About to give up, please help!!!

[adwilk]

I Really appriciate all the information I have received in this forum. For me this is a big purchase even tho I know that many here dont consider a 3k budget much for a ht system. But big or small budget I just really want make a good decision and not feel pressured into buying something I'm not sure about. This has been a big learning experience for me and I feel more confident about my decision now. THANK YOU ALL!

3 grand is A LOT of money, especially to spend on something that ends up being a source of frustration. You should enjoy the process and ultimately end up with something that makes your wife happy.

 

[robc1976]

Every single claim you make is highly subjective.

Never said they where not dyanamic but with XPA-5 it made a huge difference, it also depends on what volume you listen to, room, ECT...measurments do not lie. also wich this does not mean much but if the amp does nothing why did adudyssey set the trim levels down by 5-6DB?? I Never said louder, I said a much better sound (detail, dynamics Ect). My wife even noticed man LOL!!

Does the person in this thread need it, probally not....but he never stated what his listeing levels are ECT....not trying to argue with ya...I respect your opinion.

 

[robc1976]

3 grand is A LOT of money, especially to spend on something that ends up being a source of frustration. You should enjoy the process and ultimately end up with something that makes your wife happy.

That I TOTALLY agree with.

 

[adwilk]

measurments do not lie....... I said a much better sound (detail, dynamics Ect).

These are things that can't be measured.. Agree to disagree... Either way, I wouldn't mind sitting in one of those chairs of yours and getting blasted away.

 

[robc1976]

These are things that can't be measured.. Agree to disagree... Either way, I wouldn't mind sitting in one of those chairs of yours and getting blasted away.

LOL!! that I can agree with....I do see what your saying though...I am know for over-kill...but I like a LOT of headroom!

 

[Riv92]

As long as the sound justifies the time & money spent I think we'll be happy. Hopefully that will happen. One quick question, should I stil move the new sub next to the couch? If so I would need a sub cable about 60 ft long. Will that length be a problem? and where can I find one?

 

[TLS Guy]

As long as the sound justifies the time & money spent I think we'll be happy. Hopefully that will happen. One quick question, should I stil move the new sub next to the couch? If so I would need a sub cable about 60 ft long. Will that length be a problem? and where can I find one?

I have had a look at the pictures.

First you can't put the speakers right against the wall. That whole unit and speakers need pulling out at least 10" for a start.

I don't know if you have the wrong speakers or not. Klipsch are not accurate and are too bright in the top end. You and especially your wife need to audition. Women especially are driven up the wall by hard HF from horns. However horns will tend to throw the sound the distance, to the back of the room.

I think in that space, those B & W speakers are going to stress that receiver and may well blow it up. So if you keep those speakers you need better amplification for the B & Ws.

May be listen to Def Techs?

In that space you will have a lot of bass leakage, and you need a big powerful ported sub in the location suggested, not where it is now.

I think a surround system in your situation is a waste of time. I would pick good mains, center and sub. In fact in that room having surrounds will be a definite detriment. You will be too near them and too far from the mains and center, which will spoil clarity and speech definition. Definitely forget about surrounds in your situation

And by the way, there are a lot of rooms on these forums, that should also not have surrounds, so you are not alone. Less will be more in this room.

So pull the main speakers into the room.

I would get speakers that are more sensitive and an easier drive. Get a big ported sub in the back of the room, as a starting placement.

Things will be much better then.

 

[lsiberian]

Every single claim you make is highly subjective. Adding wattage to a system where a speaker will "almost" never require it won't magically add detail. The sensitivity and impedance curve of the RC64 and RF7II just don't need the extra power. Both of those speakers are capable of extreme dynamic output with any AVR.

Agreed, the RB-62 is a MUCH better speaker than the S20. You just won't be able to tell a difference when used for surround duty. If there was an improvement, it would be minor- treated room or not. If a lot of multi-channel music were being listened to, I'd steer back toward the reference line. Given the budget, the money is much better spent elsewhere.

You are correct on both points adding an external amp with sensitive speakers makes little sense when you are spending so little on a sub. 900 for the sub will get you a better setup than 600 and an external amp.

I personally wouldn't buy the RF series as they are overly bright for my tastes. I felt the Energy MTM speakers beat them in my listening tests.

I apologize, but what is the distance from the speakers to the couch? Also, If you can move them away from the TV more you'd get a better soundsstage. Bring them away from the wall too. Honestly I'd just upgrade your sub and make some adjustments and mount the surrounds on the side walls before I'd start changing speakers.

I see it's 5 meters away. Sensitivity is 90db at 1 meter. 105db is the dynamic goal(30 db above THX) To reach that we much use 2, 4, 8, 16 watts if your speakers is the full 5 meters. Now we need to tack on the distance. 32,64,128,256. You need 256 watts(too high for receiver and speakers) on those speakers to get the full dynamic range. If you can move the seating and/or speakers a combined 1 meter closer you would be golden for THX dynamic needs.

 

[sholling]

Around 600. What should I be looking for in a quality sub & what companies make good ones?

The total volume of the space plus placement dictates the subwoofer budget. I'd send the photos and drawing that I suggested in my 1st post and contact SVSounds and Possibly eD but I don't think you have the floor space for a pair of 15" subs. Speaker companies such as Klipsch, Polk etc do not offer the performance bang for the buck that internet-direct subwoofer specialists like Elemental Designs (eD), Hsu Research, Rythmik Subwoofers, and SVSound bring to the table.

I'd also follow the advice of moving the sub or subs back behind the sofa. You can use Outlaw Audio's wireless subwoofer connector, I use one and it works fine. If you going with two subs you can get a second receiver. I think you'll find that what you're missing now is anything like low-end punch due to the anemic little M-L sub.

As for Klipsch be sure that you listen before spending money. Klipsch are very much love'em or hate'em because many find their sound fatiguing. But they will do a much better job of filling that room due to their super high sensitivity. Due to your placement restrictions (the corner and proximity to the wall) whatever you pick should probably be front ported.

 

[TLS Guy]

You are correct on both points adding an external amp with sensitive speakers makes little sense when you are spending so little on a sub. 900 for the sub will get you a better setup than 600 and an external amp.

I personally wouldn't buy the RF series as they are overly bright for my tastes. I felt the Energy MTM speakers beat them in my listening tests.

I apologize, but what is the distance from the speakers to the couch? Also, If you can move them away from the TV more you'd get a better soundsstage. Bring them away from the wall too. Honestly I'd just upgrade your sub and make some adjustments and mount the surrounds on the side walls before I'd start changing speakers.

I see it's 5 meters away. Sensitivity is 90db at 1 meter. 105db is the dynamic goal(30 db above THX) To reach that we much use 2, 4, 8, 16 watts if your speakers is the full 5 meters. Now we need to tack on the distance. 32,64,128,256. You need 256 watts(too high for receiver and speakers) on those speakers to get the full dynamic range. If you can move the seating and/or speakers a combined 1 meter closer you would be golden for THX dynamic needs.

I agree those speakers are not going to cut it at that listening distance.

This is a situation that makes horn speakers attractive. However only the top end is hon loaded. The frequencies below the horn will be lost preferentially by this very open space with largely distant boundaries. So chances are horn + small bass/mids will really be bright.

This really needs old vintage punch efficient bass drivers coupled to wide sectoral horns via biamping and active crossover to get the balance right.

I really can't think of any modern speakers right for this application, except very expensive Altec and JBL retros.

It really demands a DIY solution. I bet I could produce decent sound in that space, but I doubt with any speakers out of a box.

 

[Swerd]

There have been a number of suggestions made in this thread, from replace your subwoofer, get two subwoofers, replace your B&W speakers, get a more powerful amplifier, to get a different house. All of these cost a lot of money and may or may not solve the problem. Before we recommend that you throw a lot more money at this problem, let’s at least discuss the various things you can try that will cost nothing, only some of your time and effort.

First of all, in your original post you said, “This is not working, I think the speakers are either too small or just don't work for my particular room.” Can you help us understand what you think is lacking? Is it that the overall sound is just too small? Or is it something else?

Because this is your first home theater, it is possible that you may have made a mistake or omission during the setup of the receiver – something that may be obvious to us but not to you. Did you read and follow the steps in the owners’ manual for setting up your Denon receiver? I know that Denon is infamous for poorly written manuals that are confusing. This also includes how you blended the subwoofer with the main speakers. This isn’t simple, and you do have a lot of options that will require some trial and error.

I remember helping a neighbor set up his HT a few years ago. He did all the basic set up and wiring, and I came over later with my SPL meter to help him balance the sound. Something sounded wrong to me, and it took a while before I asked to see just how he wired everything. It turns out that he used a pair of RCA audio interconnects between his DVD player and the receiver, just as he had always done with standard analog stereo gear in the past. He ignored using a digital connection between the DVD player and the receiver, and of course couldn’t get true 5-channel sound. I’m not saying that you’ve made that particular mistake, only that you may have skipped something important that you didn't think would matter.

Finally try rearranging the furniture. Don’t give up on this until you try it. Your wife may actually like it better once she sees what you have in mind. Your room is large and the 16 feet between the sofa and the TV and front 3 speakers may be too far. Before you move anything, first try listening closer to the speakers, about 8-10 feet away. Is that any better?

Then try putting the TV and front 3 speakers where your sofa now is and put the sofa with its back toward the kitchen. Leave plenty of room behind the sofa to allow easy passage between the hallway and the kitchen. This may solve at least two problems. It will shorten the distance between the listeners and the speakers. This will also allow you to spread the B&W 684s further apart from each other creating a wider sound. Finally, once you also relocate your subwoofer, you may find that it sounds much better than before.

 

[lsiberian]

I really can't think of any modern speakers right for this application, except very expensive Altec and JBL retros.

It really demands a DIY solution. I bet I could produce decent sound in that space, but I doubt with any speakers out of a box.

Klipsch's can certainly get the SPL, JTRs too, but neither is appealing given the living room nature of things. Not to mention neither is ideal for wall placement either.

Then try putting the TV and front 3 speakers where your sofa now is and put the sofa with its back toward the kitchen. Leave plenty of room behind the sofa to allow easy passage between the hallway and the kitchen. This may solve at least two problems. It will shorten the distance between the listeners and the speakers. This will also allow you to spread the B&W 684s further apart from each other creating a wider sound. Finally, once you also relocate your subwoofer, you may find that it sounds much better than before.

I really like this idea. I suggest you give it a go. It looks terrible to have the TV in that corner and the couch in the other.

 

[sholling]

Then try putting the TV and front 3 speakers where your sofa now is and put the sofa with its back toward the kitchen. Leave plenty of room behind the sofa to allow easy passage between the hallway and the kitchen. This may solve at least two problems. It will shorten the distance between the listeners and the speakers. This will also allow you to spread the B&W 684s further apart from each other creating a wider sound. Finally, once you also relocate your subwoofer, you may find that it sounds much better than before.

I really like this idea but I'm betting that the spouse factor is going to make it a hard sell.

 

[Riv92]

I'll try to answer to all the replies since the last post. As far as listening to Klipsch, I haved once (rf-62's II). They were in an open space with lots of noise around them, could not get a good grasp on how they sound. I live in SoCal & can't really find Klipsch dealers with those models on the floor. As for the av set up, I had some one help me on that. He double checked all my connections & changed the crossovers etc. As for moving the furniture, that's a definitive no go. If I was single that's probably the first thing I would have done but that's not the case. On the original post, I stated this speakers were not working. I was referring to the fact that they just don't fill the room at all. At this point I'll do all I can which is to replace the sub, move it next to the couch and replace the speakers with Klipsch. I realize that the sound I'll get wont be as good but I want try this before I do what my wife keeps telling me to do (take everything back and swallow the hard truth, wich may be that is not going to work). I really don't want to do that, I spent countless hours on this already so it would have been all for nothing.

 

[Riv92]

Any thoughts on the deft techs 8060's. I still think you need a sub with them but is the bipolar sound a gimmick or to they actually give you a bigger sound stage? Could they help with an open floor plan?

 

[lsiberian]

I live in SoCal & can't really find Klipsch dealers with those models on the floor.

Even Best Buy has some Klipsch speakers. To get an idea from.

 

[Riv92]

BB has the icon series. I don't know if the reference series sounds about the same as icons but they don't sound good to my ears at all.

 

[Swerd]

As for the av set up, I had some one help me on that. He double checked all my connections & changed the crossovers etc.

That's good to know.

As for moving the furniture, that's a definitive no go. If I was single that's probably the first thing I would have done but that's not the case.

Too bad. I offered that idea because sometimes it takes an outsider to suggest a furniture move. You may have lived with the present arrangement long enough to think of it as permanent. Some people are good at imagining a furniture rearrangement and others have to see it first before they can see its possibilities.

Good luck.

 

[zieglj01]

BB has the icon series. I don't know if the reference series sounds about the same as icons but they don't sound good to my ears at all.

I am not a Klipsch fan - however, the Reference series sounds better
to me than the Icon. The Reference series does pretty good with HT
and TV. I would look at Definitive, if you can give the bi-polar speakers
room to breathe. The Definitive has good midrange detail and they will
throw a better soundstage.

 

[Riv92]

When it comes to the sub, I'm getting a decent price for the Klipsch sw-310. I know that there are better subs out there like svs but am not sure if they're 300 better.