A Lesson in Taxation

[Nemo128]

I'm curious. We all (myself included) criticize till we're blue in the face. What real alternative solutions do we provide? Other than things that have proven to be failures in the past or are totally unsubstantiated and have no supporting evidence of viability.

Let the free market work itself out? Right...

 

[rnatalli]

Anyone who believes the US is a free market is as naive as a virgin. The term "Free Market" is on a sliding scale and it's relative to other countries.

 

[avaserfi]

Anyone who believes the US is a free market is as naive as a virgin. The term "Free Market" is on a sliding scale and it's relative to other countries.

Same thought goes for the long standing fallacy that the US was ever or is a true meritocracy. The founding fathers structured our constitution to discriminate against specific individuals - woman, colored individuals and pretty much anyone not up to par - through the electoral college among other things. In a sense the founding fathers constructed not a true democracy, but, instead, democratic elitism which still exists today.

Fast forward to current day where there are large structural (see disparities throughout the country on schooling for one example or distribution of woman within positions of political/business power as it relates to household work/child raising for another) limits on individuals ability to succeed. Look into Social Disorganization Theory specifically Shaw and McKay's work as one simple example of such disparity which shows that there are specific locations where people live, the inner city, which are related to increased criminality and decreased education (among other related variables) regardless of race/ethnicity, gender, religious beliefs etc...

The simple fact is most (not all) people who succeed in this country are not just the smartest or hardest working there are very real structural issues which limit many peoples success based on race, ethnicity, gender, location of birth and many other factors. Privilege plays a large role in most peoples success (mine included) regardless of its recognition.

 

[Rickster71]

You might be on to something. Bush used a disaster to take away our civil liberties and Obama will do the same for something else. I simply happen too agree with Obama's focus.

Absolutely agree.
I linked to the thread below, where I mention a few instances through our history:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53601
Since I'm a Libertarian, I've allowed myself to see wrong when Both parties do it to us. And believe me, they are.

 

[Rickster71]

I'm curious. We all (myself included) criticize till we're blue in the face. What real alternative solutions do we provide? Other than things that have proven to be failures in the past or are totally unsubstantiated and have no supporting evidence of viability.

A solution can't be provided until the true cause of a problem is identified.
The game of politics prevents that...it always will.
The first rule in the shell game of politics: Never let the common tax payer know the real truth.

 

[Nemo128]

A solution can't be provided until the true cause of a problem is identified.
The game of politics prevents that...it always will.
The first rule in the shell game of politics: Never let the common tax payer know the real truth.

Thanks Rickster, you finally responded to me without flaming for once.

 

[Rickster71]

Thanks Rickster, you finally responded to me without flaming for once.

Since it's a two way street, let's keep it that way.

I really believe we tax payers are in this together.
There isn't a difference in politicians, or political science, or parties.
The subtle differences, that are there, are only meant to divide and conquer us.

 

[Alex2507]

Thanks Rickster, you finally responded to me without flaming for once.

He's saving his flame based impulses for Key West.
You b!tch!

 

[Rickster71]

He's saving his flame based impulses for Key West.
You b!tch!

Aren't you supposed to be at the gym exercising?
And put that candy bar down.

 

[Alex2507]

The founding fathers structured our constitution to discriminate against specific individuals - women

Somebody really let the cat out of the bag on this one, eh?
In Saudi Arabia or something they killed the guy who wanted to let them drive cars.

 

[avaserfi]

Somebody really let the cat out of the bag on this one, eh?

Why should the founders of our country be subject to any less scrutiny than our current leaders?

In Saudi Arabia or something they killed the guy who wanted to let them drive cars.

Certainly, there are different levels of agency afforded to differing genders, social classes, religions, races etc... throughout cultures in the world. Although, it is important to remember that our conception of what is and is not just is clouded by our western ideology. Many western theorists and thinkers have narrowly claimed that veiling practices, for example, are only a form of domination. Certainly, there are aspects of domination within such practices, but claiming that there is no gained power/agency within these practices is culturally short sighted.

Please note, I am in no way condoning the practice quoted above.

 

[Alex2507]

Please note, I am in no way condoning the practice quoted above.

Give it time.

 

[Davemcc]

This is why we must work towards socialism. A balance between wealth and poverty.

We should work towards socialism? Really???

Let's take a look at socialism in practice. Should we model ourselves after Russia or China. Naw, those are communist, AKA extreme socialist. How about Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela? I wouldn't even vacation in those places, never mind have to live there.

So how about Europe, say...Denmark? First off, Denmark is an exception because it's system is propped up by huge reserves of offshore North Sea oil. If you want to see how European socialism works without Denmark's Saudi-style wealth, look towards Italy. Chaotic politics and economics and getting poorer every day. France, Germany and the others will continue to get poorer as they begin to run out of other people's money. They are just now expending centuries of mercantile and colonial wealth. That can't last forever.

I can't recommend Canada's version of socialism either...sorry.

In the grand scheme of world history, socialism is a relatively new concept and in every case, except maybe Denmark with it's oil, the standard of living in every nation that adopted socialism has dropped relative to the degree to which socialism has been implemented. Even now, you will be able to watch the standard of living drop in the US to the extent that the new administration implements it's socialist agenda (or to be more correct, it's fascist agenda).

 

[lsiberian]

We should work towards socialism? Really???

Let's take a look at socialism in practice. Should we model ourselves after Russia or China. Naw, those are communist, AKA extreme socialist. How about Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela? I wouldn't even vacation in those places, never mind have to live there.

So how about Europe, say...Denmark? First off, Denmark is an exception because it's system is propped up by huge reserves of offshore North Sea oil. If you want to see how European socialism works without Denmark's Saudi-style wealth, look towards Italy. Chaotic politics and economics and getting poorer every day. France, Germany and the others will continue to get poorer as they begin to run out of other people's money. They are just now expending centuries of mercantile and colonial wealth. That can't last forever.

I can't recommend Canada's version of socialism either...sorry.

In the grand scheme of world history, socialism is a relatively new concept and in every case, except maybe Denmark with it's oil, the standard of living in every nation that adopted socialism has dropped relative to the degree to which socialism has been implemented. Even now, you will be able to watch the standard of living drop in the US to the extent that the new administration implements it's socialist agenda (or to be more correct, it's fascist agenda).

Our country's system has worked only for the wealthy, and is deteriorating for the poor and even the middle class. Now everyone needs 2 jobs to live on instead of one. Our wealth Distribution rivals that of China and is well below all of Europe. Every place has issues, but seriously the poor have poor access to good health care, shelter, and food. Education is greatly hurt by the fact that there physiological needs aren't being met. However we can't simply throw money at any problem. And it takes years to get real results because we must first raise up leaders in that community and that requires living among them. Barack Obama was a community organizer. Which is a position that is designed to empower people in poor communities to improve that community. I think his understanding of the real needs of the poor will greatly aid in helping them.

I know many people don't realize what life is like in the hood and what it's like to be poor. I suggest you take part in a poverty simulation where you learn what it's like to be poor. It can be eye opening and change a lot of views. Especially when a homeless man gives his own blood to buy you a meal.

I think socialism that is government based is terrible as your examples show, but socialism that is done by individuals through charitable work can be quite effective. Especially if the Charity knows and understands the needs for success.

FYI Cuba, and China actually are doing ok. China is growing very fast, and Cuba has some of the best economic indicators in the Caribbean. They only lack medical supplies because of our embargo. Which was really more of a racists act IMO. Vietnam was also caused by racism.

Has democracy worked in every nation?

 

[Rickster71]

We should work towards socialism? Really???

Let's take a look at socialism in practice. Should we model ourselves after Russia or China. Naw, those are communist, AKA extreme socialist. How about Vietnam, North Korea, Cuba, Venezuela? I wouldn't even vacation in those places, never mind have to live there.

So how about Europe, say...Denmark? First off, Denmark is an exception because it's system is propped up by huge reserves of offshore North Sea oil. If you want to see how European socialism works without Denmark's Saudi-style wealth, look towards Italy. Chaotic politics and economics and getting poorer every day. France, Germany and the others will continue to get poorer as they begin to run out of other people's money. They are just now expending centuries of mercantile and colonial wealth. That can't last forever.

I can't recommend Canada's version of socialism either...sorry.

In the grand scheme of world history, socialism is a relatively new concept and in every case, except maybe Denmark with it's oil, the standard of living in every nation that adopted socialism has dropped relative to the degree to which socialism has been implemented. Even now, you will be able to watch the standard of living drop in the US to the extent that the new administration implements it's socialist agenda (or to be more correct, it's fascist agenda).

Thanks Dave, for your usual breath of fresh air.

I don't really blame others here for the way they feel about socialism, it isn't really their fault.
They've been indoctrinated. From grammar school on up to college, socialism is subtlety taught.

The Elementary and Secondary Education Act (1965) was a major shift. It changed our system of education -- which, up until 1960, was the best in the world.

Please allow me to recommend, yet another book:
The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - By Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the U.S. Department of Education.

Much of this book contains quotes from government documents detailing the real purposes of American education:
"To reject high academic standards in favor of OBE/ISO 1400/90006 egalitarianism;" - " To reject truth and absolutes in favor of tolerance, situational ethics and consensus;" "To reject American values in favor of internationalist values"

Teachers are instructed how to instill humanistic (no right/no wrong) values in the K-3 students. At the text's suggestion they were encouraged to take little tots for walks in town during which he/she would point out big and small houses, asking the little tots who they thought lived in the houses. Poor or Rich? "What do you think they eat in the big house?...in the little house?" Slowly sowing the seeds of class warfare.

Kids aren't being educated, they are being indoctrinated, and that explains why U. S. twelfth graders scored below the international average, and are among the lowest of the 21 Industrial Nations in both mathematics and science general knowledge in the final year of secondary school. Even though the U.S. spends the most per student.

 

[craigsub]

Out of the mouths of babes ...

This was emailed to me by a friend of mine who is also a Green Beret:


At our base, we have civilian workers that work in non-military support positions. There is one non-military couple, with whom I have many disagreements politically, who have a 10 year old daughter. She attends school with my daughter.

Her parents believe that European style socialism is what we need here. They also enjoy lecturing my daughter on social awareness when ever they get the chance.

A few days ago, I happened to hear the parents talking to both of the girls outside the school, espousing their political beliefs.

I decided it was time to take action, so I asked their daughter: "What would you do if you were President of the United States".

She replied, 'I'd give food and houses to all the poor people.'

Her parents beamed.

"Wow...what an admirable goal !", I told her. "But you don't have to wait
until you're President to do that. You can come over to my house and
mow the lawn, pull weeds, and sweep my yard, and I'll pay you $100.

Then I'll take you over to the grocery store where the homeless man
hangs out, and you can give him the $100 to use toward food and a new house."

She thought that over for a few seconds, then she looked me straight
in the eye and replied: "You want me to work all weekend only to give my money to him? Why doesn't he come over and do the work, and you can pay him the $100?"

Her parents left in a hurry, dragging her along. The next PTA meeting should be fun.

 

[Alex2507]

So the Republican Party shares the ideological philosophies of a 10 year old girl?

EDIT: I added the smilies so that there is no chance of being taken seriously.
I hope itchris is at work. I want a new rec'r.

 

[Rickster71]

So the Republican Party shares the ideological philosophies of a 10 year old girl?

Both parties do.
But I swear.....she looked fifteen.

 

[avaserfi]

The Elementary and Secondary Education Act (1965) was a major shift. It changed our system of education -- which, up until 1960, was the best in the world.

There are many factors involved with the shift in educational standards around the world rather than one single act. It is most certainly true that America had a relatively good education system before the 1960s, but for who? There were [are] few individuals who could [can] take advantage of it. The greatest education system in the world is useless if less than one quarter of the population can truly take advantage of it. After the mid 1960s there was a movement where funding was spread out to give more opportunity at greater education. At this point there was no longer enough funding to go around. Of course, the military budget is more important than educating the future leaders of our country .

Additionally, if comparing the American education system to other higher performing systems there are many factors which contribute to the decline in our educational standards besides indoctrination. Take, math class, for example. There is little if any indoctrination (as you use the term) in such courses, but teachers are forced to teach to a test because of ideas like the "no child left behind" act (there were similar acts in many states prior to the national push). Rather than learning students are forced to memorize the "skills" required to pass a test. Many times there are too many of these skills to be mastered in a year so it is just a game that is maintained until the pointless test is passed. Meanwhile, in higher performing countries indoctrination still occurs (this is and has been one primary purpose of education systems - socialization), but there are still expectations of mastery which is now seems to only be expected at the graduate level within our country.

Please allow me to recommend, yet another book:
The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America - By Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt, former Senior Policy Advisor in the U.S. Department of Education.

I found this book clearly had an ax to grind taking a narrow view of the issues within America which cause the poor educational system.

This was emailed to me by a friend of mine who is also a Green Beret:

...

There is the implicit, false, assumption within this story that those who work hard are successful and those who do not are not successful. This is not always the case, there are many forms of advantage which some individuals get because of the location born (nationally and internationally), gender, parents etc...

 

[Rickster71]

I found this book clearly had an ax to grind taking a narrow view of the issues within America which cause the poor educational system.

Hello Andrew,
could you mention some specific points in the book, that you are suspicious of?
Thanks.

I do understand everyone sees from their own perspectives; though I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water, in regards to the book.

Much of this book contains quotes from government documents. I certainly wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
The author takes to task every president from Lyndon Johnson, right up to, and including both Bush presidents.
So, I didn't see much of a political agenda.

Regards,
Rick