About 9/11

[vaf3]

But at least im open minded enough to look at a different viewpoint. I think I've stated that I don't believe the whole video, just some parts, a thousand times now. So if everyone can stop talking like I came out and said "OH MY GOD YOU AHVE TO WATCH THIS VIDEO ITS 100% UNDENIABLY TRUE" that would be great. And as for the put and call options, you wont even give it two seconds of research before you dismiss it. So call it bull**** all you want. You are the one who will not even consider another viewpoint. I didn't believe ANY of this stuff until I watched the video. Now I think some parts hold up but some are still wide open to speculation. So please, in future posts, do not patronize me and act like I'm trying to spread conspiracy theories here.

I was curious what other people that I don't know, that aren't my age, that aren't from here (Pittsburgh), thought about it. I never said any of this was FACT. I may have used the word FACT in a context not becoming of its denotation and that is my fault. There is much factual information in that video but there is also information labeled fact that may not be. I was curious what other people thought, and I now know that you think the entire video is BS even though you won't watch it. Thankyou, now if anyone else would like ot have some sort of constructive discussion concerning any of hte topics I'd be glad to participate.

I am trying ot look at things from both ends here while most of you won't even let the idea that the govt could have had a hand in this into your heads. Who is the fool here?

 

[vaf3]

Why let anyone know at all? Why take the risk? If you are going to deliberately destroy your own buildings, an act which would literally destroy all public trust in the government, would you tell more people just so they could make some money?

"Ya, Bob, you might want to exercise these stock options because, well, we plan on flying a couple planes straight into the world trade center. Oh, by the way, don't tell anyone OK. I know we didn't need to notify you, but we thought you might want to make a few extra bucks off of this disaster. Have a nice day."

Is that really what you think happened???

I'm not saying that they told all kinds of people. But who was it in the video that was from Cali. that got the phone call not to fly into NY tomorrow? Thats not suspicious. Nor can you prove that. So lets move on. The only people that I would expect to know are high up govt officials (who all fled NY that day unexpectedly), high up business exces and partners (who also left NY or cancelled travel arrangements to go there) in the WTC and maybe a few others. A few others such as Jeb Bush who had a business conference on the 88th floor on the 11th that got moved to another nearby building beucase there "wasn't enough room". Not a lot of people at all. Just the right ones. If you are going to say that no one knew about it govt or whoever, then explain why so many people with so much money and power either left NY or didn't go when they were supposed to on the 11th.

 

[vaf3]

The steel hasn't all been recycled. I'm about 50 yards away from a ~ 1-ton steel main support beam that is bent like a noodle.

So much for that "fact."

The idea is being dismissed because it is moronic. As for the Pentagon, the hole in the Pentagon was awfully airliner-shaped to be a missle. I won't waste my time watching the video, so I dunno about your put and call options stuff. Seems to me that would require thousands of people to be "in" on the conspiracy, which would never ever work. Any stock market anomaly would be zeroed in on by the theorists anyway. There were obviously other market forces in play in the days preceeding the attacks.

You're ranting wildly and incoherently because of some total BS spouted by some idiots who are obviously making this **** up as they go.

So youre saying that theres 1 ton of steel left? Was that support beam the one on the 78th floor or any other area crucial to the structural integrity of the building? (EDIT: Ahh I have a way with words of course it was crucial to the strucural integrity it was a support beam. Was it in an area of the building crucial to the collapse is what I meant.) Was it exposed to any of the fires in the building? Where is the REST OF THE BUILDING??? Ill give you your ton, now show me the other million that should have been inspected.

For those of you that dont know put options are a bet that a stock will drop, call options are a bet that a stock will rise, essentially. There were no other market forces at play either my friend. There were a handful of companies whos put and call option sales spiked to record highs the days preceding 9/11. All of those companies either tremendously benefitted (raytheon) or suffered a tremendous loss (the airlines) due to 9/11.

And dont waste your time watching the video, nor should you waste your time posting again. I started this thread to discuss the information presented IN THE VIDEO, if you arent going to watch it then you dont know whats there, and you wont have any pertinent input on the matter. Thank you though for dismissing the idea again as "moronic" or "foolish". Have a nice life walking down that tunnel youre stuck in.

 

[jonnythan]

Dude, calm down. You're ranting and raving like a madman with an agenda. You're going to hurt yourself if you keep these stress levels up.

 

[vaf3]

Haha maybe youre right. I just get a bit worked up when people will dismiss an idea on the shear principle that they don't think its true. Plus I did start the thread to discuss the topics in the video, everyone is basing what they are saying on things theyve heard/read elsewhere, but not the video. So far I don't think anyone has watched it yet everyone is dismissing it. And I am the fool, according to a few of you, to boot??? I just can't see how people can dismiss an idea so easily without looking at it from both ends. And I took off work today so I really don't have much else to do but rant and rave. Haha but no matter how much ranting or raving I do or how worked up I get, none of it is in bad blood, this I can promise you.

 

[BMO]

!

BMO: Along the lines of what you said I do not believe that this was a US conspiracy completely AS I STATED IN THE FIRST POST. I do however believe that there was a group of people who were aware that this was going to happen and who did benefit from it.

I whole heartedly agree with you. Governments are beast into themselves.Using every situation that comes by to gooble up more power.
Do I believe people in the right places had the knowledge of a it happening when it did, yes. Did Govt officials bring it all toghter to try and realy understand it.Maybee some, just not the right people who could have made the difference.Those who would have mobilized are the ones who are collecting the data. Probably not in positions to act apon it .You need fancy Titles? degrees and such for that.
My gripe would have more to do with not getting rid of all thoose Govt employees who had the information, but failed to act apon it.But as Governments usualy do, they told us we need" MORE MORE MORE. It's a new enemy so we need new ways to collect intellegence."( money power etc)
So how does our Govt, like the Politicaly Correct FBI counter this new Islamic threat, they hire 1000 of arab muslims to translate messages they intercept from , well ,Arab Muslims. Hmmm!Thats kind of like using Nazi's to help us catch Nazi's durring WWII I feel much safer now, and with the new Homeland Security BS, I know everything will be great.
After the OKLA City Bombing, just about every FBI and ATF agent were tuned into finding angry white guys, driving Pickups with NRA stickers posted to there bumpers. The Arab threat realy wasn't Politicaly Correct target( Arab pump huge amounts of monies into Political canadates ).
Well, even after 9/11, they still had a hard time understanding that the enemy isn't every white guy driving a white pickup with an NRA sticker
The snippers back east, at the 1st shooting, were identified by a motorist who said " 2 black guys driving a blue large sedan." Oh No! wrong color , wrong guys. We know they have to be white, driving a PU."So as time passed, they had stopped those 2 snippers 2 X, only they never suspected them because of that that they have to be the mindset of Okla City Bombing types. They, the snippers were again identified later by another motorist. Again, Police said wrong color.Of course we now know they were exactly who the 2 wittnesses said they were.
I think this was the same mentality that had taken over our Fed security apparatus durring the Clinton years. It just kept lingering on and on and on.
They were all trained to fight the angry white guy in the PU. Arabs weren't the right people!
I think, I hope, that 9/11 wasn't what they had hope for, I believe they just took the oppertunities to exspand federal power after it was done.Sadly

 

[jonnythan]

I resent the implication that I "dismissed the idea on shear [sic] principle." I dismiss the idea because not a single one of the dozen pieces of "evidence" I've heard for this "conspiracy" hold up to any scrutiny. They're all bunk science based on claims by people with "smart" tags attached to them like PhD. Having a PhD, even in an engineering field, doesn't mean you know the slightest thing about building construction or metal fatigue. Even a mechanical engineer can easily go through college, get a Master's, and get a PhD without ever learning anything more than introductory college textbook steel properties, but to most people that PhD means he's an automatic authority. Even a PhD that has been involved in skyscraper construction won't necessarily know much of anything about how the steel they use behaves at 2500+ degrees.

Use your brain and think critically. Consider and weigh the evidence and I believe you will find that the conspiracy theorists are just that.

 

[vaf3]

I resent the implication that I "dismissed the idea on shear [sic] principle." I dismiss the idea because not a single one of the dozen pieces of "evidence" I've heard for this "conspiracy" hold up to any scrutiny. They're all bunk science based on claims by people with "smart" tags attached to them like PhD. Having a PhD, even in an engineering field, doesn't mean you know the slightest thing about building construction or metal fatigue. Even a mechanical engineer can easily go through college, get a Master's, and get a PhD without ever learning anything more than introductory college textbook steel properties, but to most people that PhD means he's an automatic authority. Even a PhD that has been involved in skyscraper construction won't necessarily know much of anything about how the steel they use behaves at 2500+ degrees.

Use your brain and think critically. Consider and weigh the evidence and I believe you will find that the conspiracy theorists are just that.

Being that I am an engineer and that I am in college currently I'm going to have to disagree with you. I am an industrial engineer, or imaginary engineer as some of my engineering friends like to call it. They do so because it isnt a hardcore engineering field, yet I have to take 2 materials classes in which I learn about things such as materials, their properties, and how they hold up in whatever environment they are most widely used for. The people i referenced that I spoke with, the ones with teh PhDs, the one was in physics, and the other was in civil engineering. The civil has taken MANY a class dealing with those exact things (metal fatigue and structural properties of metal), I can even give you course numbers to reference if you would like. And scrutiny??? what scrutiny? All I've seen thus far is people telling me that its all BS backed up by the same type of information that I try backing my points with. Things other people have said and their own opinions. I haven't cited any concrete sources for my argument thus far, neither has anyone else, both arguments are wide open to criticism. Thats the way I see it.

 

[jonnythan]

Yeah, I went to RPI and took a couple of materials classes while working on an engineering degree.

You learn how to apply equations and things like that, but don't plan on learning anything that will allow you to analyze the metal fatigue obtained by burning typical building contents mixed with jet fuel for an hour+.

BTW, you're not an engineer yet. You're an engineering student.

A PhD in physics trying to make claims about structural engineering? Give me a break. The PhD in civil engineering could or could not have real world knowledge, but I am leaning quite heavily on the latter.

Anyway, my work here is done, you won't be convinced by anything, so have a good day.

 

[racquetman]

Being that I am an engineer and that I am in college currently I'm going to have to disagree with you. I am an industrial engineer, or imaginary engineer as some of my engineering friends like to call it. They do so because it isnt a hardcore engineering field, yet I have to take 2 materials classes in which I learn about things such as materials, their properties, and how they hold up in whatever environment they are most widely used for. The people i referenced that I spoke with, the ones with teh PhDs, the one was in physics, and the other was in civil engineering. The civil has taken MANY a class dealing with those exact things (metal fatigue and structural properties of metal), I can even give you course numbers to reference if you would like. And scrutiny??? what scrutiny? All I've seen thus far is people telling me that its all BS backed up by the same type of information that I try backing my points with. Things other people have said and their own opinions. I haven't cited any concrete sources for my argument thus far, neither has anyone else, both arguments are wide open to criticism. Thats the way I see it.

Ah, the ignorance of youth. This is not a personal attack (I don't want to get banned). You just need to realize that there is a huge difference between the theory you learn in school and then real life applications. I have a degree in chemistry. That doesn't make me an expert in all things chemical - although when I was in school I thought I knew it all .

The reason no one can agree on exactly why the towers came down is because all the variables are simply too complex for us humans to comprehend. We aren't an all knowing race of beings. We mess up all the time. The discovery channel loves to show ENGINEERING DISASTERS!! How many of those geniuses thought they had all the answers? I'm gonna guess all of them. I know you think everything they teach you in school is 100% accurate and holds up 100% of the time. It just doesn't happen in real life. I could give you a dozen examples from my experiences being a chemist. Theories are almost always oversimplified versions of a truth that only hold up in the simplest of conditions.

Don't worry. Time and experience will teach you this lesson.

 

[Sleestack]

Being that I am an engineer and that I am in college currently I'm going to have to disagree with you.

'

You're not an engineer. You're a student studying to be an engineer. Big difference. There is nothing in your education at this point that is going to make you more enlightened on this subject than anyone else. Get over yourself on that one.

In addition to your courses in engineering, I suggest you look at your next semester's course offerings and see if they offer "Common Sense: 101".

 

[vaf3]

Yeah, I went to RPI and took a couple of materials classes while working on an engineering degree.

You learn how to apply equations and things like that, but don't plan on learning anything that will allow you to analyze the metal fatigue obtained by burning typical building contents mixed with jet fuel for an hour+.

BTW, you're not an engineer yet. You're an engineering student.

A PhD in physics trying to make claims about structural engineering? Give me a break. The PhD in civil engineering could or could not have real world knowledge, but I am leaning quite heavily on the latter.

Anyway, my work here is done, you won't be convinced by anything, so have a good day.

I am well aware I am still a student thank you for the painful reminder. I never put my knowledge at test, it was my professors. I consulted the physics phd about how the building actually fell structural issues aside, the civil phd about what could have went on inside the building to make the entire thing collapse. Both of these professors have real world experience outside of research and various otherthings they now do for hte university. I can find out projects that they were on if you would like. And youre right I wont be convinced simply by someone telling me I'm wrong. If you know better than those two professors what are your credentials???

 

[vaf3]

'

You're not an engineer. You're a student studying to be an engineer. Big difference. There is nothing in your education at this point that is going to make you more enlightened on this subject than anyone else. Get over yourself on that one.

In addition to your courses in engineering, I suggest you look at your next semester's course offerings and see if they offer "Common Sense: 101".

Look I dont recall putting my knowledge to test, in fact I said numerous times in that same post that you pulled the quote out of that I was still in school and a student. I mentioned in earlier posts that I am currently a college student as well. I thought it was understood that I was a college student studying engineering. I will be sure to include student from now on when referencing my schooling.

EDIT: And regardless of my schooling or any degree there are many people on this forum that have similar degrees and that are much more intelligent and experienced than I. If i didn't state that I had previous knowledge of physics and whatever the hell else I said all that would have happened was me getting flamed about my lack of knowledge on the subject. I was just giving some background on my education in a few areas. If you knew me you would know that I am by no means one who is full of himself, nor do I talk down on others for no reason. The problem here is that by me asserting my opinion, you all have taken it as me saying "I'm right", you use your information to refute my opinion, I use mine to refute yours. I'm not taking shots at anyone, I'm not claiming to be better than anyone, I'm stating my opinion along with some background information.

I have plenty of common sense as well, enough to look at both sides of an argument. I am not saying that the video is true, I don't believe parts, but I also dont believe that it was strictly the fire that brought the building down. If you watched the video there is a part where a firefighter radios FROM THE 78TH floor of the south tower before it collapses saying that the fires have been extinguished. Part of the reason for my skepticism. Now can I prove that its the firefighter on that actual day, no. See thats me looking at both ends of the argument. I can't prove a lot fo the stuff in the video that you guys are saying isnt true. But you cant prove the video false either can yoU?

 

[jds]

I have watched the video and while i do not believe everything on it, there are so loose ends. There appears to be too much coincidence in these events. I have done other research on this topic as well, so my information is based not just on this video. There are some things i would like explained from the people who claim "this is completely impossible and our government would never do this". Building 7? anyone mention building 7 yet? the governments official story for the towers is that intense heat from the jet fuel cause by planes crashing into them caused them to collapse. well then how did 7 collapse? no plane struck 7 and its suprisingly farther away than other buildings that were undamaged. Official story from the governement? exernal debris caused internal fires collapsing the bulding. Making this only the 3rd building in history to collapse from fire. Also has anyone seen the interview with Silverstein ( the guy who conveniently owned the towers and building 7) where he admits to "pulling" building 7? Im no bomb expert, but if a building is on fire, within a couple hours its possible to completely wire up a building perfectly to make it collapse like that?

If a commercial plane hit the pentagon, all the government would have to do is show the tapes from surrounding businesses to prove it. but they dont. I wonder why? Instead they release a 5 framed video that is obviously doctored and doesnt even show an airplane. Are planes made with cordite? why did some pentagon employees report the smell of cordite?

Too many coincidences, too many unanswered questions. And to the people that say the government didnt do anything on 9/11 and just knew about it ahead of time.That's enough guilt for me. Its like being an accessory before the act.

 

[jds]

please actually watch the video. I know you have "heard" about these theories before. But im sure your havent seen all this footage.

thank you

 

[vaf3]

Ah, the ignorance of youth. This is not a personal attack (I don't want to get banned). You just need to realize that there is a huge difference between the theory you learn in school and then real life applications. I have a degree in chemistry. That doesn't make me an expert in all things chemical - although when I was in school I thought I knew it all .

The reason no one can agree on exactly why the towers came down is because all the variables are simply too complex for us humans to comprehend. We aren't an all knowing race of beings. We mess up all the time. The discovery channel loves to show ENGINEERING DISASTERS!! How many of those geniuses thought they had all the answers? I'm gonna guess all of them. I know you think everything they teach you in school is 100% accurate and holds up 100% of the time. It just doesn't happen in real life. I could give you a dozen examples from my experiences being a chemist. Theories are almost always oversimplified versions of a truth that only hold up in the simplest of conditions.

Don't worry. Time and experience will teach you this lesson.

Well put, however I still feel that there are other issues presented in the video that have absolutely nothing to do with engineering that make me skeptical, the put and call options, the people cancelling travel plans, the saudis gold (totaling 1.62 billion) being moved from under the towers for no apparent reason... Things such as these, hence why i suggested people watch the video. I heard plenty of information refuting the conspiracy theories as well but there is more to it than that, there is much more information presented in the video. Once again this thread was supposed to be BASED ON THE VIDEO, not based on what people have previously seen or heard.

 

[jds]

So let me get this straight...did they identify the type of steel? I'm going to say "no" and they just got some "expert" to say it melts at 3000 degrees Farenheit. NEWSFLASH! The melting point of the average steel alloy is roughly 2500 degrees F. That means, for all intensive purposes, it turns to a liquid state. Anyone who works with metals can tell you that it will become pliable at a lower temperature (i.e. IT WILL DEFORM AND COLLAPSE!).

Now, in all fairness I did not view this video and cannot refute everything (or anything for that matter) that they say. But I think its origins follow along the same lines as the crackpots who refuse to believe we put a man on the moon...or in space.

IN the video it says that Kevin Ryan from Underwriters Labs. (the company the certified the steel in the towers) writes a letter to Frank Gail of the NIST
describing how the steel was certified to ASTM E119.

While im not familiar with steel standards, these guys certainly have some expertise in their field.

 

[shokhead]

Well put, however I still feel that there are other issues presented in the video that have absolutely nothing to do with engineering that make me skeptical, the put and call options, the people cancelling travel plans, the saudis gold (totaling 1.62 billion) being moved from under the towers for no apparent reason... Things such as these, hence why i suggested people watch the video. I heard plenty of information refuting the conspiracy theories as well but there is more to it than that, there is much more information presented in the video. Once again this thread was supposed to be BASED ON THE VIDEO, not based on what people have previously seen or heard.

You do belive that a plane crashed into the towers and most died,right? And that they didnt need to die,right?

 

[vaf3]

You do belive that a plane crashed into the towers and most died,right? And that they didnt need to die,right?

I most certainly agree that a plane crashed into the towers and I absolutely agree that people died that shouldn't have and did not have to.

 

[silversurfer]

FWIW, my Father is an accomplished structural engineer, retired now for about 15 years. He was the lead/managing engineer on many well recognized buildings/structures.

I have not talked to him lately about 9/11, but back then, he was upset, could not understand why the structures failed, and was not happy with the explanations.

It usually doesn't come up in conversation, but I will see if anything has changed with him.