$600 EMO pre-pro measures better than $10,000 BRYSTON SP3

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Wait, how did I miss this? The $600 Emotiva pre-pro has even better measurements than the $10,000 Bryston!

$600 Emotiva UMC-200:
Emotiva UMC-200 Preamp/Processor HT Labs Measures | Home Theater
"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.20 dB at 10 Hz, –0.05 dB at 20 Hz, –0.02 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.12 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.016 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to 65.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –93.91 dB left to right and –92.23 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –127.94 dBrA."


.........


$10,000 Bryston SP3:
Bryston SP3 Surround Processor and 9B SST² Amplifier HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

"Response from the multichannel input to the main output measures –0.05 dB at 10 Hz, –0.01 dB at 20 Hz, –0.06 dB at 20 kHz, and –0.42 dB at 50 kHz. The analog THD+N was less than 0.022 percent at 1 kHz with a 100-millivolt input and the volume control set to +2.5. Crosstalk with a 100-mV input was –92.92 dB left to right and –93.44 dB right to left. The signal-to-noise ratio with “A” weighting was –121.59 dBrA."

So a $600 made-in-China Emotiva measures practically better than almost all other Pre-pros measured on HTM, except the $9K Classe or $7.5K Denon ? :eek:
 
I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
The difference is the Emotiva can't compare with Bryston most likely in warranty services, and itself is beaten by a $300 receiver in terms of inputs and legacy connections...also, no balanced XLR connections to speakers, or an internally balanced design.

Anyway, price increases are pretty much hyperbolic when it comes to features on a pre-pro. I mean just consider Oppo's blu ray pricing scheme...

Then again, maybe separates just aren't a great value in general, that $8000 Bryston amp measures worse than the old Yamaha RX-Z11 or Denon AVR-5805 flagship receivers, which retailed at half the cost of that power amp...
 
Last edited:
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Spec wars ....... here we go again... Doesn't matter a dam that the differences are inaudible.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Spec wars ....... here we go again... Doesn't matter a dam that the differences are inaudible.
It may not matter to you. But there are other members besides you. Just because you don't give a damn about crosstalk & SNR doesn't mean other members don't give a damn about crosstalk & SNR.

TLS Guy and I (& many other people) don't give a damn about vinyl music either, but you don't see me raining on your vinyl parade.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The difference is the Emotiva can't compare with Bryston most likely in warranty services, and itself is beaten by a $300 receiver in terms of inputs and legacy connections...also, no balanced XLR connections to speakers, or an internally balanced design.

Anyway, price increases are pretty much hyperbolic when it comes to features on a pre-pro. I mean just consider Oppo's blu ray pricing scheme...

Then again, maybe separates just aren't a great value in general, that $8000 Bryston amp measures worse than the old Yamaha RX-Z11 or Denon AVR-5805 flagship receivers, which retailed at half the cost of that power amp...
Well, I just want to be clear that the odds of me owning a Bryston is a lot more than the odds of me owning an Emotiva.

It was just simply interesting to me when I saw those measurements. Nothing more than simple curiosity.

How can they make a $600 pre-pro that measure like a $10K pre-pro?

What is their secret?

Why can't Arcam make a $6K AVR that measures like that?

How can the Sony engineer make a $500 AVR that measures better than a $5000/6000 Arcam AVR? What's going on?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Well, I just want to be clear that the odds of me owning a Bryston is a lot more than the odds of me owning an Emotiva.

It was just simply interesting to me when I saw those measurements. Nothing more than simple curiosity.

How can they make a $600 pre-pro that measure like a $10K pre-pro?

What is their secret?

Why can't Arcam make a $6K AVR that measures like that?

How can the Sony engineer make a $500 AVR that measures better than a $5000/6000 Arcam AVR? What's going on?
I seem to recall an engineer once saying that good engineering costs no more than bad engineering. Just because someone puts a thick aluminum case on something, that does not make the unit outperform something in a cheap case. Nor does magical voodoo nonsense favored by some audiophiles and the companies that cater to them.

The simple fact is, great performance in a preamp or processor need not be that expensive. But since fools and their money are easily parted, there are companies ready to help that process along.

As for some of the expensive stuff measuring worse than some of the cheaper stuff, many "audiophiles" don't care about measurements, with some even being prejudiced against extremely good measurements, claiming that making a product measure really well somehow detracts from the "musicality" of the product.


There are also those who grasp at straws, going on about warranties and so forth. When a product costs 10 times as much as another one, the cheaper one does not need to have a great warranty to be a much better value. If the more expensive one lasts twice as long, it is still 5 times more expensive, as with the cheaper one, one simply buys a second one. And very often, the more expensive one does not last any longer than a reasonably priced unit. Just look at some of the gear from the past. Some reasonably priced gear has held up very well. Putting the unit in a thick aluminum case and charging a fortune for it does not make something magically more reliable.

Basically, the mistake you are making is supposing that price correlates with performance. It obviously doesn't. At least, it is obvious to those who carefully look at actual performance. Sure, you can't get a great unit for really cheap, but once one spends enough to get the job done well, more money is just for show, not anything to do with actual sound quality. Basically, $10k for a preamp is a waste of money, if audio performance is the real goal. But for many who prate glibly about sound being what matters, sound really isn't what matters. It is bragging rights and show that matter to them.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
It may not matter to you. But there are other members besides you. Just because you don't give a damn about crosstalk & SNR doesn't mean other members don't give a damn about crosstalk & SNR.

TLS Guy and I (& many other people) don't give a damn about vinyl music either, but you don't see me raining on your vinyl parade.


Sorry Dude.. My comments weren't directed at you at all. I didn't mean spec wars as far as you bringing in the topic. I mean spec wars among companies. Back in the 70s, there was a huge spec war going on between companies with THD and crosstalk measurements just so that they could have bragging rights. This war went on for a good part of the decade until manufacturers realized that money spent on bragging rights was money thrown out as the results were inaudible to begin with below certain measurements which all companies surpassed in spades. ;)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The difference is the Emotiva can't compare with Bryston most likely in warranty services
At at 16.6 X pricing disparity I'll take my chances on the Emotiva past its warranty. The Bryston warranty isn't worth $9,400.

At and itself is beaten by a $300 receiver in terms of inputs and legacy connections...
Legacy connections are called legacy for a reason. Most people don't even use legacy component/composite/s-video any longer

also, no balanced XLR connections to speakers, or an internally balanced design.
Emotiva will have a pre-pro with Balanced output in the $1500 range.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
At at 16.6 X pricing disparity I'll take my chances on the Emotiva past its warranty. The Bryston warranty isn't worth $9,400.

...
Just imagine the reaction if Bryston had a model at the same price as the Emotiva, and with the same warranty as the Emotiva, but they were offering an extended warranty at that price of $9,400, and one will see the absurdity of trying to use the warranty as a justification for the price difference, or any significant part of the price difference.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I am still waiting for a firmware update for the UMC though.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Maybe all this article really does is point out how overpriced some high end gear really is.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
It does show how over priced seperates are in general including the Denons.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Sorry Dude.. My comments weren't directed at you at all. I didn't mean spec wars as far as you bringing in the topic. I mean spec wars among companies. Back in the 70s, there was a huge spec war going on between companies with THD and crosstalk measurements just so that they could have bragging rights. This war went on for a good part of the decade until manufacturers realized that money spent on bragging rights was money thrown out as the results were inaudible to begin with below certain measurements which all companies surpassed in spades. ;)
Oops. Oh, sorry. I think this low-carb diet is adversely affecting me. :eek:

I feel on-edge constantly and get easily perturbed by everyone. :D

We both definitely agree that we can't tell the difference audibly between theses components (minus the bugs :D), especially when EQ/DSP/RC is bypassed. :)

... But from a purely academic and engineering point of view, if I were an Arcam engineer and not a marketing guy, I think I would ask myself how did the Outlaw/Emotiva engineers make such inexpensive components with such great measurements?

If I were an engineer.... Maybe the reason I ask is because I am NOT an engineer?

If I were an engineer, maybe I wouldn't even ask in the first place? :D

PENG looks at those numbers and he's an Electrical Engineer . DenPureSound always looked at those numbers and he was an engineer. :D

If you were an engineer for Arcam or any of these companies, wouldn't you want your child of labor to measure better than Emotiva and Outlaw? :D
 
Last edited:
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
It does show how over priced seperates are in general including the Denons.
It is difficult to argue that some high-priced electronics aren't over-priced. This is especially true with processors, where the nature of the beast means that most circuits will be dependent on off-the-shelf ICs that anyone can buy. That means that most products with those same ICs in them are going to perform rather alike, electrically, unless a circuit designer is incompetent. Some of these high-end pre-pros are also using discrete component line-level output stages for marketability, because non-technical audiophiles often have this weird notion that discrete circuits are superior to ICs. Actually, it is usually the other way around. I suspect that's the reason the Bryston's measurements aren't quite as good.

Having owned both Emotiva and Outlaw products I can say with experience that these value-oriented electronics have very real compromises in them, that are often a PITA. I also suspect that eliminating those compromises would push the price up dramatically, and Outlaw and Emotiva are just making a bet that their target market will tolerate the compromises to keep the price down.

The Emo CD player I bought frustrated me into selling it, and I suspect most of you have read my caveats about the Outlaw 975 in the other thread ADTG started on that pre-pro. These low-priced products are compromised, not necessarily electrically, because they use the same ICs everyone else does, so they measure similarly, but in mechanical parts choices, ergonomics, usability, and system integration and validation. Anyone in product development can tell you it's these things that generally cost the most in the development budget. For example, getting a full-custom remote to fix my issues with the 975 was just beyond Outlaw's budget because of low-volume. Yet the junk $129 Sony BD player I complain about has a remote with near-perfect ergonomics. Bryston, McIntosh, and Krell (to name three high-priced pre-pros) are shipping with full-custom remotes, and I suspect their volumes are lower than Outlaw's, so the product cost of those remotes must be rather high. Factor in dealer mark-ups, far better materials, connectors, and quality control and I'm not so sure that these products are really over-priced, in the sense that someone is getting rich by selling them. I think it's just a case of different priorities, and anyone who thinks $1000 is a lot of money isn't going to think that a McIntosh pre-pro is a good value.
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
I were an Arcam engineer and not a marketing guy, I think I would ask myself how did the Outlaw/Emotiva engineers make such inexpensive components with such great measurements?

If I were an engineer.... Maybe the reason I ask is because I am NOT an engineer?

If I were an engineer, maybe I wouldn't even ask in the first place? :D

PENG looks at those numbers and he's an Electrical Engineer . DenPureSound always looked at those numbers and he was an engineer. :D

If you were an engineer for Arcam or any of these companies, wouldn't you want your child of labor to measure better than Emotiva and Outlaw? :D
Read my last post. They measure similarly because pre-pros are mostly IC-based, and everyone is selecting from common IC technology. If you go with discrete line-level drivers you'll probably end up with worse measurements, though your production costs will be higher.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Read my last post. They measure similarly because pre-pros are mostly IC-based, and everyone is selecting from common IC technology. If you go with discrete line-level drivers you'll probably end up with worse measurements, though your production costs will be higher.
Thank you. Very interesting to me. Yes, I have always been told that discrete circuit is always better than IC.

So the reason the Emo & Outlaw are so similar in measurement is because they both probably use a similar or same IC.

So perhaps the $6K Arcam is discrete? Interesting. Now I know. That makes a lot of sense.

For the record, I would take a $6K Arcam over a $600 Outlaw, Emo, or AVR, even if the Arcam measures worse. :D

I was just fishing for a good engineering reason as opposed to the typical "just because" reason. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Yet the junk $129 Sony BD player I complain about has a remote with near-perfect ergonomics.
You mean the cheap Sony BD that has great iOS & Android remote apps, the same Sony BD that can bitstream SACD DSD and play DTS-HD MA & TrueHD and stream all channels like Netflix & Amazon perfectly in DD5.1 vs my $2000 Denon BD that has the flagship DAC Burr-Brown 1792 & flagship video chip but can't stream anything or do haft the things? :D
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top