A/V Receiver Impedance Selector Switch

[paveldeg]

Nothing has changed is latest gen amp sections of D&M AVRs in terms oh how the impedance switch works. I also have direct access to the head of engineering Denon Japan and he has confirmed my findings. Be careful what you read on forums from end users that don't have the knowledge on amplifier design.

OK, thanks. I'm just shocked that "head of engineering Denon Japan" basically confirmed that they screwed up their design, instead of keeping power same across all impedances they reduced output power for 4 ohm loads. So much for Japan engineering I guess, hope they proud of it.

 

[gene]

OK, thanks. I'm just shocked that "head of engineering Denon Japan" basically confirmed that they screwed up their design, instead of keeping power same across all impedances they reduced output power for 4 ohm loads. So much for Japan engineering I guess, hope they proud of it.

The switch is there for one reason only, UL certification for 4 ohms with all channels driven. All Japanese AV receivers function similarly. One Yamaha i measured in the past did deliver same power in 4 ohms in low setting as 8 ohms in high setting but again it's limiting your power. Yamaha already has a lot of nannies built in to ensure the amp doesn't fail without having to step down the voltage via the switch.

 

[everettT]

So, any actual technical explanation from you including schematics, besides insulting everybody who is so "mistaken" from your point of view?
I do trust Gene's measurement, but they are mostly for Yamahas, and speaking from common sense perspective - cutting output power for 4 ohm loads does not make much technical sense, the power should be same as for 8 ohms to avoid overheating, so voltage can be limited, but since amperage is higher for 4 ohms loads output power should stay same.
If it's not the case with Yamahas it's just means poor design, nothing else, it's unlikely to be same for all other AVRs.

This horse has been beaten so much I'm shocked manufacturers still offer it. If you wanna limit your amplifier section, go for it, most just purchase an appropriate product.

 

[Trebdp83]

 

[PENG]

"When using 4 ohm speakers you draw twice the current from the amp. Voltage times ampere are watt and at 4 ohm you will only need half the voltage to produce the same watt as compared to double the voltage using 8 ohm speakers. When the voltage is dropped from the power supply when selecting a 4 ohm setting it has to drop to half voltage to produce the same watt from a 4 ohm speaker as in a 8 ohm setting using 8 ohm speakers, but it is only reduced some 35% so it will be more power available in the 4 ohm setting when using 4 ohm speakers. When using 6 ohm speakers in the 4 ohm setting it will produce the same watt as in 8 ohm setting and 8 ohm speakers.

That does not sound logical! If you reduce the voltage by 35%, you will get less current and therefore less "power" whether the load impedance is 8 ohms or 4 ohms.

So in reality the only important thing that change with the speaker impedance setting are how the protection circuit operates

."

That could be the case, but in the case of your AVR-X3700H, it is obvious that impedance setting of 4 ohms will limit current, and power naturally, again regardless of 8 or 4 ohms.

Denon x3700H Impedance Setting - Different Impedance...

www.avsforum.com

Those guys seemed to know their math, but also seemed like they are a little confused, making it hard to follow their thoughts.

So essentially in Denons switching to 4 ohm stops protection triggering too early, and allows thus producing more power for 4 ohm speakers.

Again, that could be possible in theory, but bench tests after bench tests show that it is not the case, so setting to 4 ohms will limit "power" severely, but if you don't need that much power then of course you will be fine, or more than fine, using the low setting.

If you are experiencing performance issues in your specific use case, then I would suggest you investigate further, as there could be other reasons. To be clear, if the poorer performance you mentioned, such as weaker bass, was due to protection triggering too early, then you will know because Denon's protection scheme will trip the unit, not just limiting the current and continue to operate that way. Some recent Onkyo models might (not 100% sure) in fact do what you described but certainly not Denon's X3700H.

 

[TLS Guy]

The switch is there for one reason only, UL certification for 4 ohms with all channels driven. All Japanese AV receivers function similarly. One Yamaha i measured in the past did deliver same power in 4 ohms in low setting as 8 ohms in high setting but again it's limiting your power. Yamaha already has a lot of nannies built in to ensure the amp doesn't fail without having to step down the voltage via the switch.

Gene, you need one more line on the questionnaire: - I don't have an impedance selector switch and don't need one.

This whole issue is just testimony to the idiocy of the multichannel receiver concept. Not surprising that Denon/Marantz may be on the "chopping block".

 

[PENG]

This horse has been beaten so much I'm shocked manufacturers still offer it. If you wanna limit your amplifier section, go for it, most just purchase an appropriate product.

He has a point (you are being fair, that the horse isn't completely dead as it was still sort of still moving a little while the beating continues), just that it is not the case with his X3700H. ASR's recent test on an Onkyo (iirc only, could have been a Pioneer clone) might do something like how described about the "protection" though there has not been enough info to really confirm that, but it could have been something similar though not the same.

 

[Trebdp83]

The Onkyo Protect mode does put it into a limp mode that can only be cleared using the web setup. Here is something I posted in the RZ70 thread:

I usually leave my Onkyo in 4ohm mode. I have five 4ohm speakers. Leaving it on “6 ohm or above” mode heats things up if going up to 75dB or higher and is also the point in which the infamous Onkyo relay click can be heard. Watch an action movie at loud volume for a couple of hours and the receiver will heat up an additional 10 degrees Celsius compared to 4ohm mode.

The 4ohm setting is a power limiter for the sake of limiting heat production. I’ve not noticed a decline in audio performance using 4ohm mode in my medium sized room and my modest speakers aren’t going to blow the doors off of the joint in “6 ohm or above” mode before I blow them up trying to get them to do so anyway. Though, winter is coming and I could use the extra heat. Say, that horse is getting rather pungent, isn’t it?

 

[everettT]

He has a point (you are being fair, that the horse isn't completely dead as it was still sort of still moving a little while the beating continues), just that it is not the case with his X3700H. ASR's recent test on an Onkyo (iirc only, could have been a Pioneer clone) might do something like how described about the "protection" though there has not been enough info to really confirm that, but it could have been something similar though not the same.

Yeah, his test came to mind when I replied. I guess there is a theoretical curve when addressing this, I've personally never had to worry about it since I've used separate power amps to power my front 3 with AVRs since 99, even with strong amp sections.

The Voxx products seemed to have addressed to some degree with Gene's latest review, but we'll see.

 

[gene]

The Onkyo Protect mode does put it into a limp mode that can only be cleared using the web setup. Here is something I posted in the RZ70 thread:

View attachment 70906

I usually leave my Onkyo in 4ohm mode. I have five 4ohm speakers. Leaving it on “6 ohm or above” mode heats things up if going up to 75dB or higher and is also the point in which the infamous Onkyo relay click can be heard. Watch an action movie at loud volume for a couple of hours and the receiver will heat up an additional 10 degrees Celsius compared to 4ohm mode.

The 4ohm setting is a power limiter for the sake of limiting heat production. I’ve not noticed a decline in audio performance using 4ohm mode in my medium sized room and my modest speakers aren’t going to blow the doors off of the joint in “6 ohm or above” mode before I blow them up trying to get them to do so anyway. Though, winter is coming and I could use the extra heat. Say, that horse is getting rather pungent, isn’t it?

View attachment 70907

Using the 4-ohm setting, especially on an Onkyo, severely limits your amplifier power even with just 1CH driven. If you're spending big money on an RZ50 or 70 and doing that, you're better off just buying a much cheaper Onkyo unless you need the added features. There's nothing wrong with the receiver getting warmer as long as you have good ventilation. The RZ70 for example, is very stable at driving 4 ohms IF you keep it in the 8 ohm or high setting. Putting it in 4 ohms is a bad idea.

 

[Trebdp83]

Yeah, I have a cheaper Onkyo and very cheap speakers. I wouldn’t do such a thing in a large dedicated theater using an RZ70 and better speakers.

 

[TLS Guy]

The Onkyo Protect mode does put it into a limp mode that can only be cleared using the web setup. Here is something I posted in the RZ70 thread:

View attachment 70906

I usually leave my Onkyo in 4ohm mode. I have five 4ohm speakers. Leaving it on “6 ohm or above” mode heats things up if going up to 75dB or higher and is also the point in which the infamous Onkyo relay click can be heard. Watch an action movie at loud volume for a couple of hours and the receiver will heat up an additional 10 degrees Celsius compared to 4ohm mode.

The 4ohm setting is a power limiter for the sake of limiting heat production. I’ve not noticed a decline in audio performance using 4ohm mode in my medium sized room and my modest speakers aren’t going to blow the doors off of the joint in “6 ohm or above” mode before I blow them up trying to get them to do so anyway. Though, winter is coming and I could use the extra heat. Say, that horse is getting rather pungent, isn’t it?

View attachment 70907

Essentially that unit is only useable as a two channel unit. Basically the power supply can safely 180 watts split between two channels. Essentially the max power from the power supply without a melt down is 180 watts, so it is 60 watts per channel for the front three and less if there are four other speakers added to the front three.
So this is comparable performance to a top end analog receiver of years gone by. So essentially it is highly likely to be over driven by many purchasers, blow up and create a negative experience and lead to disenchantment with the whole home AV scene.

 

[Trebdp83]

No system is indestructible used incorrectly. Many run into trouble putting together Frankenstein systems trying to power various garage sale speakers of varying impedance with a modest receiver.

I know what I’ve got to work with here. I also know that I’ll lose my mind and throw the receiver out of a window if I keep hearing the clicking when set to “6 ohms or above” mode. So it is what it is. Maybe I’ll get a Denon and two more subs for Christmas and play with Directional mode. The X3800H is on sale. Though, I hate that front display and HEOS.

 

[PENG]

Essentially that unit is only useable as a two channel unit. Basically the power supply can safely 180 watts split between two channels. Essentially the max power from the power supply without a melt down is 180 watts, so it is 60 watts per channel for the front three and less if there are four other speakers added to the front three.
So this is comparable performance to a top end analog receiver of years gone by. So essentially it is highly likely to be over driven by many purchasers, blow up and create a negative experience and lead to disenchantment with the whole home AV scene.

If you are referring to the RZ50, may be.., if the RZ70 then no you would be very wrong. The RZ70's power supply is clearly a different animal, please read Gene's review complete with detailed measurements before making those statements.

 

[gene]

Essentially that unit is only useable as a two channel unit. Basically the power supply can safely 180 watts split between two channels. Essentially the max power from the power supply without a melt down is 180 watts, so it is 60 watts per channel for the front three and less if there are four other speakers added to the front three.
So this is comparable performance to a top end analog receiver of years gone by. So essentially it is highly likely to be over driven by many purchasers, blow up and create a negative experience and lead to disenchantment with the whole home AV scene.

Most of the top tier AVRs I've measured from the major brands can easily do 100wpc x 7 ch driven. Nothing wrong with that especially given everything else they do on top of that.