorption behind your couch. Here is what I had originally(2" Broadband panels)...

http://imgur.com/E2sSk5T

I ended up finding it too dead sounding behind me. I proceeded to try several different setups. They are in order from first to what I have now...

http://imgur.com/a/ReBB9sc

So, you have even more absorption then I did originally but, you have scatter plates on your panels so I am not sure how much that changes things.

The panels reflect quite a bit and helps keeping the room lively enough for listening to music, watching movies, but also to be a comfortable place to have conversations. In my first post in my HT thread I have links to the various panels I use and there are measurements available for them as well there.

 

[Tachead7075]

I'm a very tall, or everyone else are very small, take your pick They are OK for me, but I plan to lower them a little and possibly putting some space behind them as well. In my experience GIK first addresses the big issues first.



Windows are a pretty big deal as I don't want to block them and have little desire to put up and take down room treatments.

It's not just about how tall you are though it's about how the SBIR from the Towers, and the reflections from all speakers, interact with the wall behind them. Experimentation is key to getting the best sound in your room.

Yep, that's a personal decision and a compromise you may not be willing to make but, keep in mind it is definitely hurting your sound a fair amount. Also, keep in mind it is dark half the day or more. It's little effort to throw a panel array in a window before closing the blinds for the night and night is when most movies are watched(probably music too depending on your situation).

 

[Trell]

I'm the OP. I found the first few replies to the thread rather condescending, which is why I chose to post a thank you and let it go at that.

I have no doubt in the accuracy of what most of you are posting. Point taken, room treatments require a lot of effort to get right. I should have done more research, fine. It was a few hundred dollar lesson and I've moved on.

That said, there is a disconnect when "don't forget room treatment" is a pretty standard refrain, yet it requires extensive research and possibly bringing in a professional. I can see that for a dedicated room being built from scratch but not as the general recommendation for any room that treatment seems to be.

Take care.

Endaar

And they forget to mention that you needs tons of thick treatment. I get it

https://www.gikacoustics.com/ has free acoustic advice and are sensitive to your needs, budgets and other concerns. They also sell DIY, both in US and EU, and that is a good service because you can buy acoustically transparent cloth that is also fire resistant, and the Knaus line of materials is also more friendly to your health due to new binding materials. To buy this elsewhere is costly because you buy in such small quantities.

 

[Tachead7075]

The panels reflect quite a bit and helps keeping the room lively enough for listening to music, watching movies, but also to be a comfortable place to have conversations. In my first post in my HT thread I have links to the various panels I use and there are measurements available for them as well there.

A lot of this is personal preference too and everyones room is different so I just thought I would point it out. I didn't like that much absorbion behind me in my room personally. It would probably be different if the wall wasn't so close to my couch but, really most recommend significantly less absortion on the back wall compared to the front. In fact, with enough space diffusers are often preferred on the back wall. But, I know, we are dealing with compromises here so we have to do the best we can with our not ideal rooms.

Oh, and the measurements don't mean a whole lot when it comes to broadband absorption other then you want even absorbion throughout the frequency spectrum(unless you are targeting a peak or something). Liveliness is highly subjective as well and the amount preferred is often different depending on listening content(genre of music etc). There are guides to adequate XT60 numbers based on content/genre if you look around.

 

[Trell]

It's not just about how tall you are though it's about how the SBIR from the Towers, and the reflections from all speakers, interact with the wall behind them. Experimentation is key to getting the best sound in your room.

Yep, that's a personal decision and a compromise you may not be willing to make but, keep in mind it is definitely hurting your sound a fair amount. Also, keep in mind it is dark half the day or more. It's little effort to throw a panel array in a window before closing the blinds for the night and night is when most movies are watched(probably music too depending on your situation).

One recommendation is to have the speakers fairly close to the wall as that will "push" problematic frequencies higher and those will be easier to treat. Yeah, sounded weird to me the first time I heard it as well, and I seem to recall that was in one of the GIK education movies.

One could always test

 

[Pogre]

I'm the OP. I found the first few replies to the thread rather condescending, which is why I chose to post a thank you and let it go at that.

I have no doubt in the accuracy of what most of you are posting. Point taken, room treatments require a lot of effort to get right. I should have done more research, fine. It was a few hundred dollar lesson and I've moved on.

That said, there is a disconnect when "don't forget room treatment" is a pretty standard refrain, yet it requires extensive research and possibly bringing in a professional. I can see that for a dedicated room being built from scratch but not as the general recommendation for any room that treatment seems to be.

Take care.

Endaar

Who was condescending? I only asked you some questions, my apologies if that insulted you...

I've had a few expensive blunders along the way learning about this hobby. We all have. No one is judging you. The fact of the matter is, there's a lot of conflicting information out there along with a healthy dose of woo if you stumble across the right forums and/or snake oil peddlers. Stay away from magic cable pushers! It's always a good idea to do a healthy amount of homework, and challenge claims when it comes to spending money for improvements.

It's not like you royally screwed the pooch or anything. You can always start doing some more research now and go into it with a little more confidence. I think you've gotten some good advice and links to start with in this thread. You may even find a use for the panels you bought with the right knowledge for placement.

One thing you'll need that's pretty much an absolute necessity is some measuring gear, like a Umik mic which works with REW, a free program for acoustically measuring your room. REW will require some learning to use, but you don't need a physics degree. It's been invaluable helping me dial my system in. Trying to make improvements without measuring is just shooting in the dark.

 

[ryanosaur]

That said, there is a disconnect when "don't forget room treatment" is a pretty standard refrain

This is an excellent point to which I have found myself commenting all too frequently about. You are absolutely correct that MANY people with no experience or understanding talk about the importance of treating a room. This is even said at the expense of many other aspects of proper set up of the equipment and even just getting proper equipment.
We've seen threads and posts where rooms were self-treated prior to even having gear installed, others where you couldn't see any wall for all the treatments they jammed in, and this goes on and on.
As with anything online, one has to draw the line somewhere.
Cables, room treatments, synergy between amps and speakers... all of this is classic audiophoolery run amok.

You asked a question, two of us offered help. You dipped.
No skin off my back. I participate here in this forum to give back to a community that helped me when I asked basic questions. I participate here, too, because I also consider some of these people friends, in the way one can be friends online with only a handle and an avatar to associate with.
If you choose not to participate in the face of being challenged, or because you don't want to post photos, that is your choice.
All I can say is that the value of experience and thoughtfulness a majority of the regular participants here share in their free-time, and of their selfless interest in helping others, far outweighs one or two wry quips. Dog knows, I've had my share of barbed comments for some of the questions I asked. And for being challenged a little, I've learned, too.
So to see you say that our replies were condescending?! ...this only makes me think you were looking more for commiseration or affirmation rather than knowledge and help solving a problem.

Cheers.

 

[ryanosaur]

Who was condescending?

Four of us replied to his OP, and then we got "good day"ed. *shrugs

 

[Trell]

A lot of this is personal preference too and everyones room is different so I just thought I would point it out. I didn't like that much absorbion behind me in my room personally. It would probably be different if the wall wasn't so close to my couch but, really most recommend significantly less absortion on the back wall compared to the front. In fact, with enough space diffusers are often preferred on the back wall. But, I know, we are dealing with compromises here so we have to do the best we can with our not ideal rooms.

Of course this is preference, and it was not my intention to suggest anything else. Personally I would not like my HT room to sound like a properly treated vocal booth for a voice actor nor the liveliness of my bathroom (did I really write that?).

Oh, and the measurements don't mean a whole lot when it comes to broadband absorption other then you want even absorbion throughout the frequency spectrum(unless you are targeting a peak or something). Liveliness is highly subjective as well and the amount preferred is often different depending on listening content(genre of music etc). There are guides to adequate XT60 numbers based on content/genre if you look around.

But I wrote that I explicitly did not want broadband absorption in my small room because I intended to add a lot of panels and did not want a "dead" room, but measurements along with listening tests is what I have. What is going on in higher frequencies is still very relevant.

With respect to XT60, you mistyped that and meant RT60? It is not a good metric for small rooms: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_rt60.html

There are some metrics for liveliness when comparing to an anechoic chamber, I guess. What is acceptable liveliness depends, of course, on what one want to achieve. My bath room is quite lively and a recording there will show so.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There is always a lot of talk of the importance of room treatment. I have a room that I would think is a prime candidate for it. It’s asymmetrical, with the viewing area skewed up against the left wall, and roughly another 6’ of room to the right. My left front speaker is basically in the corner, and my right front has 4’ open behind it and the aforementioned 6’ to the right.

I saw one of the Audioholics videos which said that if the room is asymmetrical, to treat the side closer to the wall so that acoustically it becomes as symmetrical as possible. I’ve tried to do so and I am seeing zero impact.

Untreated, and without any DSP, REW shows my LF has a significant peak at 250Hz and from 350Hz – 425Hz. Speakers are Axiom M60v2, which are almost exactly 4’ high.

I purchased (4) 4’ x 1’ panels from Acoustimac, with 2” OC 703 as the core. The 703 shows significant NRC at 250Hz and 500Hz, and higher.

I just tried essentially every possible position of the (4) panels, and REW shows virtually no change. What little variation I see is well within a margin of error. I tried behind the LF, on the wall next to the left front, both, various positions on the side wall, etc.

For the heck of it I also tried behind my center channel – no change.

I’m at a loss. I could understand if they didn’t work well and didn’t improve things, but I certainly expected some measurable difference.

Appreciate any feedback. Thanks.

Endaar

You're not the only one.

I bought acoustic panels in my previous house. They didn't make any difference either.

I have concluded that the best room treatment is the natural room treatment - thick large area rugs for your hard surface floor, window blinds and curtains, pillows and blankets for for sofas.

 

[Tachead7075]

Of course this is preference, and it was not my intention to suggest anything else. Personally I would not like my HT room to sound like a properly treated vocal booth for a voice actor nor the liveliness of my bathroom (did I really write that?).



But I wrote that I explicitly did not want broadband absorption in my small room because I intended to add a lot of panels and did not want a "dead" room, but measurements along with listening tests is what I have. What is going on in higher frequencies is still very relevant.

With respect to XT60, you mistyped that and meant RT60? It is not a good metric for small rooms: https://www.roomeqwizard.com/help/help_en-GB/html/graph_rt60.html

There are some metrics for liveliness when comparing to an anechoic chamber, I guess. What is acceptable liveliness depends, of course, on what one want to achieve. My bath room is quite lively and a recording there will show so.

I wasn't suggesting you were. I was just pointing out that there is a certain amount of subjectivity to this as some think there is a template for everyone.

Oh sorry, I thought you meant panel measurements/specs. And, those GIK panels you have are broadband absorbers that just have a faceplate. Yes, the whole frequency spectrum is relevant but, low frequencies are much much harder to deal with.

Yes, RT60. It can be used in conjunction with other measurements, I have no idea how room size affects it though as I am still learning too.

Yep, it all depends in your listening preferences and what you want out of your room. That said, liveliness aside, one should be shooting for as smooth of a frequency response as possible in your preferred flavor of course.

 

[Tachead7075]

You're not the only one.

I bought acoustic panels in my previous house. They didn't make any difference either.

I have concluded that the best room treatment is the natural room treatment - thick large area rugs for your hard surface floor, window blinds and curtains, pillows and blankets for for sofas.

There was almost certainly a difference if you look at all the metrics/measurements. Whether it was big enough to warrant the expense/aesthetics is another story though.

Blankets, curtains, etc. absorb mainly high frequencies and generally have uneven absorption across the frequency spectrum. This makes them a poor choice for room treatment comparatively by all accounts including professional techs.