8500 not on Denon’s website

VMPS-TIII

VMPS-TIII

Audioholic Chief
Again, to be clear, my comments are based on the conditions I specified, there are always conditions under which an external power amp will contribute to less distortions at the spl the user needs, but then even under those exceptional conditions, we all know, 200 W (Monolith) vs 120 W (AVR) isn't quit 3 dB more and that's why for people who is after more power, I would tend to recommend 300 W amps, and those that could do much better in terms of dynamic output, in order to make a real/significant difference.
@PENG - I have a 7.2.4 configuration with 7' VMPS SuperTower III setup as surrounds. When I use multi-channel stereo it's to pair the bold sound of these monster towers with the high definition of the Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20 tweeters (along with height speakers).

The Denon volume control has to be down by 10 clicks to level match with stereo mode vs multi-channel. You can play much louder or drop the volume as you suggest. I can't speak for others but when I play in multi-channel mode the preferred volume is almost always louder. In addition, the Monolith7 offers over 300 watts per channel with 4 ohm speakers like the Sierra Towers.

Maybe my Denon 4500 height channels failed prematurely because the hardware was marginal? Or maybe multi-channel does cause additional strain? Or maybe when I used height channels as "B" fronts that caused a strain? I would need about 20 receivers to test each option with and without external amps. :cool:

I understand your theory is the same power used over more channels should not add strain - but, I think it's more normal that multichannel is used with significantly higher volume levels rather than the same level.
 
Old Onkyo

Old Onkyo

Senior Audioholic
I used to think that but now I think that is actually overrated.

Think about this, in a small, medium to medium large room you can typically get 3 dB more from the 2nd and 2 dB for 3rd speakers, and then another 1.5 to 1.0 dB for additional speakers up to 7 speakers.

So going from 2 channel stereo to 7 channel stereo, you will gain another 5.5 dB, so if you need 10 W to get the spl you want for 2 ch stereo, if you set to 7 ch stereo, you will need only 2.8 W total for the same spl, say you want to double the volume/spl/loudness when playing 7 channel stereo mode, you still only need a little more than half total watt of that require for two channel stereo. People normally listen to 7 channel stereo for the effects, not really about wanting louder because then they can just crank it up.

In a large room, it may be a little different, otherwise, it really doesn't mean you need more power for the surround channels when in 7 ch stereo mode unless you have speakers for those channels that have relatively lower sensitivity, impedance and higher power handling capability.

I would tend to recommend 300 W amps, and those that could do much better in terms of dynamic output, in order to make a real/significant difference.
Which amps fit the bill?
 
V

Vince NC

Audioholic Intern
Lots of great discussions but I just thought it was odd that it was taken down. The A-110 special edition is there and the 8500 gone. Almost seems they are trying to force the A-110 on you if you want anything over 11 channels in a one box solution.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Don't know... :(
Difficult situation under internal review by Sound United..
Will post more info when I get some updates...

Just my $0.02... ;)
Well at least Denon did the right thing by pulling back. Yamaha dumped their new line of 2020 AVR's on the end users and from what other's have stated Yamaha is taking the high road. One AH member called into Yamahas CS, from what he stated they just passed the buck saying it's all good with their new 2020 AVR's and it's issues with other sources and Not their 2.1. After reading this that Denon pulled back their flagship unit makes me feel even better sending back my V6A.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@PENG - I have a 7.2.4 configuration with 7' VMPS SuperTower III setup as surrounds. When I use multi-channel stereo it's to pair the bold sound of these monster towers with the high definition of the Ascend Sierra Towers with RAAL 70-20 tweeters (along with height speakers).

The Denon volume control has to be down by 10 clicks to level match with stereo mode vs multi-channel. You can play much louder or drop the volume as you suggest. I can't speak for others but when I play in multi-channel mode the preferred volume is almost always louder. In addition, the Monolith7 offers over 300 watts per channel with 4 ohm speakers like the Sierra Towers.

Maybe my Denon 4500 height channels failed prematurely because the hardware was marginal? Or maybe multi-channel does cause additional strain? Or maybe when I used height channels as "B" fronts that caused a strain? I would need about 20 receivers to test each option with and without external amps. :cool:

I understand your theory is the same power used over more channels should not add strain - but, I think it's more normal that multichannel is used with significantly higher volume levels rather than the same level.
Fair points, my spl/7 Ch (or 9, 11 Ch) power amp comments were based on keeping the spl the same or even double that of the spl when in 2 CH ST., but if you do listen to much higher spl, such as 10 dB louder when in 7 ch stereo mode then of course it could kill your AVR or even the Monolith. As you know, if you provide me with the minimum required info such as the Super tower's sensitivity, impedance specs, distance, actual average spl listened to, then I can tell you whether the Monolith amps are required, or can do the job for you with spare capacities. My guess is that you do need that amp and have made a great choice. My point is, a lot of people might have the misconception that just because they like 7 CH St, they need a seven channel power amp.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Are we looking at all AVRs with the Panasonic based HDMI2.1 being recalled from Denon and Yamaha? Or will they just give an option of repairs?
Good question.... :confused:
My understanding is that the HDMI 2.1 issue cannot be fixed by firmware...
So now the possible solutions are:
  • Change the IC and/or PCB to an updated one...
  • The brand needs to kick in some type of $ rebate
  • Work out a unit exchange program with existing purchasers
  • Recall existing inventory of affected products for rework
Now the brands are facing a major dilemma... :rolleyes:
I will advise more info whenever I receive further information..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
To fix on Xbox end, possibly could Microsoft change to sending compressed instead of uncompressed? Guessing Microsoft wouldn’t want to make a change though.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Samurai
Good question.... :confused:
My understanding is that the HDMI 2.1 issue cannot be fixed by firmware...
So now the possible solutions are:
  • Change the IC and/or PCB to an updated one...
  • The brand needs to kick in some type of $ rebate
  • Work out a unit exchange program with existing purchasers
  • Recall existing inventory of affected products for rework
Now the brands are facing a major dilemma... :rolleyes:
I will advise more info whenever I receive further information..

Just my $0.02... ;)
Thanks, M Code! As usual great info! I returned my V6A, I really didn't want to, the sound is very nice with the V6A. But after reading post of the issues with 2.1 and after Genes postup on his findings, yeah was time to send it back for refund.
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Good question.... :confused:
My understanding is that the HDMI 2.1 issue cannot be fixed by firmware...
So now the possible solutions are:
  • Change the IC and/or PCB to an updated one...
  • The brand needs to kick in some type of $ rebate
  • Work out a unit exchange program with existing purchasers
  • Recall existing inventory of affected products for rework
Now the brands are facing a major dilemma... :rolleyes:
I will advise more info whenever I receive further information..

Just my $0.02... ;)
This is why being an early adopter (even unintentionally) is just risky. First receiver generation with HDMI 2.1? Pass until stuff like this gets worked out.

Thanks for the info as always.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
This is why being an early adopter (even unintentionally) is just risky. First receiver generation with HDMI 2.1? Pass until stuff like this gets worked out.

Thanks for the info as always.
Correcto... :rolleyes:
Being an early adopter does have some risk...
IMHO...
The basic challenge is that there are very few HDMI 2.1 source components available so it is impossible for the HDMI 2.1 performance and compatibility to be verified...

Just my $0.02.... ;)
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Correcto... :rolleyes:
Being an early adopter does have some risk...
IMHO...
The basic challenge is that there are very few HDMI 2.1 source components available so it is impossible for the HDMI 2.1 performance and compatibility to be verified...

Just my $0.02.... ;)
That's exactly the reason too. Good point.

It's like all those poor folks that bought 4k tvs with HDMI 1.4. Sure, they had a 4k TV, but it can't use almost anything as a source since most require HDMI 2.0.

Had a friend say he was going to get one back then and he said "I've done my research." Didn't make him very happy when I said "apparently not."
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
That's exactly the reason too. Good point.

It's like all those poor folks that bought 4k tvs with HDMI 1.4. Sure, they had a 4k TV, but it can't use almost anything as a source since most require HDMI 2.0.

Had a friend say he was going to get one back then and he said "I've done my research." Didn't make him very happy when I said "apparently not."
Ya I feel like you don’t change AVR until you buy a new TV so you know the requirements. Maybe that’s a better plan.

Otherwise at this rate, we may be on version HDMI2.2 before it’s all perfect for any stretch of time. :)
 
panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Spartan
Ya I feel like you don’t change AVR until you buy a new TV so you know the requirements. Maybe that’s a better plan.

Otherwise at this rate, we may be on version HDMI2.2 before it’s all perfect for any stretch of time. :)
Honestly, as long as what I have works together I'm not concerned, but when brand new versions of something come out, especially HDMI, I'm very cautious. HDMI has been such a train wreck since it's inception you have to pay attention to that stuff.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
That's exactly the reason too. Good point.

It's like all those poor folks that bought 4k tvs with HDMI 1.4. Sure, they had a 4k TV, but it can't use almost anything as a source since most require HDMI 2.0.

Had a friend say he was going to get one back then and he said "I've done my research." Didn't make him very happy when I said "apparently not."
Oh yeah, then there was a year of AVRs that were in a similar situation. I don't recall the specifics, but I "think" it was the 2014 models. I do recall, whatever the difficulty was, I wanted to be sure to get a couple of years models past that to be certain the problem was corrected.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Spartan
Honestly, as long as what I have works together I'm not concerned, but when brand new versions of something come out, especially HDMI, I'm very cautious. HDMI has been such a train wreck since it's inception you have to pay attention to that stuff.
Agreed! If it is working, don't jack with it!

Too many times, a simple "upgrade" has turned into a "downgrade", usually what happens is that an upgrade will introduce some problem that wasn't there before. Down the rabbit hole I go......

I am pretty dang happy with my setup right now, all the CEC and ARC features work pretty well, which is a crap shoot. There are a couple of small quirks, but mostly they can be avoided, or the very worst case would be a TV and AVR power cycle to get everything back in order. Maybe once every few weeks I would have to do that, but I know the quirk and it is somewhat of a special-use case. And, it is much easier to tell the wife to power cycle vs. trying to get her to remember the button sequence to get it back to baseline.
 

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