Buckle-meister

Audioholic Field Marshall
More food

Well, I've watched the video. Gee whiz that's long. :mad: A few of my thoughts:

  1. The video states that the collapse of WTC7 from fire made it only 'the third building in history to have collapsed because of a fire'. Eh? Only the third? The other two being WTC1 and WTC2? So, apart from these three buildings, no other building throughout history has ever collapsed from a fire? Uh, ok. :rolleyes:
  2. The B52 that crashed into the Empire State Building was lost in fog and travelling at a far slower speed than the planes that crashed into the WTC towers. At the time the WTC towers were designed, it was inconceivable that a plane would be deliberately flown into a tower. As such, the towers were designed against the exact scenario as actually ocurred to the Empire State Building years earlier.
  3. Regarding the fact that other skyscrapers/towers didn't collapse from fire, well, for one thing, those buildings didn't have aviation fuel burning at an extremely hot temperature which, as was previously noted, would've significantly reduced the time taken for steel members to lose most of their strength. In addition, some of those buildings may not have been steel framed, but constructed instead from reinforced concrete. In this case, because the steel reinforcement is surrounded by concrete, which is a good insulator, any structure will last longer. In fact so good an insulator is concrete (I believe it has good acoustic properties too, what with this being an audio website and all :rolleyes: ), offtimes its cast around steel columns not because they require any additional strength, but simply for fire protection. More fire protection to a building obviously increases the chance that its occupants can safely evacuate, but it also means that there's a greater chance the building can be saved and as a consequence, insurance premiums go down.
  4. As for the WTC tower columns being comprised of '47 box columns, 36"x16" thick'. Not quite. When the narrator states 'box columns', he refers to structural hollow sections (circular/square/rectangular for example). Those dimensions will be the breadth by the width (with the 36" long side more than likely aligned outwards from the structure), but the cross section will never be solid like a bar.
Overall, if the video had simply presented the 'evidence' without the narrator speaking in tones clearly intended to manipulate thinking, then perhaps it would've been a bit more believable.
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Buckle-Meister ... I personally enjoyed the many times the objective narrator said "Wait, it gets even better" ...

My 9 year old does that when telling me a story ... :rolleyes:
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Buckle-meister said:
Absolutely. No finesse whatsoever. ;)
I kept waiting for him to break into "Then the first plane went like, and the pilot was like, and the explosion was like ... "

You get the point ... :cool:
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
Thoughts for the day:

  • Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you
  • Given a choice between conspiracy and cockup, it's usually a cockup
  • 3,000 civilian deaths on US soil is (rightly) a tragedy, 30,000* on Iraqi soil and no one seems to give a sh!t

* http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
sploo said:
Thoughts for the day:

  • Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you
  • Given a choice between conspiracy and cockup, it's usually a cockup
  • 3,000 civilian deaths on US soil is (rightly) a tragedy, 30,000* on Iraqi soil and no one seems to give a sh!t

* http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Thoughts for the next day ...

The 150,000 women and girls who have not been raped and killed in the past three years in Iraqi rape rooms mean nothing to guys like you, eh ? :rolleyes:
 
shokhead

shokhead

Audioholic General
sploo said:
Thoughts for the day:

  • Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get you
  • Given a choice between conspiracy and cockup, it's usually a cockup
  • 3,000 civilian deaths on US soil is (rightly) a tragedy, 30,000* on Iraqi soil and no one seems to give a sh!t

* http://www.iraqbodycount.net/
Plenty care so your info is wrong.
 
Tsunamii

Tsunamii

Full Audioholic
Not too many people were crying when the Kurds were getting gasses either. As fa as no one caring I dont seem to follow you. There are tons of anit this and anit that movements. So who is it that is not caring enough for you? On that note other then the body count link you have on your post what have you done to make the world a better place? Hey Ill freely admit I havent done much but I dont go around saying no one cares etc..... Everyone has opinions but that dosent make them right..
 
masak_aer

masak_aer

Senior Audioholic
This is what I know about the collapse of the WTC....I will give out more info if I can still find more from my resources.
 
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sploo

Full Audioholic
craigsub said:
The 150,000 women and girls who have not been raped and killed in the past three years in Iraqi rape rooms mean nothing to guys like you, eh ? :rolleyes:
I do now wonder how many (I guess mainly men) now lie in US/UK run jails in Iraq. The Iraqis appear to have gotten rid of one monster, and, in places, had it replaced with another.

I don't know how much (if any) detail there's been about this in the US media. My suspicion would be not much.

shokhead said:
Plenty care so your info is wrong.
Doesn't seem to be stopping it from happening though...

Tsunamii said:
Not too many people were crying when the Kurds were getting gasses either.
Quite true; which is another of the great hypocracies of our governments. For years they've supported dictators (Saddam, Pinochet etc.) when it suited them.

Here's a photo of that nice Mr Rumsfeld meeting that nice Mr Hussain (around the time when the US government was selling him stuff): http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
sploo said:
I do now wonder how many (I guess mainly men) now lie in US/UK run jails in Iraq. The Iraqis appear to have gotten rid of one monster, and, in places, had it replaced with another.

I don't know how much (if any) detail there's been about this in the US media. My suspicion would be not much.
I am good friends with a liberal member of your House of Lords. This individual has made 4 trips to Iraq since 2001. Where there were these 50,000 rape/murders per year going on, today there is the start of a free society.

Notice, I said free, not perfect.

Iraq is many times safer today than it was in 2001. For example, today, a know nothing like you could stand on a street corner and call the new government monster, and live to tell about it. Five years ago, you would have disappeared. And died a slow death, with no press to report it.

This member of you House of Lords I just mentioned got to visit a rape room. The soldiers BRAGGED about how many women each had raped. They kept journals about it. This same person got to see the mass graves. It was these visits to Iraq that caused this person to change his/her views on the situation there.

Iraq has a lot of challenges ahead of it, but, for the vast majority of the good people in Iraq who are working to make their country into a working democracy, I am thankful that YOU are not the type of person they follow.

You may not like to hear this, but "men" like you would rather have 50,000 rapes/murders per year and not know about it, than have a struggling democracy with all its warts publicized. Congratulations, you are a perfect poster child for the saying "Ignorance is Bliss".
 
J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
In short, the millions of murders, rapes, robberies and imprisonments that occurred during Hussein's reign has justifiably (under the Justified War Theory) come to an end. This is a good thing. The time has now come for us to end our dominion, and help the Iraqi's help their own.
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Johnd said:
In short, the millions of murders, rapes, robberies and imprisonments that occurred during Hussein's reign has justifiably (under the Justified War Theory) come to an end. This is a good thing. The time has now come for us to end our dominion, and help the Iraqi's help their own.
Which is exactly what is occuring.

By the way ... the "Justified War Theory" is the buzz phrase which suggests that the rape rooms, murders, etc ... were something not mentioned before the war. From the State of the Union address 2 months before the war ...

Iraqi refugees tell us how forced confessions are obtained -- by torturing children while their parents are made to watch. International human rights groups have catalogued other methods used in the torture chambers of Iraq: electric shock, burning with hot irons, dripping acid on the skin, mutilation with electric drills, cutting out tongues, and rape. If this is not evil, then evil has no meaning. (Applause.)

And tonight I have a message for the brave and oppressed people of Iraq: Your enemy is not surrounding your country -- your enemy is ruling your country. (Applause.) And the day he and his regime are removed from power will be the day of your liberation. (Applause.)
 
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J

Johnd

Audioholic Samurai
craigsub said:
By the way ... the "Justified War Theory" is the buzz phrase which suggests that the rape rooms, murders, etc ... were something not mentioned before the war.
At the risk of belaboring a point:

I did not mention The Justified War Theory as a "buzz phrase". I have been using that phrase with the utmost accuracy since 1981.

And I was not attempting to "suggest" any such thing. I was simply suggesting that The Justified War Theory applies here.

So chill craigsub. It seems you may have gone into defensive overdrive, and your attacks on the minutia begin to weaken your otherwise well-stated main point...at least for me. Cheers.
 
C

craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Johnd said:
At the risk of belaboring a point:

I did not mention The Justified War Theory as a "buzz phrase". I have been using that phrase with the utmost accuracy since 1981.

And I was not attempting to "suggest" any such thing. I was simply suggesting that The Justified War Theory applies here.

So chill craigsub. It seems you may have gone into defensive overdrive, and your attacks on the minutia begin to weaken your otherwise well-stated main point...at least for me. Cheers.
"So Chill craigsub" ? ... I am sure you just happened to invent, 25 years ago, the phrase the left has been using for the past 18 months.

My comments were not directed at you, they were directed at the history revisionism occuring that says it was AFTER the 2003 war that we came up with the rape rooms and torture/murder ... etc ... as justification for the war. It appears, though, that you are pretty clear in your belief that we are now using the "Justified War Theory".

So, these next remarks are directed to you.

Whether you like him or not, President Bush was quite specific in laying out 5 different reasons for the war, the mass murder of Iraqi civilians was one of those 5. This was done in his State of the Union speech 2 months before the 2003 war. The left has been saying we started using this after the war. This was not true.

If actually posting facts from the text of the Bush speech rather than linking to far left or far right web sites is "attacks on the minutia", then please accept my apologies.

We would not want facts to get in the way of anyone's favorite agenda, now would we ?
 
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The fact that I lean heavily on one side of this argument makes this hard for me - but to be completely fair I have to say that we should limit discussion to the facts. Friendly jabs are one thing, but when you make it personal (I'm talking to everyone, but Craigsub is the latest post showing this) you simply derail the thread...

I have yet to find a forum member who will let someone else have the last word when they are personally singled out... as a result it is far better to make your points without addressing the person - just the issue/topic.

This is a great thread, so let's keep it open.
 
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craigsub

Audioholic Chief
Clint DeBoer said:
The fact that I lean heavily on one side of this argument makes this hard for me - but to be completely fair I have to say that we should limit discussion to the facts. Friendly jabs are one thing, but when you make it personal (I'm talking to everyone, but Craigsub is the latest post showing this) you simply derail the thread...

I have yet to find a forum member who will let someone else have the last word when they are personally singled out... as a result it is far better to make your points without addressing the person - just the issue/topic.

This is a great thread, so let's keep it open.
Sooooooooooo ... I get called out specifically, even though I had not done so first, and respond to that specific calling out with facts, and get admonished for it ?

Yep, makes sense ... :rolleyes:

[Edit: It's like when that guy passes you on the highway and YOU get the ticket - you're just who I noticed. Don't take it to heart. - Admin]

I am done here anyway ... have fun making up whatever you wish, guys. :D
 
B

BMO

Junior Audioholic
Theres is no question as to wether we should be involved in the Midle East or not. It's more a question to me as to how to be involved. My loyalties and responsibilities are to those who carry our banner in the name of our country. Not to those who may gain by it, lose by it, or make there own claims because of it.( politicaly)
Surely if we look the world over for " monsters to destroy" our job will never be done. As soon as you dispatch one, 2 more come up on Radar.( hell they're everywhere)
I would much rather make a statement that nobody wants to come up on our radar when we feel threatend by it. Hard stance for sure, but it is the stance that makes" would be" enemies, "not want to be" enemies.( respect out of fear)
In the early 1900's Americans were being targeted by Muslims, Gen. Pershing gathered up 10 Muslims, some pigs and bullets to get his message out . Lined up 9 Muslims, smeared them in pig blood , shot and burried the 9 with the poor pigs, left the 10th to tell the story".You ain't going to heaven burried in Pig"( his message lasted over 50 yrs.)
It was very effective!!
I am here to donate 2 pigs for our" drop a pig for Freedom campaign" If there are not enough pigs to go around, I guess a few large bombs to help spread the pig is justified.
 
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sploo

Full Audioholic
craigsub said:
Iraq is many times safer today than it was in 2001. For example, today, a know nothing like you could stand on a street corner and call the new government monster, and live to tell about it. Five years ago, you would have disappeared. And died a slow death, with no press to report it.
Certainly you'd be unlikely to be attacked by the government directly, but that's because it's a shambles. Iraqis themselves are increasingly unhappy with the current state of the country (lack of water, electricity, security).

However, as predicted by many experts (before the start of US action), Iraq appears to be sliding down a dark path. Some info to start with: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4894148.stm


craigsub said:
This member of you House of Lords I just mentioned got to visit a rape room. The soldiers BRAGGED about how many women each had raped...
Without question the Saddam regime was brutal, but that still doesn't hide the fact that our governments turned a blind eye for decades, and that some sections of our own troops now appear to be behaving in a similar manner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse

Oh, and whilst turning a blind eye, they were also selling him chemicals: http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html


craigsub said:
Iraq has a lot of challenges ahead of it, but, for the vast majority of the good people in Iraq who are working to make their country into a working democracy, I am thankful that YOU are not the type of person they follow.

You may not like to hear this, but "men" like you would rather have 50,000 rapes/murders per year and not know about it, than have a struggling democracy with all its warts publicized. Congratulations, you are a perfect poster child for the saying "Ignorance is Bliss".
This kind of language says so much. You make numerous assumptions without any knowledge of who I am, what I stand for, or my allegiances.

Given that I have previously posted a little information on Iraq's history, using a term like "Ignorance" does look a little misguided.

What you have largely done is regurgitate the US government propaganda I see so often, and used their tactic of engaging in a personal attack when faced with differing information (instead of entering into a reasoned argument based on factual data). Basically, it's the indoctrination into Americans that any disagreement isn't a counter argument, it's a sign that the person isn't a patriot/is anti-American, and therefore anything they say must be wrong. A superb, and unfortunately very effective, deception.

What saddens me is the fact that this runs so deep in US society - where day after day you are given the messages of a government that stands for "truth, freedom and justice", whilst frequently engaging in anything but.

I've lost count of the number of Americans I've met around the world, who are surprised and upset that they sometimes get a cold response. Whilst they are told at home that their government are the 'good guys', and should therefore been seen in a good light, the reality on the ground is so often different.

Sometimes, this doesn't even come from a deliberately aggressive act - I've seen US representatives (in this case soldiers) doing something deeply offensive in the Middle East, without even intending to be rude. This all stems from having been given a view of the world (from news at home) that's so narrow, and frequently misleading, that it's almost inevitable.

I appreciate I'm not going to change your view, and you'll most likely resort to name calling again, but you have the use of the Internet - do some searching for information, expand your mind beyond Fox news and you might be surprised (and somewhat disgusted at what you're not being told).

As a "starter for ten", take a look at where your tax dollars are now going (hint: the pockets of the government's friends, rebuilding the very country they've just flattened). Here's one to get you going: http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0403-10.htm
 
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