Active Cross-overs

[lsiberian]

Well, here's my system. Boy, those photos sure look grainy when they're compressed that much. So far, I've been able to keep my wife from putting more stuff on the shelves beside the speakers. As you can see, putting those speakers on stands will stand out like a really sore thumb. There's just no space for them. The other end of the room opens up to the hallway and the dining room.

I still have to build a cabinet for my components. It'll go directly opposite the present position, to where the end table currently resides. The subwoofer will stay where it is.

So, it boils down to the following options:

1) Buy or make wall-mount brackets for the speakers and mount them out on the side walls.

2) Put some acoustic panels behind the RC-10s. The space is about 16" x 32", but the treatment could only be about 3" thick max. Would that be of much benefit? I just don't want to go through the expense, time and effort to put something in there that won't make any practical difference.
(gs222, thanks for the offer of the port plugs, but I don't think they'll be helpful in this location. I appreciate it though).

3) Buy in-wall speakers. The ones I have in mind are the Axiom M-22 in-walls. They have a backer box already, so I wouldn't have to mess around with that. I'm thinking the dual woofers would do a better job of moving the air in such a large space. I could probably convince my wife that the expense is worthwhile, since I'll be freeing up the shelf to do whatever she wants with it.

There are two concerns with this option though.

These are the exterior walls, which are not insulated , as it's an older house, built of brick. Brick requires an air space so that any dampness, due to condensation, on the inside face of the brick can dry out. Makes it easy to run wires though . It gets pretty cold here in the winter - should I be concerned about the drivers getting quite cold? I should probably ask Axiom about that...

Plus, as mentioned before, installing in-wall speakers would require that the tweeters be very high up the wall. I could build a wedge-shaped box frame to angle them down a bit.

Those M22's really appeal to me though...

4) Leave well enough alone. Maybe I'm just being anal in thinking that I need to do something to improve my SQ. I've looked at a lot of the photos of members systems and many of them have subwoofers in corners and floorstanders just a few inches from the back wall. They don't seem to complain much about SQ, due to speaker placement.

Any thoughts?

I'd sound treat the room under the guise of insulation.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'd sound treat the room under the guise of insulation.

She's too smart to fall for that...

 

[TLS Guy]

Well, here's my system. Boy, those photos sure look grainy when they're compressed that much. So far, I've been able to keep my wife from putting more stuff on the shelves beside the speakers. As you can see, putting those speakers on stands will stand out like a really sore thumb. There's just no space for them. The other end of the room opens up to the hallway and the dining room.

I still have to build a cabinet for my components. It'll go directly opposite the present position, to where the end table currently resides. The subwoofer will stay where it is.

So, it boils down to the following options:

1) Buy or make wall-mount brackets for the speakers and mount them out on the side walls.

2) Put some acoustic panels behind the RC-10s. The space is about 16" x 32", but the treatment could only be about 3" thick max. Would that be of much benefit? I just don't want to go through the expense, time and effort to put something in there that won't make any practical difference.
(gs222, thanks for the offer of the port plugs, but I don't think they'll be helpful in this location. I appreciate it though).

3) Buy in-wall speakers. The ones I have in mind are the Axiom M-22 in-walls. They have a backer box already, so I wouldn't have to mess around with that. I'm thinking the dual woofers would do a better job of moving the air in such a large space. I could probably convince my wife that the expense is worthwhile, since I'll be freeing up the shelf to do whatever she wants with it.

There are two concerns with this option though.

These are the exterior walls, which are not insulated , as it's an older house, built of brick. Brick requires an air space so that any dampness, due to condensation, on the inside face of the brick can dry out. Makes it easy to run wires though . It gets pretty cold here in the winter - should I be concerned about the drivers getting quite cold? I should probably ask Axiom about that...

Plus, as mentioned before, installing in-wall speakers would require that the tweeters be very high up the wall. I could build a wedge-shaped box frame to angle them down a bit.

Those M22's really appeal to me though...

4) Leave well enough alone. Maybe I'm just being anal in thinking that I need to do something to improve my SQ. I've looked at a lot of the photos of members systems and many of them have subwoofers in corners and floorstanders just a few inches from the back wall. They don't seem to complain much about SQ, due to speaker placement.

Any thoughts?

If you could take out the cabinets either side of the fireplace, you would have room for some good slim floor standing loudspeakers. It would be nice to find a way to install the equipment out of site also.

 

[GO-NAD!]

If you could take out the cabinets either side of the fireplace, you would have room for some good slim floor standing loudspeakers. It would be nice to find a way to install the equipment out of site also.

I just put those cabinets in a few months ago. I had to move my Monitor
9's (they sounded great in the living room - sigh) to the rec room to do that. I accepted the fact that whatever speakers replaced the 9's would have to be small and that there was going to be a SQ compromise, because of the location. I'm just trying to find a way to mitigate that. I did the fireplace as well and put a lot of work into that, as well as the cabinets, so there won't be any going back.

Although they don't sound bad, per se, the RC-10's do sound a bit "closed in". It's kinda hard to explain. It's not too bad at low volumes, but if I want to crank it up, it's quite noticeable. Would that be the standing wave causing that? Could it be the size of the speakers, not being able to move enough air in the space? The living room is about 1800 cubic feet and the dining room, which adjoins it, in an "L" configuration, is another 800 cubic feet.

I'll be making a stand for the components this fall or winter. It'll sit on the floor at the end of the couch, instead of on a table above the subwoofer, so it'll be much less obtrusive.

Thanks for the input!

 

[TLS Guy]

I just put those cabinets in a few months ago. I had to move my Monitor
9's (they sounded great in the living room - sigh) to the rec room to do that. I accepted the fact that whatever speakers replaced the 9's would have to be small and that there was going to be a SQ compromise, because of the location. I'm just trying to find a way to mitigate that. I did the fireplace as well and put a lot of work into that, as well as the cabinets, so there won't be any going back.

Although they don't sound bad, per se, the RC-10's do sound a bit "closed in". It's kinda hard to explain. It's not too bad at low volumes, but if I want to crank it up, it's quite noticeable. Would that be the standing wave causing that? Could it be the size of the speakers, not being able to move enough air in the space? The living room is about 1800 cubic feet and the dining room, which adjoins it, in an "L" configuration, is another 800 cubic feet.

I'll be making a stand for the components this fall or winter. It'll sit on the floor at the end of the couch, instead of on a table above the subwoofer, so it'll be much less obtrusive.

Thanks for the input!

Oh dear! It seems you make a small cave between the fireplace, the wall, the cabinet top and the ceiling. The cabinets themselves are also likely resonating. Does it change the sound if you open the cabinet doors? I would agree the speakers are too small for the space also.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Oh dear! It seems you make a small cave between the fireplace, the wall, the cabinet top and the ceiling. The cabinets themselves are also likely resonating. Does it change the sound if you open the cabinet doors? I would agree the speakers are too small for the space also.

No, I don't think the cabinets are resonating, but I'll check more closely. They are made from 3/4" MDF, except the tops, which are 1" solid maple. Since I was painting the cabinets, I didn't feel the need to spend more on solid wood. They are very solidly assembled and firmly attached to the walls and fireplace.

I didn't think the speakers were big enough, but the only way I can think of to accomodate larger, is to go in-wall.

I really like the concept of Axiom's "in-cabinet" M60's, but it's too late to incorporate those...

 

[GO-NAD!]

Full Disclosure...

I actually started another thread on the same topic in "Room Acoustics, System Setup & Layout", because the conversation seemed to be drifting in that direction.

Hope that doesn't bother anybody. I apologise, if it does.

 

[TLS Guy]

No, I don't think the cabinets are resonating, but I'll check more closely. They are made from 3/4" MDF, except the tops, which are 1" solid maple. Since I was painting the cabinets, I didn't feel the need to spend more on solid wood. They are very solidly assembled and firmly attached to the walls and fireplace.

I didn't think the speakers were big enough, but the only way I can think of to accomodate larger, is to go in-wall.

I really like the concept of Axiom's "in-cabinet" M60's, but it's too late to incorporate those...

Any closed volume has a resonance, no matter how rigid the walls. The size of those cabinets leads me to believe they likely have a resonance in the 30 to 40 Hz range.

It would have been much better to have thought this through before building the cabinets. You have created a bad situation. May be you should consider turning the cabinets into speakers?

 

[GO-NAD!]

Any closed volume has a resonance, no matter how rigid the walls. The size of those cabinets leads me to believe they likely have a resonance in the 30 to 40 Hz range.

It would have been much better to have thought this through before building the cabinets. You have created a bad situation. May be you should consider turning the cabinets into speakers?

Da-n straight, I should've thought this through before building the cabinets! I'll check to see if opening the doors makes a difference in the sound.

I like the idea of incorporating speakers into the cabinets, but I would expect stiff resistance to that idea. I've received a suggestion to mount the speakers on extendable wall brackets/sliding shelves in their present location, so that they could be pulled out into the room further when required. Any thoughts on that? Or, since you agree that the speakers are small for the space, should I forget that and try to incorporate something larger?

 

[TLS Guy]

Da-n straight, I should've thought this through before building the cabinets! I'll check to see if opening the doors makes a difference in the sound.

I like the idea of incorporating speakers into the cabinets, but I would expect stiff resistance to that idea. I've received a suggestion to mount the speakers on extendable wall brackets/sliding shelves in their present location, so that they could be pulled out into the room further when required. Any thoughts on that? Or, since you agree that the speakers are small for the space, should I forget that and try to incorporate something larger?

I think the bracket plan has merit. However getting more robust speakers in a decent location would be excellent.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I think the bracket plan has merit. However getting more robust speakers in a decent location would be excellent.

I wonder if "more robust speakers in a decent location", while remaining unobtrusive are irreconcilable. I suspect "on-wall" or "in-wall" would be my only options, unless somebody can suggest otherwise. I realize that a lot of people consider in-wall speakers to be a step down from hi-fidelity, but I don't know of any wall-mountable speakers that will fill my space. Any suggestions?

 

[TLS Guy]

I wonder if "more robust speakers in a decent location", while remaining unobtrusive are irreconcilable. I suspect "on-wall" or "in-wall" would be my only options, unless somebody can suggest otherwise. I realize that a lot of people consider in-wall speakers to be a step down from hi-fidelity, but I don't know of any wall-mountable speakers that will fill my space. Any suggestions?

I think good in walls, might be a good solution for you, as long as they do not get too high.

 

[jostenmeat]

I wonder if "more robust speakers in a decent location", while remaining unobtrusive are irreconcilable. I suspect "on-wall" or "in-wall" would be my only options, unless somebody can suggest otherwise.

TLS jogged my memory of a guy who put some PSB towers into the walls, surrounded by insulation, and I was about to post the images, but I now decided against it. To do that with your present cabinets means the speakers are just too low. If you still want to see, I'll link them.

I realize that a lot of people consider in-wall speakers to be a step down from hi-fidelity, but I don't know of any wall-mountable speakers that will fill my space. Any suggestions?

I'm not sure that it's a case of being NOT hifi, but just that you pay a lot more, comparatively to typical bookshelfs/towers, if you want them to be hifi. When I think of hifi, inwalls, bigger budgets, I think of Triad and James for instance.

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/iwg6lcr.html
http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/intropagelcrscenter.html

http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/index.cfm?page=inwall
http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/

 

[GO-NAD!]

TLS jogged my memory of a guy who put some PSB towers into the walls, surrounded by insulation, and I was about to post the images, but I now decided against it. To do that with your present cabinets means the speakers are just too low. If you still want to see, I'll link them.

I'm not sure that it's a case of being NOT hifi, but just that you pay a lot more, comparatively to typical bookshelfs/towers, if you want them to be hifi. When I think of hifi, inwalls, bigger budgets, I think of Triad and James for instance.

http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/iwg6lcr.html
http://www.triadspeakers.com/products/intropagelcrscenter.html

http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/index.cfm?page=inwall
http://www.jamesloudspeaker.com/

No, I can't see installing them in the cabinets as a viable option. As for the Triads and James, I checked out prices and - they are NOT inexpensive. If I were to consider any kind of in-wall speaker, I would consider something in the $800/pr range. I might even go $1000, depending on the speaker in question. If I were to go with an in-wall, the goal would be to get something that will "fill the room". So, it would probably have to be larger than my RC-10's, with multiple mid/bass drivers. An in-wall LCR perhaps?

TLS Guy mentioned that they shouldn't be too high. Well there would be no avoiding that. So, would a wall sconce-shaped insert to get the speakers aimed at the general listening position be a good idea? I say "general" listening position, because I can't get a chair in the sweet pot (if there actually is one) on a permanent basis, as it would be in the traffic area. So the speakers need to have fairly wide dispersion - horns need not apply!

 

[jostenmeat]

If I were to go with an in-wall, the goal would be to get something that will "fill the room". So, it would probably have to be larger than my RC-10's, with multiple mid/bass drivers. An in-wall LCR perhaps?

I was thinking in-wall only for aesthetic concerns. I'm going to take the liberty of reposting your image here, so that others get a better idea in helping you:

I have to ask, when you posted in the acoustics area, it seemed you wanted to improve SQ, but I ask you now, exactly which areas? Is it power handling? Imaging? Tighter sound? More bass?

The cheapest thing you can try for imaging is to lose the lamp, hide the electronics, and play with spacing and toe-in as I mentioned earlier.

For greater sound stage, or perceived stereo width, the better the offaxis response is of your speakers, the better it will sound, and most specifically when the sidewalls are left untreated.

As for more bass, and/or "bigger sound"... well, let me back-track: I like the *practical* idea of a mounted bookshelf by using the keyholes on the back of a speaker. The problem here is that it's usually only the smaller speakers that have these. Recently ceiling mounting some rear speakers myself, the selection of speaker mounts that can hold any significant weight is slim at best.

What I like about keyhole mounts is that you have less resonance/coupling with a shelf, and it's very easy to angle (don't worry about the speaker falling off and hurting itself, and other things, when getting aggressive with a downward angle). My *guess* for wall mounting such speaker locations would be roughly 1.5 ft from sidewalls, and just high enough to clear your items on the shelves. But, see, I worry about the aesthetics.

Another possibility, I suppose, is having them mounted on the side walls, with some significant space away from the front wall, with an aggressive toe-in. That tall lamp will cause issues, however.

TLS Guy mentioned that they shouldn't be too high. Well there would be no avoiding that. So, would a wall sconce-shaped insert to get the speakers aimed at the general listening position be a good idea? I say "general" listening position, because I can't get a chair in the sweet pot (if there actually is one) on a permanent basis, as it would be in the traffic area. So the speakers need to have fairly wide dispersion - horns need not apply!

I think it can sound satisfactory, given the compromises inherent to this room, with proper angling.

The Ascend 170SE has keyholes, only costs roughly $350/pr, has very good offaxis response, but . . . pretty they are not.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I was thinking in-wall only for aesthetic concerns. I'm going to take the liberty of reposting your image here, so that others get a better idea in helping you:

I have to ask, when you posted in the acoustics area, it seemed you wanted to improve SQ, but I ask you now, exactly which areas? Is it power handling? Imaging? Tighter sound? More bass?

The cheapest thing you can try for imaging is to lose the lamp, hide the electronics, and play with spacing and toe-in as I mentioned earlier.

For greater sound stage, or perceived stereo width, the better the offaxis response is of your speakers, the better it will sound, and most specifically when the sidewalls are left untreated.

As for more bass, and/or "bigger sound"... well, let me back-track: I like the *practical* idea of a mounted bookshelf by using the keyholes on the back of a speaker. The problem here is that it's usually only the smaller speakers that have these. Recently ceiling mounting some rear speakers myself, the selection of speaker mounts that can hold any significant weight is slim at best.

What I like about keyhole mounts is that you have less resonance/coupling with a shelf, and it's very easy to angle (don't worry about the speaker falling off and hurting itself, and other things, when getting aggressive with a downward angle). My *guess* for wall mounting such speaker locations would be roughly 1.5 ft from sidewalls, and just high enough to clear your items on the shelves. But, see, I worry about the aesthetics.

Another possibility, I suppose, is having them mounted on the side walls, with some significant space away from the front wall, with an aggressive toe-in. That tall lamp will cause issues, however.

I think it can sound satisfactory, given the compromises inherent to this room, with proper angling.

The Ascend 170SE has keyholes, only costs roughly $350/pr, has very good offaxis response, but . . . pretty they are not.

Well, the SQ problem that I perceive, is a "bloated" bass, for lack of better words, that seems to smother the mids. So, when the volume is raised to any significant degree, the bass is there, but isn't clear. I suppose you could say that it isn't tight. And I believe that the imaging suffers as a consequence. The RC-10's aren't top of the line speakers, but I think they're better than what I'm hearing. The sub is relatively cheap and cheerful and doesn't plumb the depths that a more expensive sub will, but it's better than a lot of others I've heard.

I would say that the problem is mainly due to placement. With most of the musical information being in the mid-range, and with the overemphasized bass interfering, could that be why the sound seems closed in and not room-filling (Other than bloated bass, that is)?

For wall mounting, there is a threaded insert in the back of each speaker, so I can bolt a bracket to it. I suspect that I will have to fabricate a bracket myself, in order for it to be strong enough to support the weight at a sufficient distance from the wall.

I had been thinking about a post that came straight out from the wall behind the present location of the speakers. However, it would have to be quite long to be effective, and bulky in order to support the weight. I also thought of making it telescopic, so that the speakers could be pushed back inside the shelf when not in use. I could probably suspend a bracket support, or hanger from the shelf above the speaker, to reinforce the bracket.

A side wall mount could be shorter, but I wouldn't be able to get the speaker very far from the side wall, I suspect.

You also asked about power handling. At the beginning of my inquiries, I mentioned an electronic cross-over, in order to tone down the bass bloating and to take some of the loading off the speakers. But, that was nixed as being ineffective, unless I used some equalisation to tame the mid-upper bass. So, if I got the speakers further away from the wall as well as employing an electronic crossover, would that help? Or, would further equalisation still be needed, in order to make it worthwhile?

Thanks very much for all your input. I think, in the end, a solution will come out of this.

 

[GO-NAD!]

The cheapest thing you can try for imaging is to lose the lamp, hide the electronics, and play with spacing and toe-in as I mentioned earlier.

Another possibility, I suppose, is having them mounted on the side walls, with some significant space away from the front wall, with an aggressive toe-in. That tall lamp will cause issues, however.

Forgot to mention, I will be making a stand/cabinet for the components and when they are relocated, I can move lamp as well.

 

[jostenmeat]

Well, the SQ problem that I perceive, is a "bloated" bass, for lack of better words, that seems to smother the mids. So, when the volume is raised to any significant degree, the bass is there, but isn't clear. I suppose you could say that it isn't tight. And I believe that the imaging suffers as a consequence. The RC-10's aren't top of the line speakers, but I think they're better than what I'm hearing. The sub is relatively cheap and cheerful and doesn't plumb the depths that a more expensive sub will, but it's better than a lot of others I've heard.

Thanks, this makes things a lot more specific. Yes, bloated bass is very common. I think it is indeed a factor of placement, cabinet resonance or speaker performance in general. Where YOU sit makes a difference too, but I'm under the impression that it sounds this way to you from different listening positions.

Boosted midbass frequencies indeed mask the higher frequencies. The sense of transparency is compromised for sure.

I would say that the problem is mainly due to placement. With most of the musical information being in the mid-range, and with the overemphasized bass interfering, could that be why the sound seems closed in and not room-filling (Other than bloated bass, that is)? . . .

For wall mounting, there is a threaded insert in the back of each speaker . . .

. . . A side wall mount could be shorter, but I wouldn't be able to get the speaker very far from the side wall, I suspect.

"You would say" . . . Well, the biggest thing I think about here, the single piece of advice that comes to the forefront for me with this post, is the process of elimination. While it's a hassle in one sense, the time spent would give you more peace of mind when cutting holes in the wall, and/or other "permanent" types of changes.

What do I mean? I mean to really narrow it down to how much it's the placement's fault, vs the room's fault, vs the speaker's fault.

How do you experiment to find out? Here are some ideas that immediately come to mind:

- Bring in another pair of good speakers into that same room
- take your existing pair, and/or another pair, into a different room of the home
- put the energys on stands right in front of the resonating cabinets
- try TLS' idea of leaving all alone for the moment, playing back with the cabinet doors open
- putting even more decoupling material underneath the speakers

See, then you can more easily have an idea of placement, physically in 3D space, vs being coupled to cabinets. Also, yet another idea is to bring the speakers closer to the lip of the cabinets. If your LP is against the back wall, that already puts you at a major disadvantage, as that whole bass masking upper frequencies thing rears its head again. Among other things.

If you see that it's not so much the cabinets resonating, but really it's just the ballpark positioning, then you know that jimmying up some more extreme changes in order to find ideal positioning WILL pay a big dividend.

You also asked about power handling. At the beginning of my inquiries, I mentioned an electronic cross-over, in order to tone down the bass bloating and to take some of the loading off the speakers. But, that was nixed as being ineffective, unless I used some equalisation to tame the mid-upper bass. So, if I got the speakers further away from the wall as well as employing an electronic crossover, would that help? Or, would further equalisation still be needed, in order to make it worthwhile?

I use an automatic EQ, Audyssey XT, and IMO it's super helpful. And I say that when implementing this EQ after months of already having double digit acoustic panels, among other treatments.

The most cost effective way to implement this kind of tech is surely the least attractive way for a 2 ch system, and that is using an HT receiver as pre/pro.

Otherwise, with much more involvement with numerous measurements, correlating data, you can do the EQ yourself manually with a different device. If there isn't the single ideal LP, you will probably have to do tons of measurements and tweaking.

Anyhoo, as unattractive as the HT receiver sounds, in my humble opinion, the auto EQ technology of today is really cool stuff, whether that might be ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov and the like.

Or, the most affordable pre/pro with this kind of thing is Integra/Onkyo line.

bandphan has noted that stand alone, mid level (read somewhat affordable) RC devices are on their way. You'd have to ask him though.

Thanks very much for all your input. I think, in the end, a solution will come out of this.

You're welcome, and I'm keeping my hopes up for you too.

 

[GO-NAD!]

- Bring in another pair of good speakers into that same room
- take your existing pair, and/or another pair, into a different room of the home
- put the energys on stands right in front of the resonating cabinets
- try TLS' idea of leaving all alone for the moment, playing back with the cabinet doors open
- putting even more decoupling material underneath the speakers

See, then you can more easily have an idea of placement, physically in 3D space, vs being coupled to cabinets. Also, yet another idea is to bring the speakers closer to the lip of the cabinets. If your LP is against the back wall, that already puts you at a major disadvantage, as that whole bass masking upper frequencies thing rears its head again. Among other things.

I use an automatic EQ, Audyssey XT, and IMO it's super helpful. And I say that when implementing this EQ after months of already having double digit acoustic panels, among other treatments.

The most cost effective way to implement this kind of tech is surely the least attractive way for a 2 ch system, and that is using an HT receiver as pre/pro.

Otherwise, with much more involvement with numerous measurements, correlating data, you can do the EQ yourself manually with a different device. If there isn't the single ideal LP, you will probably have to do tons of measurements and tweaking.

Anyhoo, as unattractive as the HT receiver sounds, in my humble opinion, the auto EQ technology of today is really cool stuff, whether that might be ARC, Audyssey, Trinnov and the like.

Or, the most affordable pre/pro with this kind of thing is Integra/Onkyo line.

bandphan has noted that stand alone, mid level (read somewhat affordable) RC devices are on their way. You'd have to ask him though.

You're welcome, and I'm keeping my hopes up for you too.

- I can try another pair - I can use my Mordaunt Shorts from my HT for comparison. I did a comparison between these two pairs of speakers, on stands, before the cabinets were installed. At that time, I couldn't hear enough of a difference to say that one was better than the other. However, you never know, the MS's may be "happier" sitting on the cabinet than the Energys.
- I'll also try them on stands again, in front of the cabinets and see what happens.
- I tried opening the doors, but I couldn't hear an iota of difference.
- What kind of de-coupling material would you suggest?

Maybe you can't tell from the photos, but I have the speakers at the front edge of the cabinets now and there is about 6" of space between thema nd the behind. As for my listening position fortunately, it'll never be against the back wall, as that end of the room opens up to the hallway and the dining room. When I want to sit in a "proper" listening position, I just pull my rocker to the centre of the room.

I'm not going to be able to incorporate any acoustic panels in the room, as it is my living room and not a dedicated listening room. The WAF will not allow for it. I really can't see myself purchasing another HT receiver either.

I was thinking that one of the Behringer products would suit my needs which, at a minimum, would be crossing over my speakers at 80Hz. If I cannot acheive sufficient improvement in SQ through positioning, I would think that equalization is also in order. I don't mind taking measurements and tweaking settings. I have a SPL metre now and a Rives Test CD on order. I have a different test CD now, but it doesn't span the full range of frequencies.

Thanks once again!

 

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for the explanation of the things you've tried and tested. You're even willing to compare your two speaker models, but are you against trying the idea of putting those Energy's in another room, in order to be more sure if your lack of complete satisfaction stems whatsoever from the speaker itself?

- What kind of de-coupling material would you suggest?

I don't know want decouples better as a material. Of course, I had already mentioned the Mopads, from Auralex which is the same company that makes the most popular sub decoupling platforms in the Grammas and smaller Subdudes.

If willing to build something, I wonder if placing them on a small acoustical treatment (custom made of course, to be unobtrusive) would help to absorb some midrange (and hopefully lower midrange) affecting the boundary interaction with the cabinet. See, I wonder how much resonance is still created even if that speaker was not at all touching the cabinet, but say in free space just a few millimeters away. I'm just wondering out loud. But, here's what the mopads look like, not exactly sexy, but perhaps not too obtrusively ugly either:

I was thinking that one of the Behringer products would suit my needs which, at a minimum, would be crossing over my speakers at 80Hz. If I cannot acheive sufficient improvement in SQ through positioning, I would think that equalization is also in order. I don't mind taking measurements and tweaking settings. I have a SPL metre now and a Rives Test CD on order. I have a different test CD now, but it doesn't span the full range of frequencies.

Thanks once again!

I agree that the Behringer products, perhaps namely the DCX, could be a great boon. One of the first people I'd probably try to bother in helping me implement one is our respected moderator, annunaki.

My crystal ball tells me that dual stereo hidden in-wall subs are in your future.