A ? regarding amplifier/speaker

[mys_iii]

matching. I have a 150W amp hooked up to a pair of speakers that are fairly sensitive at 91 dB. These speakers are supposed to be easy to drive yet the sound seems "thin" at low volumes so I have to crank it up a bit to get a "fuller" sound. Does this mean that I need a more powerful amp to drive the speakers or is this pretty much normal?

Thanks

 

[markw]

That's fairly normal.

Adding a more powerful amp won't do a thing.

Some speakers don't really "bloom" until they are driven to certain volume levels. You might employ a bit of bass boost (loudness compensation) to overcome this.

 

[mys_iii]

Adding a more powerful amp won't do a thing.

Some speakers don't really "bloom" until they are driven to certain volume levels. You might employ a bit of bass boost (loudness compensation) to overcome this.

How do you boost the bass? Thx

 

[Resident Loser]

There are...

How do you boost the bass? Thx

...these clever things colled tone controls...Perhaps you've heard of them...

Human hearing is funny...as overall volume levels decrease, the need for levels at the frequency extremes to be boosted increases...Some earlier hi-fi components had switches (some even knobs) marked "loudness compensation" modeled after the related Fletcher-Munson data on the subject...(although I have seen some newer stuff that has "night mode" settings)...and now, tone controls get a bad rap from the audiophools who must only listen to their program material at the same dB level all the time and only to specialty recordings...goodness, must be a perfect world out there!

jimHJJ(...not really...)

 

[markw]

That depends on the preamp section you're using.

How do you boost the bass? Thx

Most* preamps, integrated amps and receivers offer some sort of rudimentary tone controls. These could be as simple as bass and treble control knobs on the front panel or they could be hidden on some sub-menu buried deep in the bowels of a HT receiver. You need to check your manual for this.

* Not all. Some "high end" stuff eschews these in favor of a "pure" sound. If this is your case, you just have to accept that the powers that be have determined for you that what you are hearing is exactly what you should be hearing. Either get used to it, get different speakers, or get a setup that allows you some freedom for personal preferences.

 

[Resident Loser]

You mean...

...Either get used to it, get different speakers, or get a setup that allows you some freedom for personal preferences...

...my PTFE- coated, bi-wire, continuous crystal, Zoebel-networked $90 per ft. wire won't boost my bass?!?!?!?!?

jimHJJ(...but my wife swears she heard a difference, even tho' she was at the mall...)

 

[mys_iii]

I am one of those that

does not believe in equilizers. To effectively change different frequencies in music, the equilizer has to be very good in order to correctly filter or amplify the different frequencies. Most equilizers introduce distortion which defeats the whole purpose of having good sources and amplifiers for low distortion sounds production. Just my opinion.

I believe one reason why most speakers have the characteristic I described is that the tweeter tends to be more sensitive and easier to drive than the mi-range and bass drivers which means the tweeter dominates the sound spectrum. Hence the "thin" sound at low volume levels.

 

[markw]

I don't recall mentioning equalizers, do you?

But, by golly, what you complain about sure could be cured by one.

In theory I agree with your basic premise but, in the real world of differing recordings, speakers and acoustic environments, a tweak here and there is not against my religion. What you are saying is like forgoing needed medicine because it alters the body chemistry.

Well, I guess you'll be learning to love that thin sound. Either that, or you'll up your listening levels. In either case, You'll get used to it in time.

But, you might want to investige the previously mentioned Fletcher-Munson curve before espousing your beliefs much more.

 

[Resident Loser]

Aw geez...

...this is really futile, ain't it mark? Once more for Auld Lang Syne...

Sounds like a fact: "To effectively change different frequencies in music, the equilizer has to be very good in order to correctly filter or amplify the different frequencies."

Is that a fact? How exactly does an EQ work? Is it a filter or an amplifier? Big diff between a simple band-pass filter and full parametric...

Sounds like a fact: "Most equilizers introduce distortion which defeats the whole purpose of having good sources and amplifiers for low distortion sounds production."

Is that a fact? Even DSP? How much distortion is audible? What kind of distortion is most audible? What is a good source? Certainly not the multiple mono mix-down that passes for stereophonic sound. What's a good amp? Vacuum tube based? Now we're talkin' distortion!...

"Just my opinion."

Which is it fact or opinion? Or a factoid?

Equalizers (or some sort of tone shaping) are/is used in nearly every step of the recording process...

Equalizers get a bad rap because they are misused...think "smiley face" (one of markw's)...by bass hungry boobs...

Equalizers, semi-parametric, need to have a very narrow Q and need to be used judiciously, preferably in the "cut" mode...

Equalizers were never mentioned, we're talking tone controls, a gentle, linear upward tilt of the bass freqs <100Hz...perhaps a max boost of 6 dB@ 32Hz...

And contrary to your tweeter-based premise, it ain't the originating transducer, it's the recieving one: the ears.

jimHJJ(...both Fletcher and Munson must be slowly revolving on their respective axis...perhaps Robinson and Dadson or ISO226:2003 are more to your liking...)

 

[mys_iii]

...this is really futile, ain't it mark? Once more for Auld Lang Syne...

Sounds like a fact: "To effectively change different frequencies in music, the equilizer has to be very good in order to correctly filter or amplify the different frequencies."

Is that a fact? How exactly does an EQ work? Is it a filter or an amplifier? Big diff between a simple band-pass filter and full parametric...

Sounds like a fact: "Most equilizers introduce distortion which defeats the whole purpose of having good sources and amplifiers for low distortion sounds production."

Is that a fact? Even DSP? How much distortion is audible? What kind of distortion is most audible? What is a good source? Certainly not the multiple mono mix-down that passes for stereophonic sound. What's a good amp? Vacuum tube based? Now we're talkin' distortion!...

"Just my opinion."

Which is it fact or opinion? Or a factoid?

Equalizers (or some sort of tone shaping) are/is used in nearly every step of the recording process...

Equalizers get a bad rap because they are misused...think "smiley face" (one of markw's)...by bass hungry boobs...

Equalizers, semi-parametric, need to have a very narrow Q and need to be used judiciously, preferably in the "cut" mode...

Equalizers were never mentioned, we're talking tone controls, a gentle, linear upward tilt of the bass freqs <100Hz...perhaps a max boost of 6 dB@ 32Hz...

And contrary to your tweeter-based premise, it ain't the originating transducer, it's the recieving one: the ears.

jimHJJ(...both Fletcher and Munson must be slowly revolving on their respective axis...perhaps Robinson and Dadson or ISO226:2003 are more to your liking...)

At the risk of sounding ignorant, I must say that 'basic' tone controls ( usually 'Bass', 'Midrange', 'Treble' with += some dB ) are effectively generalized built-in equalizers. That's why I mentioned 'equalizers'.

As far as my comments regarding distortion are concerned, I can tell you that I CAN tell the difference between a $200 CD player and a more expensive one. I can also tell the difference between a cheap amplifier and a good one. A few minutes of listening to bad electronics, assuming you have a good ear, will send you running to the door thanks to the non-linear distortion (aka harsh sound) that is on top of the 'intended' sound. This is also true of speakers. That's what these HiFi magazines spend their time measuring. It definitely affects how much of the 'real' music you can hear. If you don't think so, then you should just spend a few hundred $s and not even bother to come on this "Audioholics" site.

As far as my 'deep' knowledge of equilizers is concerned, it's not all that deep. I figure if the controls show a +10dB to - 10dB, it implies there is amplification or dampening going on. I'm sure the ones they use at most recording studios are pretty good. Any secondary electronics you add must match your system. You probably wouldn't spend $10000 on speakers and an amplifier and get a $100 CD player. It would sound horrific.

 

[zumbo]

At the risk of sounding ignorant, I must say that 'basic' tone controls ( usually 'Bass', 'Midrange', 'Treble' with += some dB ) are effectively generalized built-in equalizers. That's why I mentioned 'equalizers'.

As far as my comments regarding distortion are concerned, I can tell you that I CAN tell the difference between a $200 CD player and a more expensive one. I can also tell the difference between a cheap amplifier and a good one. A few minutes of listening to bad electronics, assuming you have a good ear, will send you running to the door thanks to the non-linear distortion (aka harsh sound) that is on top of the 'intended' sound. This is also true of speakers. That's what these HiFi magazines spend their time measuring. It definitely affects how much of the 'real' music you can hear. If you don't think so, then you should just spend a few hundred $s and not even bother to come on this "Audioholics" site.

As far as my 'deep' knowledge of equilizers is concerned, it's not all that deep. I figure if the controls show a +10dB to - 10dB, it implies there is amplification or dampening going on. I'm sure the ones they use at most recording studios are pretty good. Any secondary electronics you add must match your system. You probably wouldn't spend $10000 on speakers and an amplifier and get a $100 CD player. It would sound horrific.

You have a great deal to learn. Most members here have many, many years experience. Hang around. Don't do so much talking. Read a little. Check-out all the information on the homepage. There, you can get many answers without looking like a newbie.

http://www.audioholics.com/

BTW, my speaker system retails for: $4797.99
My amp retails for: $1098.99
My receiver/pre-pro retails for: $799.99
Total of: $6696.97

I paid $99.97 for my 5-disc Yamaha cd player about 10+ years ago. It sounds better (with cd's) than my expensive Yamaha dvd/dvd-a player.

 

[markw]

sniff sniff... bwahhhhh ...my feelings are hurt.

then you should just spend a few hundred $s and not even bother to come on this "Audioholics" site.

Is it just me, or were Jim and I just told we don't know enough about audio to post here?

But, I do have one question for the master, though. If your system is all that pure, pristine and great, why are you posting here asking why is sounds so thin?

 

[mike c]

umm, these guys were helping you mys iii . that's a good way of driving away people who can help you. (not that I know anything audio)

 

[mtrycrafts]

I believe one reason why most speakers have the characteristic I described is that the tweeter tends to be more sensitive and easier to drive than the mi-range and bass drivers which means the tweeter dominates the sound spectrum. Hence the "thin" sound at low volume levels.

No, most speaker's sensitivity is linear. When you decrease volume, all frequencies volume is affected, period.
What you seem to not accept is the human hearing at lower sensitivity alters how loud you hear the low frequency and the high frequency sounds. You need it louder for both lows and highs compared the the mid section of the audio band where your hearing is the most sensitive.
http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

 

[Resident Loser]

You have...

At the risk of sounding ignorant, I must say that 'basic' tone controls ( usually 'Bass', 'Midrange', 'Treble' with += some dB ) are effectively generalized built-in equalizers. That's why I mentioned 'equalizers'.

As far as my comments regarding distortion are concerned, I can tell you that I CAN tell the difference between a $200 CD player and a more expensive one. I can also tell the difference between a cheap amplifier and a good one. A few minutes of listening to bad electronics, assuming you have a good ear, will send you running to the door thanks to the non-linear distortion (aka harsh sound) that is on top of the 'intended' sound. This is also true of speakers. That's what these HiFi magazines spend their time measuring. It definitely affects how much of the 'real' music you can hear. If you don't think so, then you should just spend a few hundred $s and not even bother to come on this "Audioholics" site.

As far as my 'deep' knowledge of equilizers is concerned, it's not all that deep. I figure if the controls show a +10dB to - 10dB, it implies there is amplification or dampening going on. I'm sure the ones they use at most recording studios are pretty good. Any secondary electronics you add must match your system. You probably wouldn't spend $10000 on speakers and an amplifier and get a $100 CD player. It would sound horrific.

...more to learn than I have the time or patience to provide...simply put, tone controls are not equalizers and vice-versa...

As to this:

...As far as my comments regarding distortion are concerned, I can tell you that I CAN tell the difference between a $200 CD player and a more expensive one. I can also tell the difference between a cheap amplifier and a good one...

Under what protocol did you arrive at this epiphany?

Sighted? Blind? Double-blind?

Do you mean to infer that price is automatically indicative of performance?

You need to re-evaluate the doctrine spewed forth by those HiFi magazines who spend more time in subjective evaluation using audiophool jargon-based phraseology, steeped in factoid, with not just a soupçon of hype...

jimHJJ(...mtry...a belated Christmas gift...he's all yours...)

 

[mys_iii]

No, most speaker's sensitivity is linear. When you decrease volume, all frequencies volume is affected, period.
What you seem to not accept is the human hearing at lower sensitivity alters how loud you hear the low frequency and the high frequency sounds. You need it louder for both lows and highs compared the the mid section of the audio band where your hearing is the most sensitive.
http://www.webervst.com/fm.htm

My apologies for coming across as an "arrogant know it all". I don't claim to know alot when it comes to HiFi electronics. I came on here expecting some good help and information so I could learn more but what I saw from some members was a "you know nothing you embicile" attitude in their responses. I don't appreciate that at all. I may not know alot but I do have an electrical engineering degree so I do know a thing or two about electronics.

When I was referring to the sensitivity of the different drivers, I was referring to the ability of each driver to produce a certain decibel level of sounds given the same inputs. As far as I understand it, sensitivity is defined as how loud a sound the speaker will produce for a given power input. When an amp feeds in a certain amount of current to the speakers, this current is split between the different drivers since they are in parallel. The volume level is really irrelevant here. I'm assuming that the current will be split equally between the drivers. If the tweeter is more sensitive than the other drivers, it will produce a louder sound than the other drivers given the same amount of current going through it. I've made some assumptions here which may or may not be true. I just wanted to throw it out there to get some feedback on it knowing well that some of my assumptions may not hold.

Thanks for all your help.

 

[markw]

My apologies for coming across as an "arrogant know it all". I don't claim to know alot when it comes to HiFi electronics.

Well, yes you did. When confronted with a solution you didn't "believe" in, you jumped in, both feet first, with technojargon as to why you don't "believe" in it. If you don't see that, then you're only deluding yourself.

I came on here expecting some good help and information so I could learn more...

... and you got it. It's not our fault that you didn't like the truth when presented with it. How you think you can correct those deficiencs without altering the response curve is beyond me.

...but what I saw from some members was a "you know nothing you embicile" attitude in their responses.

Let's be honest shall we? You presented a problem. We offered solutions. You 're the one that didn't have a clue as to how to apply a little bass boost. And you claim a EE degree?

For reasons that depend more on "belief" than "fact" you don't like those solutions. Now, if you have alternative solutions, please share them. fancy ables perhaps? Wouldn't that be another form of a tone control if it works?

I don't appreciate that at all.

Obviously. It's kinda like having cold water thrwn on onesself to wake them up.

I may not know alot but I do have an electrical engineering degree so I do know a thing or two about electronics.

Don't even think you're the only one here who can make that claim. Add a cumulative several hundred years of real world experience in audio and electronics to us here as well. As you progress in your learning, you'll learn that what looks good on paper doesn't always hold true in the real world. One would think that with the chops you imply, applying a little bass boost would have been a no-brainer unless, of course, your courses didn't include audio amplifiers and feedback circuits.

When I was referring to the sensitivity of the different drivers, I was referring to the ability of each driver to produce a certain decibel level of sounds given the same inputs. As far as I understand it, sensitivity is defined as how loud a sound the speaker will produce for a given power input. When an amp feeds in a certain amount of current to the speakers, this current is split between the different drivers since they are in parallel. The volume level is really irrelevant here. I'm assuming that the current will be split equally between the drivers. If the tweeter is more sensitive than the other drivers, it will produce a louder sound than the other drivers given the same amount of current going through it.

Theoretically true, but read on...

I've made some assumptions here which may or may not be true.

Now that I can get behind. Keep reading.

I just wanted to throw it out there to get some feedback on it knowing well that some of my assumptions may not hold.

You want feedback? Ok, here goes. Nice words that on initial reading look impressive to those that don't know how this stuff works, but did you ever hear of something called a crossover and how it's implemented in a speaker system? It sure doesn't appear so. So much for that EE degree, eh?

 

[mys_iii]

Well, yes you did. When confronted with a solution you didn't "believe" in, you jumped in, both feet first, with technojargon as to why you don't "believe" in it. If you don't see that, then you're only deluding yourself.

... and you got it. It's not our fault that you didn't like the truth when presented with it. How you think you can correct those deficiencs without altering the response curve is beyond me.

Let's be honest shall we? You presented a problem. We offered solutions. You 're the one that didn't have a clue as to how to apply a little bass boost. And you claim a EE degree?

For reasons that depend more on "belief" than "fact" you don't like those solutions. Now, if you have alternative solutions, please share them. fancy ables perhaps? Wouldn't that be another form of a tone control if it works?

Obviously. It's kinda like having cold water thrwn on onesself to wake them up.

Don't even think you're the only one here who can make that claim. Add a cumulative several hundred years of real world experience in audio and electronics to us here as well. As you progress in your learning, you'll learn that what looks good on paper doesn't always hold true in the real world. One would think that with the chops you imply, applying a little bass boost would have been a no-brainer unless, of course, your courses didn't include audio amplifiers and feedback circuits.

Theoretically true, but read on...

Now that I can get behind. Keep reading.

You want feedback? Ok, here goes. Nice words that on initial reading look impressive to those that don't know how this stuff works, but did you ever hear of something called a crossover and how it's implemented in a speaker system? It sure doesn't appear so. So much for that EE degree, eh?

I appreciate the solutions you suggested for my original question. I didn't realize that I "had" to accept those solutions. Here you go again with the "attitude". I just love it when people try to complicate simple concepts so they can look sophisticated. Ooooh. Crossover. Wow. What a complex concept. Who cares about nuclear physics. This is mindboggling stuff. I don't try to impress others by comlicating concepts in case other people don't quite know what I'm talking about. Ever heard of Richard Feynman. The great Caltech physicist who tried to teach the layperson physics? I know what a crossover is. It still doesn't change the basic concept that you have a power source, three circuits in parallel each of which will get a certain amount of current going through it. The current is what controls the sound coming out of the drivers. The impedance of each circuit controls how much current goes through it. In the real world, I doubt that the impedance of the three are exactly the same.

 

[mys_iii]

Here's some reading for those of you that said

"Tone Controls and Equilizers are not the same thing".

http://www.answers.com/topic/tone-control-circuits

Here's a nice quote from there.

"More elaborate tone control circuits can elevate or attenuate the middle range of frequencies too. Really elaborate tone controls provide elevation or attenuation in 1/3 octave bands spanning from approximately 30 Hz to 18 kHz. These units are called graphic equalizers because their controls are in the form of sliders that are arranged so as to graphically display the amount of boost or cut being applied at any frequency of interest."

 

[Resident Loser]

"Jane, you...

Here you go again with the "attitude". I just love it when people try to complicate simple concepts so they can look sophisticated...I don't try to impress others by comlicating(sic) concepts in case other people don't quite know what I'm talking about...

...ignorant slut" says Dan Akroyd...

...Gee, the sound is thin at low levels...

...Turn up the bass, Jane...

Simple concept, why it's an answer even an Einstein could appreciate...but then again, you're no Einstein...talk about much ado about nothing!

Hint: electronics isn't acoustics and vice-versa...there are things that remain constant in the equation, but only within its' respective realm. Nominal impedance anyone?

I get this feeling I have ties older than you...

jimHJJ(...Hey jneutron, maybe you want a piece of this...)