A ? regarding amplifier/speaker

[AVRat]

Just curious mys, what gear do you have?

 

[Resident Loser]

My goodness...

"Tone Controls and Equilizers are not the same thing".

http://www.answers.com/topic/tone-control-circuits

Here's a nice quote from there.

"More elaborate tone control circuits can elevate or attenuate the middle range of frequencies too. Really elaborate tone controls provide elevation or attenuation in 1/3 octave bands spanning from approximately 30 Hz to 18 kHz. These units are called graphic equalizers because their controls are in the form of sliders that are arranged so as to graphically display the amount of boost or cut being applied at any frequency of interest."

...quoting from the web, that bastion of uncompromised, accurate and factual authority...

First off pup, an equalizer is used after the loudspeaker/listening-room synergy has be optimized by mechanical means...once these are exhausted, careful measured analysis using a calibrated pink-noise source and SPL meter will provide a frequency response curve identifying trouble spots such as standing waves. An inverse curve is applied via graphic, parametric or digital equalization to smooth out the overall FR. Using RTAs is a more current (and more expensive) SOTA method. Whatever the method, it is a set it and forget it affair...of course that is if you listen at the same reference level at all times, deviate too far north or south of that dB level and all bets are off, since human hearing has those little foibles mentioned earlier...Additionally EQs should not be used as gain-stage devices...that's where folks get into trouble...

Tone controls are the answer to your problem since, as the well-documented and widely accepted loudness compesation research from the 1930s indicates, as SPLs decrease the need for bass boost increases...Since the web is your omniscient guide, go Google the aforementioned Fletcher- Munson, Robinson and Dadson or ISO 226:2003...TCs also come in handy for making less than stellar program material (a nice bit of audiophool jargon which should make you all warm and cozy) at least listenable...referring to them as equalizers is a misnomer as they usually apply to far too wide a Q which tends to affect adjacent frequencies ultimately "equalizing" nothing...they should not be used to take up the slack of poorly performing speaker systems.

With a properly EQd system, played at the measured reference level and with pristine software, TCs aren't needed and should be set to 0 or otherwise defeated...

So yes Virginia, equalizers aren't tone controls and vice-versa...

jimHJJ(...you can put your boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits...)

 

[allsop4now]

No, most speaker's sensitivity is linear. When you decrease volume, all frequencies volume is affected, period.
What you seem to not accept is the human hearing at lower sensitivity alters how loud you hear the low frequency and the high frequency sounds. You need it louder for both lows and highs compared the the mid section of the audio band where your hearing is the most sensitive.
http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

Here is another article about loudness:

http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=loudnesscontrol_ts

 

[mys_iii]

Here is another article about loudness:

http://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=loudnesscontrol_ts

Oh no. Not another 'web' article. It must be garbage.

Just kidding. Thanks for the link. That's a good article. The filtering going on in my ears completely escaped my genius mind.

 

[mys_iii]

Just curious mys, what gear do you have?

My gear is pretty modest. I have the old Acurus pre-amp and amps. My CD player is a California Audio Labs.

 

[markw]

Didn't you get the memo?

The filtering going on in my ears completely escaped my genius mind.

It took this long for you to figure this out? Well, duh! Obviously, you didn't even bother to read up on Fletcher-Munson at all. That what this whole thread was about. That, and ways to compensate for it.

 

[highfihoney]

does not believe in equilizers. To effectively change different frequencies in music, the equilizer has to be very good in order to correctly filter or amplify the different frequencies. Most equilizers introduce distortion which defeats the whole purpose of having good sources and amplifiers for low distortion sounds production. Just my opinion.

I believe one reason why most speakers have the characteristic I described is that the tweeter tends to be more sensitive and easier to drive than the mi-range and bass drivers which means the tweeter dominates the sound spectrum. Hence the "thin" sound at low volume levels.

If you plan on taking "the pure signal path"approach to your audio system your in for a long & extremely expensive ride on the audiophile express.What good is an ultra pure signal if the sound from your speakers isnt what your looking for?

The signal is pure but it sounds like crap

Trying to keep the signal path as pure as possible is not the most sensible approach to putting together a system,if you like everything about the system you have now & the only area that you feel needs changing is the bass at lower listening levels you should be looking at switching your current preamp out for a preamp that has tone controls & a loudness contour control or a good eq.

Buying a bigger more powerfull amplifier would make sense if you were experiencing a lack of bass at high listening levels because the amp couldnt deliever the needed wattage to the woofers but this is not the case you have a lack of base at low listening levels & getting a bigger amp will not resolve this.

Even a monster krell amp that runs 100% in class a mode will not correct your lack of low level bass response.

 

[highfihoney]

So yes Virginia, equalizers aren't tone controls and vice-versa...
(...you can put your boots in the oven, but that don't make 'em biscuits...)

Thats some pretty good stuff

 

[mys_iii]

If you plan on taking "the pure signal path"approach to your audio system your in for a long & extremely expensive ride on the audiophile express.What good is an ultra pure signal if the sound from your speakers isnt what your looking for?

The signal is pure but it sounds like crap

Trying to keep the signal path as pure as possible is not the most sensible approach to putting together a system,if you like everything about the system you have now & the only area that you feel needs changing is the bass at lower listening levels you should be looking at switching your current preamp out for a preamp that has tone controls & a loudness contour control or a good eq.

Buying a bigger more powerfull amplifier would make sense if you were experiencing a lack of bass at high listening levels because the amp couldnt deliever the needed wattage to the woofers but this is not the case you have a lack of base at low listening levels & getting a bigger amp will not resolve this.

Even a monster krell amp that runs 100% in class a mode will not correct your lack of low level bass response.

Thanks for the info. Now that you mentioned it, I may be lacking some of the bass even at high volumes. My speakers do go down low but not that low. When I listen even at high volumes, the base is lacking some authority I would say. I'm not sure if my use of a power conditioner is robbing my amp of some current. That would affect the bass output as you say. That's why I was considering perhaps upgrading my amplifier. Would 150W be enough to drive most speakers?

 

[markw]

didn't you say those speakers have a 91 db sensitivity rating?

Thanks for the info. Now that you mentioned it, I may be lacking some of the bass even at high volumes. My speakers do go down low but not that low. When I listen even at high volumes, the base is lacking some authority I would say. I'm not sure if my use of a power conditioner is robbing my amp of some current. That would affect the bass output as you say. That's why I was considering perhaps upgrading my amplifier. Would 150W be enough to drive most speakers?

Just curious...

lessee... you've got incredibly efficient speakers and, as you say, they sound "thin" at low levels and lack bass at high levels. So, you're thinking about getting a more powerful amp? What school did you attend?

big hint... you're getting colder.

bigger hint... It doesn't take a whole lotta watts to get good sound out of speakers with a 91 db sensitivity.

 

[mys_iii]

Just curious...

lessee... you've got incredibly efficient speakers and, as you say, they sound "thin" at low levels and lack bass at high levels. So, you're thinking about getting a more powerful amp? What school did you attend?

big hint... you're getting colder.

bigger hint... It doesn't take a whole lotta watts to get good sound out of speakers with a 91 db sensitivity.

OK. OK. You got me. I was just trying to talk my way into upgrading my amp.

The speakers are Triangle Antals.

 

[no. 5]

bigger hint... It doesn't take a whole lotta watts to get good sound out of speakers with a 91 db sensitivity.

true, it may not take a lot of watts, but if the speakers have say, a 52 degree capacitive phase angle with a 3 ohm dip in impedance, it would take a very capable amplifer to do the job.

 

[markw]

Fair enough.

OK. OK. You got me. I was just trying to talk my way into upgrading my amp.

Any excusre is as good as another, at least if it passes wifey's muster. But, all things considered, 150 solid Acrus watts is quite a lot.

The speakers are Triangle Antals.

Nice speakers, but you can only get so much bass out of a 6 1/2" driver in a thin tower, no mater how glowing a review Soundstage gives them.

Remember "astounding bass" is a fairly relative concept and perhaps, just perhaps, your concept differs from the reviewers. That does happen...

 

[mtrycrafts]

true, it may not take a lot of watts, but if the speakers have say, a 52 degree capacitive phase angle with a 3 ohm dip in impedance, it would take a very capable amplifer to do the job.

But, his original Q was getting enough bass out when he lowered his listening level. That is what all this was about.
When the master volume goes south 20dB, so will the bass and everything else. Hence, the effects of the hearing sensitivity at lower volume, which you know well.
Now, it seems he has another issue.
I bet his speakers cannot do what he is expecting it to do. He should take a good FR measurement at say 85dB? Oh, well.

 

[mys_iii]

But, his original Q was getting enough bass out when he lowered his listening level. That is what all this was about.
When the master volume goes south 20dB, so will the bass and everything else. Hence, the effects of the hearing sensitivity at lower volume, which you know well.
Now, it seems he has another issue.
I bet his speakers cannot do what he is expecting it to do. He should take a good FR measurement at say 85dB? Oh, well.

My original ? was really that the mid-range and bass 'seemed' to need a little more ooomph at lower volumes as the speakers sounded like the tweeter was dominating at those volumes. I've tried other speakers and it seems that they also sound a bit thin at lower volumes. Combined with the human hearing factor, I guess this is all normal.

As far as the bass capabilities of the speakers, they are pretty decent so I'm fine with that. My question related to bass at higher volumes had to do with being able to extract the most out of the speakers, which a more powerful amp would probably help me do. Since I also use a power conditioner, I was pondering how much current it may be robbing from the amplifier, if at all.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My question related to bass at higher volumes had to do with being able to extract the most out of the speakers, which a more powerful amp would probably help me do.

Only if you know for sure that speaker is capable of high volume output in the bass region and at what frequencies. One reason they make subs as that is what they are designed to do, a good number of them, certainly not all.




Since I also use a power conditioner, I was pondering how much current it may be robbing from the amplifier, if at all.

Why would it rob any? If it is rated for 15A at 120V, that is what it should do, or trip early. Probably easy to test with a portable heater or a big toaster.

 

[Resident Loser]

Bada-bing...bada-boom...

...an answer to our little mys_3...

If the review of the speakers is to be believed (and I usually put little credence in the jargonistas of the audio world) they would seem to have some placement issues...

But even still, once one finds a placement scenario that will provide the low frequency extension that these units can supposedly provide, once we attenuate from a normal listening level the ugly issue of loudness compensation is still there.

Period.

Power isn't an issue...There are folks out there in audio-land who quite happily run loudspeakers of similar sensitivity on approx. 8Wpc using SET amps...Our old friend from AR, MikE Walsdor, comes to mind.

And you just can't violate the laws of physics...that size woofer, no matter how it's loaded, isn't going to move the same amount of air as a larger driver, which BTW, is still going to demonstrate the inherent roll-off of our hearing at less than spec'd levels.

Then we have the issue (as markw noted) of "there's bass, and then there's bass"...what may be perfectly fine for light jazzy stuff and/or classical chamber music, may not quite cut it for electro-techo-pop-o stuff...although to my way of thinking, any speaker system that particular doesn't really come up to true hi-fi standards.

jimHJJ(...Step #1: find out where the speakers perform their best...)

 

[Swerd]

Here is another thing to consider...

Nice speakers, but you can only get so much bass out of a 6 1/2" driver in a thin tower, no mater how glowing a review Soundstage gives them.

Where do you place your speakers in the room? How close are they to the wall behind them? The closer they are to that wall, the greater the bass is relative to the mid and treble. Many people follow the standard audiophile recommendation to move their speakers at least 2-3 feet away from the wall behind them. Try moving them around and see what difference it makes.

Look at the SoundStage review of these speakers and scroll down to "Act 3", where the reviewer, at last, deals with the bass problem by using a different speaker location in his room.

All speaker designers must decide where a speaker should be located relative to the wall behind them. A 6¼" woofer in a narrow vented cabinet can only do so much. I believe the SoundStage article said they have an f3 (the frequency at which bass response falls 3 dB below the speaker's standard level) of 40 Hz which is not bad. This bass response will be affected by location relative to a wall. If the designer intends the speakers to be located away from a wall (rather than near it), bass compensation must be included, usually in the crossover. See Martin King's article on Baffle Step Compensation where he describes this better than I can. I don't know what the designers of your Triangle Antals intended, but I can guess that they lack this bass compensation, and might benefit from being moved closer to a wall or a corner.

 

[mys_iii]

Where do you place your speakers in the room? How close are they to the wall behind them? The closer they are to that wall, the greater the bass is relative to the mid and treble. Many people follow the standard audiophile recommendation to move their speakers at least 2-3 feet away from the wall behind them. Try moving them around and see what difference it makes.

Look at the SoundStage review of these speakers and scroll down to "Act 3", where the reviewer, at last, deals with the bass problem by using a different speaker location in his room.

All speaker designers must decide where a speaker should be located relative to the wall behind them. A 6¼" woofer in a narrow vented cabinet can only do so much. I believe the SoundStage article said they have an f3 (the frequency at which bass response falls 3 dB below the speaker's standard level) of 40 Hz which is not bad. This bass response will be affected by location relative to a wall. If the designer intends the speakers to be located away from a wall (rather than near it), bass compensation must be included, usually in the crossover. See Martin King's article on Baffle Step Compensation where he describes this better than I can. I don't know what the designers of your Triangle Antals intended, but I can guess that they lack this bass compensation, and might benefit from being moved closer to a wall or a corner.

Thank you very much for that link! That was very useful. I think that article covers alot of the issues I'm experiencing even though the speakers I have are the new Antals and look nothing like the one in that review. The new ones have a horn loaded tweeter, a 5.2" midrange, and 2 6.5" woofers. They're supposed to be more refined but since I have never heard the older Antals, I can't comment on that.

I've been experimenting with the positioning of the speakers and here's what I've found so far.

Distance from the wall
I tried distances from 1' to 2' so far and if they are closer than 1.5' to the wall, the bass gets too boomy and muddy. If I put them closer to 2' then the bass is cleaner but loses some of its presence. For now I left it at 1.5' from the back wall.


Toe-in
The distance between them is about 6'. If they face straight out (i.e. 0 toe-in), the soundstage is a bit wider but the sounds don't quite seem to mesh well enough so the music doesn't sound full. If I toe them in too much, the sound is fuller but the sounstage is very narrow. I've settled for somewhere in between for now.


Sitting distance from the speakers
Unfortunately, the way I have them setup is probably not ideal as my living room is long and narrow. I have them against the long wall which limits my sitting distance from the speakers which is about 5' to 6'. I realized last night that this may be a contributing factor for the thinness I'm hearing. The wall is also not symmetric in that the right side has a stairway opening. I will try to change this so that the sound goes down the length of the room.


The other 'possible' factor I wanted to ask about is speaker break-in. A few articles claimed that these speakers take a long time to break-in. I've read the speaker break-in sticky on here and most seem to think this is a myth. I don't really have a strong opinion on this but I 'can' see how break-in is a possibility as chemical properties of materials can change over time (e.g. rubber band loses elasticity, sound-deadening materials lose some of their ability over time, etc. ).

 

[markw]

As you're finding out, speaker placement is a compromise.

When you get speakers placed for best soundstage and imaging, which is generally away from any room boundaries, it's generally at the cost of bass, which is enhanced by proximity to room boundaries.

From your seacripotions of your predicament, what I think you're referring to as "booming bass" is actually mid or upper bass, or in the range of 60 - 200 hz or so, and this is highly augmented by placement near the walls.

Not to offend, but I think you would be well served by placing the speakers for best soundstage/imaging and using a decent subwoofer, properly placed, to fill in the lowest octave or two.