A ? regarding amplifier/speaker

[Resident Loser]

Looking at...

...the Triangle site, the only model I can find is the Antal Esw...I can only assume it may be an improved model as it seems to have dual woofers and not the single as shown in the review...

Stated FR spec is 50Hz-20kHz (+/-3dB)...now 50 Hz is roughly a 'G' two octaves below middle 'C' of a piano, so any low freq info below that is reproduced outside that tolerance...and I'm gonna take an eduamcated guess it's in the negatory direction...without seeing a FR graph we'll give it the benefit of doubt and say that it's 3dB down @50Hz after a gentle roll-off...although it could be -3dB at a higher freq and may just shelve the lo-freq response in a more or less linear fashion.

In any event, this is definitely a loss of info (including fundamentals) below 50Hz and there is a lot of bottom e.g. lower registers of piano and keyboards, bass, drums, etc. in that real estate...

jimHJJ(...As markw suggested, go for soundstage, etc. and augment with a sub...but it still won't help much at lower listening levels...)

 

[mys_iii]

...the Triangle site, the only model I can find is the Antal Esw...I can only assume it may be an improved model as it seems to have dual woofers and not the single as shown in the review...

Stated FR spec is 50Hz-20kHz (+/-3dB)...now 50 Hz is roughly a 'G' two octaves below middle 'C' of a piano, so any low freq info below that is reproduced outside that tolerance...and I'm gonna take an eduamcated guess it's in the negatory direction...without seeing a FR graph we'll give it the benefit of doubt and say that it's 3dB down @50Hz after a gentle roll-off...although it could be -3dB at a higher freq and may just shelve the lo-freq response in a more or less linear fashion.

In any event, this is definitely a loss of info (including fundamentals) below 50Hz and there is a lot of bottom e.g. lower registers of piano and keyboards, bass, drums, etc. in that real estate...

jimHJJ(...As markw suggested, go for soundstage, etc. and augment with a sub...but it still won't help much at lower listening levels...)

The specs you saw on the website are actually incorrectly stated for the Antal Esw. If you look at the other lower end speakers, you'll also see that one of them also has 50Hz as the 3dB rolloff point. The correct frequency is 43Hz for the Antal and 40Hz for the Celius which is the next higher model.

 

[Swerd]

The new Antals have a horn loaded tweeter, a 5.2" midrange, and 2 6.5" woofers.

Do they look like the attached picture? I looked but did not find any more details about these speakers. They look like a 3-way with twin 6¼" woofers. Does Triangle not sell this model anymore?

As you are already finding, room placement can have a big effect on bass response. But not all these effects are pleasing, and not all room placements are practical. Good luck, I'm sure you'll find some decent compromise.

When you've exhausted the various realistic room placement options, I think that markw's other general advice about a subwoofer may be the best solution. Getting a subwoofer to seamlessly integrate with speakers is not trivial, but it is not impossible. I think that will get you a lot more than going for a more powerful amp when you already have a very good 150 watt/channel amp. To notice a difference, you would have to at least double that power, which will cost big bucks. Room placement is free, and decent subwoofers can be had for less than 300+ watt amps.

 

[mys_iii]

Do they look like the attached picture? I looked but did not find any more details about these speakers. They look like a 3-way with twin 6¼" woofers. Does Triangle not sell this model anymore?

As you are already finding, room placement can have a big effect on bass response. But not all these effects are pleasing, and not all room placements are practical. Good luck, I'm sure you'll find some decent compromise.

When you've exhausted the various realistic room placement options, I think that markw's other general advice about a subwoofer may be the best solution. Getting a subwoofer to seamlessly integrate with speakers is not trivial, but it is not impossible. I think that will get you a lot more than going for a more powerful amp when you already have a very good 150 watt/channel amp. To notice a difference, you would have to at least double that power, which will cost big bucks. Room placement is free, and decent subwoofers can be had for less than 300+ watt amps.

These are a relatively new line of speakers from Triangle and they do sell them. If you click on the "Antal" link on their page, you'll see a menu at the top left of the menu which has a "Technicals informations" link. You can get some more info there.

I will definitely experiment with placement before considering the sub route as I am not really a bass nut. I like to feel the bass but I don't want it to be too dominant.

Thanks

 

[markw]

Now now, let's not start throwing generalizations.

..I am not really a bass nu. I like to feel the bass but I don't want it to be too dominant.

That's like saying that that only rotty race car drivers use turbochargers.

I do wonder where you're picking up some of your ideas. They reek of inaccurate and unflattering stereotypes.

Deep bass is part of the music. It's not an add-on. A well integrated subwoofer is virtually (acoustically) invisible. It's only contribution should be below the main speakers effective range and it's contribution should not be consciously noticed.

HT is a different creature but we're not talking HT, are we?

In fact, the correct way to tell if a properly integrated subwoofer is employed is when it's removed from the equation. You simply notice a sudden lack of a visceral bottom end* that was otherwise perfectly natural and simply blended in with the rest of the music.

*Particularly on material with a solid bottom end such a organs, tympanis, a well recorded bass, either acoustic or electric, synths, etc...

 

[Resident Loser]

So that...

The specs you saw on the website are actually incorrectly stated for the Antal Esw. If you look at the other lower end speakers, you'll also see that one of them also has 50Hz as the 3dB rolloff point. The correct frequency is 43Hz for the Antal and 40Hz for the Celius which is the next higher model.

...brings us back to...DOH!...an 'F' (43.654Hz), give or take a few cents (as in hundredths of a semi-tone)...two octaves below middle 'C'...the cheese stands alone...still doesn't negate my post...

jimHJJ(...see, I told you about that web...)

 

[mys_iii]

That's like saying that that only rotty race car drivers use turbochargers.

I do wonder where you're picking up some of your ideas. They reek of inaccurate and unflattering stereotypes.

Deep bass is part of the music. It's not an add-on. A well integrated subwoofer is virtually (acoustically) invisible. It's only contribution should be below the main speakers effective range and it's contribution should not be consciously noticed.

HT is a different creature but we're not talking HT, are we?

In fact, the correct way to tell if a properly integrated subwoofer is employed is when it's removed from the equation. You simply notice a sudden lack of a visceral bottom end* that was otherwise perfectly natural and simply blended in with the rest of the music.

*Particularly on material with a solid bottom end such a organs, tympanis, a well recorded bass, either acoustic or electric, synths, etc...

Come on Mark. Please stop being petty and criticizing all of my opinions. I've heard integrated subs before and just don't like them. That's all. What's the big deal. I'm not stereotyping. Why couldn't you have made your comments without the

That's like saying that that only rotty race car drivers use turbochargers.

I do wonder where you're picking up some of your ideas. They reek of inaccurate and unflattering stereotypes.

 

[markw]

Well, it's true. They are inaccurate and unflattering stereotypes.

Come on Mark. Please stop being petty and criticizing all of my opinions. I've heard integrated subs before and just don't like them. That's all. What's the big deal. I'm not stereotyping. Why couldn't you have made your comments without the

By the same token, you could have easily made your point without implying that only "bass nuts" use subwoofers. If that's not stereotyping then I don't know what is.

Your posts indicate that you think all subwoofers are overused to the point of boom boom thud, overwhelming the rest of the music, which ain't the case, particularly here. Again, this is a misconception that you are basing on either what you've read somewhere or some people's abuse of a useful tool. I think we just went through something similar to this with equalizers, at least until Jim disabused you of their true purpose.

Now, I can come to either of two conclusions:

1) You've never heard a properly set up (integrated) subwoofer in a musical application. If you did, you wouldn't be so adamant about not investigating them.

or

2) You simply refuse to accept their place in a musical system, which bespeaks a preconceived prejudice, which is even more of a problem than # 1.

# 1 could be allayed with an open mind and a willingness to learn. # 2 can't.

 

[zumbo]

I am going to go with markw on this one. I do believe, in the current situation, a mild sub will be worth every penny. It took me a good while, months actually, to properly fine-tune my system. Placement, set-up, gain, and so-on. My sub cannot be located. It blends with the mains/system perfectly. I listen to the mains without the sub. I listen with the sub. Sounds like the same system, just complete with the sub. However, my mains do make it down to 33Hz. I have the system x-over @ 60Hz.

 

[no. 5]

Originally Posted by no. 5
true, it may not take a lot of watts, but if the speakers have say, a 52 degree capacitive phase angle with a 3 ohm dip in impedance, it would take a very capable amplifer to do the job.

But, his original Q was getting enough bass out when he lowered his listening level. That is what all this was about.
When the master volume goes south 20dB, so will the bass and everything else. Hence, the effects of the hearing sensitivity at lower volume, which you know well.

woops, forget I said anything.

 

[Nick250]

I might add here that two bass traps (GIK Tri-Traps in my case) turned my boomy and muddy bass into tight punchy bass. Another benefit I found was that I much greater latitude in sub placement. At $200 or so for two of them they are the best cost/benefit ratio I can imagine for my system. A real night and day improvement.

Nick

 

[mys_iii]

I've been experimenting with speaker placement and

placing them facing the length of the room has greatly improved the soundstage. I never realized just how much speaker placement AND room acoustics affect sound coming out of speakers!

Here's a ? for you 'bass' setup gurus. I have tried different positions for my speakers ( closer to the walls and further away from the walls, etc. ) and now have the following issue. I sit about 7' from the speakers and bass is greatly improved. The issue now though seems that if I go back to about 10', the bass is very good. If I sit at 7', it's just okay. I can't really sit 10' back as that would put me in the middle of the living room. Is there a way to control this at all via the positioning of the speakers? The bass seems to radiate upwards so if I go 10' back and stand up, I really hear and feel it.

Thanks

 

[Swerd]

placing them facing the length of the room has greatly improved the soundstage. I never realized just how much speaker placement AND room acoustics affect sound coming out of speakers!

I'm glad to hear that suggestion paid off for you. It's always amazing to me how big an effect room acoustics can have compared to many of the more commonly tried but less effective tweaks that fill the audiophile market place. Unfortunately, I often find that the best sounding arrangement of speakers can be impractical or impossible to live with in the real world. So compromise is the game.

Here's a ? for you 'bass' setup gurus. I have tried different positions for my speakers ( closer to the walls and further away from the walls, etc. ) and now have the following issue. I sit about 7' from the speakers and bass is greatly improved. The issue now though seems that if I go back to about 10', the bass is very good. If I sit at 7', it's just okay. I can't really sit 10' back as that would put me in the middle of the living room. Is there a way to control this at all via the positioning of the speakers? The bass seems to radiate upwards so if I go 10' back and stand up, I really hear and feel it.

What you are describing sounds very much like the common problem known as standing bass waves. In bass frequencies (below 200 Hz) reflections from the walls, floors and ceilings in many rooms cause additive peaks and subtractive cancelations to occur at various frequencies and different locations within the room. If you have a CD with various single-tone bass signals recorded on it, play a single tone, such as 60 or 80 Hz. Walk around the room and listen for the spots where you can and cannot hear the tone. Often these spots are not where your favorite chair is located . In my room the best bass response is located near the back wall!

Most rooms I've known have suffered from variations of this. What most of us hear as "bass" is usually the one (or several) frequencies where the reflections add up to a large standing peak that is much louder (by as much as 20 dB) than any of the rest of the bass. While standing waves and cancellations can be partially smoothed out in a room by effective use of bass traps and other wall treatments that absorb reflections, most people do not go this route. It can be expensive, awkward, and often ugly. There is a page at Audioholics devoted to these problems http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/roomacoustics/index.php. There was one article I remember called Crawling for Bass, but I don't see it on the list. Maybe someone can point it out.

Another way to improve this problem is with a powered subwoofer and the judicious use of a parametric equalizer. You have to be able to measure the bass response in your room (with the microphone located where you intend to listen), draw a plot of the loudness vs. frequency, and you'll see on that graph where the worst peaks and valleys are. Use the equalizer only to flatten the worst peaks. Leave the valleys alone. Then adjust the volume of the subwoofer so the new bass level is balanced with the rest of the audio spectrum. This should produce bass that is much smoother and more widely localized throughout the room. Many people recommend a Behringer Feedback Destroyer DSP1124P for this. They are widely available and should cost about $100. If you look at the Parts Express web page, under part #248-656, you can download the user's manual and learn more about this digital parametric equalizer.

 

[Nuglets]

My opinion...You can think that MarkW is being an ******* all you want but that doesn't change the fact that he is giving you some of the best advice you could ask for. Everything that he has said, besides the sarcasm, in his post's is completely useful and if I were you I would reread them, omitting anything that offends you, and experiment with his advice.