Abortion Access In Texas

GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
Since the Steam Vent has been rather quiet lately, filled with completely uncontroversial topics ;), I thought I'd stir the pot a little. Regardless of ones opinion on abortion, I'm at a loss to understand how the new law in Texas could be considered even remotely constitutional. How can somebody be able to file a lawsuit against another person(s) for possible financial gain when they have suffered no personal injury or financial loss?
Here's the new reality under Texas's abortion law — and how it could affect the rest of the U.S. | CBC News

While I understand that there have been lawsuits in the past where direct harm has not been suffered, but where potential harm may be suffered, such as suing government for failure to enforce environmental laws, I don't see any parallel when a complete stranger has an abortion.

While it may not be his specialty, perhaps @Mr._Clark would chime in with his opinion.
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
Since the Steam Vent has been rather quiet lately, filled with completely uncontroversial topics ;), I thought I'd stir the pot a little. Regardless of ones opinion on abortion, I'm at a loss to understand how the new law in Texas could be considered even remotely constitutional. How can somebody be able to file a lawsuit against another person(s) for possible financial gain when they have suffered no personal injury or financial loss?
Here's the new reality under Texas's abortion law — and how it could affect the rest of the U.S. | CBC News

While I understand that there have been lawsuits in the past where direct harm has not been suffered, but where potential harm may be suffered, such as suing government for failure to enforce environmental laws, I don't see any parallel when a complete stranger has an abortion.

While it may not be his specialty, perhaps @Mr._Clark would chime in with his opinion.
But ultimately, he said, he agrees: There should be no exemptions; abortion should be forbidden, even in cases of rape or incest.

There's the extremism coming through.:(
 
D

Dude#1279435

Audioholic Spartan
If say a pro-life woman were raped and wanted to keep the baby there's nothing wrong with that. But because she does doesn't mean the other victims should have to go through the duration of a pregnancy. And the humiliation they might feel. Consensual vs raped are two different things. Obviously there are other factors like how many months pregnant and so forth. Ben Carson did this same thing back in 2016 when he was running. A quick search and by gosh (!) the religious conservative sources omitted this very point. It says to me they want 100% control over the policy. But it also says to me the contempt they have for life while simultaneously claiming to love life.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
For now, the Federal court in TX put an injunction on the law effective immediately. So, now abortions can continue even while this is appealed.

ps. I think I have this right but it is not home building or audio. ;) :D
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Since the Steam Vent has been rather quiet lately, filled with completely uncontroversial topics ;), I thought I'd stir the pot a little. Regardless of ones opinion on abortion, I'm at a loss to understand how the new law in Texas could be considered even remotely constitutional. How can somebody be able to file a lawsuit against another person(s) for possible financial gain when they have suffered no personal injury or financial loss?
Here's the new reality under Texas's abortion law — and how it could affect the rest of the U.S. | CBC News

While I understand that there have been lawsuits in the past where direct harm has not been suffered, but where potential harm may be suffered, such as suing government for failure to enforce environmental laws, I don't see any parallel when a complete stranger has an abortion.

While it may not be his specialty, perhaps @Mr._Clark would chime in with his opinion.
I haven't followed the Texas law, so I'm not sure what the primary issues are. As a general matter, there are plenty of Qui Tam causes of action that allow an individual to collect damages even if the person did not suffer direct damages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qui_tam). Having said that, I'm not sure the Texas law actually creates a Qui Tam cause of action.

The constitutionality of abortion laws typically boil down to whether or not the law violates substantive due process rights. People have of course been arguing about this for many years. I don't really expect any minds to change on this issue.

You didn't ask, but I'll throw this out anyway. I do think abortion rights are the elephant in the room with regards to the antivax "movement" (for lack of a better term). The antivaxxers primarily base their arguments on substantive due process rights (see, e.g. Jacobson v Massachusetts). One can distinguish vaccine mandates and abortion restrictions on various basis, but it would nevertheless be somewhat inconsistent for the court to strike down vaccine mandates based on the notion that substantive due process rights are fundamental/strong while also upholding state anti abortion laws on the basis that those particular due process rights are weak.

Where I'm going with this is that I don't think the US supreme court is anxious to strike down a law mandating vaccines because this would imply that substantive due process right are strong, which implies that abortion rights are also strong.

That's just my impression, I have no inside contacts at the supreme court.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
I haven't followed the Texas law, so I'm not sure what the primary issues are. As a general matter, there are plenty of Qui Tam causes of action that allow an individual to collect damages even if the person did not suffer direct damages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qui_tam). Having said that, I'm not sure the Texas law actually creates a Qui Tam cause of action.

The constitutionality of abortion laws typically boil down to whether or not the law violates substantive due process rights. People have of course been arguing about this for many years. I don't really expect any minds to change on this issue.

You didn't ask, but I'll throw this out anyway. I do think abortion rights are the elephant in the room with regards to the antivax "movement" (for lack of a better term). The antivaxxers primarily base their arguments on substantive due process rights (see, e.g. Jacobson v Massachusetts). One can distinguish vaccine mandates and abortion restrictions on various basis, but it would nevertheless be somewhat inconsistent for the court to strike down vaccine mandates based on the notion that substantive due process rights are fundamental/strong while also upholding state anti abortion laws on the basis that those particular due process rights are weak.

Where I'm going with this is that I don't think the US supreme court is anxious to strike down a law mandating vaccines because this would imply that substantive due process right are strong, which implies that abortion rights are also strong.

That's just my impression, I have no inside contacts at the supreme court.
Thanks for the edumacation. I had never heard of this "Qui Tam" before. It looks like it's simply a whistleblower law. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that someone can "blow the whistle" on someone else for doing something that is constitutional, i.e. not against the law.

I understand that this new Texas law was enacted to get around the constitution - they couldn't ban abortions, so they created a law allowing a person to sue someone else for getting one or aiding someone getting one. No matter where anyone stands on this - either anti-abortion or pro-choice - I can't see how this can possibly stand.
 
GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
But ultimately, he said, he agrees: There should be no exemptions; abortion should be forbidden, even in cases of rape or incest.

There's the extremism coming through.:(
Texas Gov. Greg Abbott Promises To 'Eliminate All Rapists' | HuffPost Latest News

“Rape is a crime,” he said. “And Texas will work tirelessly to make sure we eliminate all rapists from the streets of Texas by aggressively going out and arresting them and prosecuting them and getting them off the streets.”
"I'm gonna make rape even illegaller! That'll learn 'em!"*

*Not a real quote.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Since the Steam Vent has been rather quiet lately, filled with completely uncontroversial topics ;), I thought I'd stir the pot a little. Regardless of ones opinion on abortion, I'm at a loss to understand how the new law in Texas could be considered even remotely constitutional. How can somebody be able to file a lawsuit against another person(s) for possible financial gain when they have suffered no personal injury or financial loss?
Here's the new reality under Texas's abortion law — and how it could affect the rest of the U.S. | CBC News

While I understand that there have been lawsuits in the past where direct harm has not been suffered, but where potential harm may be suffered, such as suing government for failure to enforce environmental laws, I don't see any parallel when a complete stranger has an abortion.

While it may not be his specialty, perhaps @Mr._Clark would chime in with his opinion.
How can they do this? Lawyers. They write legislation (many members of Congress are lawyers) in language that most people find incomprehensible, which means it requires lawyers to decode for everyone else. They make it necessary to hire lawyers for contracts, leases, product safety disclaimers...every aspect of our lives. Some lawyers may turn the case down because they don't think they'll make any money but someone, somewhere, another lawyer senses this and comes scurrying out of the leaf litter to sniff around for a few crumbs.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Where I'm going with this is that I don't think the US supreme court is anxious to strike down a law mandating vaccines because this would imply that substantive due process right are strong, which implies that abortion rights are also strong.

That's just my impression, I have no inside contacts at the supreme court.
Is a mandate actually a 'law' in the sense that it compels people to do or forbid something?
 
Kvn_Walker

Kvn_Walker

Audioholic Field Marshall
When men write laws telling women how they're supposed to live... :rolleyes:

Like somebody else said, if men could get pregnant, there'd be abortion clinics on every corner beside 7-11.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
Is a mandate actually a 'law' in the sense that it compels people to do or forbid something?
It's true that mandates could come in many forms. I was referring to constitutional challenges to government action such as the state law mandate at issue in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. States could of course (in theory) cook up any law they want, but these types of mandates tend to be "blanket" mandates that apply to everyone.

>>>Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.<<<


Employer mandates are significantly different because the mandates typically say the employee has choice: "get vaccinated or find a job elsewhere." In theory it could implicate constitutional issues if the employer is the government or government funded, but these cases are largely just employment law issues. The recent hospital case in Texas is an example of this:

>>>There are two main exemptions to such an order. One is covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act. If an employee has a disability that would prevent or interfere with them getting the vaccine, they cannot be required to take the shot. The same is true for someone with a firmly held religious belief.<<<


That's not to say that every employer mandate will hold up in court. But, if one is struck down, the basis would most likely be that the employer mandate violated a law passed by a state government or the federal government (e.g. the ADA).
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
When men write laws telling women how they're supposed to live... :rolleyes:

Like somebody else said, if men could get pregnant, there'd be abortion clinics on every corner beside 7-11.
In theory, men can get pregnant, depending on one's definition of "men."

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Spartan
The Texas abortion law was explicitly created in such a way as to avoid federal judicial review of a law that many (most?) thinks is unconstitutional, and the right-wing majority in the US Supreme Court went along with that.

The Supreme Court decision is disturbing and those anti-abortionist that hails the decision is also very short-sighted, for now there is open season on making similar laws on other issues as well. Gun-ownership comes to mind.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
It's true that mandates could come in many forms. I was referring to constitutional challenges to government action such as the state law mandate at issue in Jacobson v. Massachusetts. States could of course (in theory) cook up any law they want, but these types of mandates tend to be "blanket" mandates that apply to everyone.

>>>Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court upheld the authority of states to enforce compulsory vaccination laws. The Court's decision articulated the view that individual liberty is not absolute and is subject to the police power of the state.<<<


Employer mandates are significantly different because the mandates typically say the employee has choice: "get vaccinated or find a job elsewhere." In theory it could implicate constitutional issues if the employer is the government or government funded, but these cases are largely just employment law issues. The recent hospital case in Texas is an example of this:

>>>There are two main exemptions to such an order. One is covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act. If an employee has a disability that would prevent or interfere with them getting the vaccine, they cannot be required to take the shot. The same is true for someone with a firmly held religious belief.<<<


That's not to say that every employer mandate will hold up in court. But, if one is struck down, the basis would most likely be that the employer mandate violated a law passed by a state government or the federal government (e.g. the ADA).
I guess my question could be boiled down to: "What has more teeth, a law or a mandate?". If a mandate can be overturned relatively easily, why go through the pain of reversal and the lawsuits that would naturally follow?
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
What law(s) work in reverse?
I was referring to men telling women how to live vs women telling men how to live and how so many men really need someone to tell them what to do because they'll just eff up if left on their own. All someone needs to to is watch the news to see that.
 
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