$600 EMO pre-pro measures better than $10,000 BRYSTON SP3

[3db]

Oops. Oh, sorry. I think this low-carb diet is adversely affecting me.

I feel on-edge constantly and get easily perturbed by everyone.

Yeah I hear you. Low calorie beer plain sucks!!

We both definitely agree that we can't tell the difference audibly between theses components (minus the bugs ), especially when EQ/DSP/RC is bypassed.

... But from a purely academic and engineering point of view, if I were an Arcam engineer and not a marketing guy, I think I would ask myself how did the Outlaw/Emotiva engineers make such inexpensive components with such great measurements?

If I were an engineer.... Maybe the reason I ask is because I am NOT an engineer?

If I were an engineer, maybe I wouldn't even ask in the first place?

PENG looks at those numbers and he's an Electrical Engineer . DenPureSound always looked at those numbers and he was an engineer.

I'm am electrical engineer as well and there is a cut-off where the race to best specs just doesn't matter any more.

If you were an engineer for Arcam or any of these companies, wouldn't you want your child of labor to measure better than Emotiva and Outlaw?

As an engineer maybe, but as business person, hell no!! . How many Emotiva's are going to be sold compared to that of the Bryston? They make more money on a per unit at Bryston (because of mark-up) than Emotiva but I think sales of the Emotiva will be far greater thus making more money in the long run.

 

[jinjuku]

Having owned both Emotiva and Outlaw products I can say with experience that these value-oriented electronics have very real compromises in them, that are often a PITA. I also suspect that eliminating those compromises would push the price up dramatically, and Outlaw and Emotiva are just making a bet that their target market will tolerate the compromises to keep the price down.

Is this a swipe at IC's? IC's have a few fundamental advantages that discrete circuits have a hard time over coming:

1. Tolerances
2. Driving voltage
3. Noise
4. Reliability

Originally published in the Journal of Musical Instrument Technology #23, 2003

Abstract:

Audio preamplifier circuitry is increasingly used in electric guitars and electric bass guitars. A general preference for circuits built using discrete solid state components vs integrated circuit operational amplifiers appears to be building within the user community for these instruments. A double blind experiment was conducted to determine if users showed a preference between a JFET discrete component preamp and an opamp preamp following a listening evaluation. Results indicate no clear preference for either type.

Mind you this isn't a group of non-audio types. They're musicians.

The Emo CD player I bought frustrated me into selling it

Having to handle CD's would make me sell any CD player regardless of build quality.

 

[Irvrobinson]

You mean the cheap Sony BD that has great iOS & Android remote apps, the same Sony BD that can bitstream SACD DSD and play DTS-HD MA & TrueHD and stream all channels like Netflix & Amazon perfectly in DD5.1 vs my $2000 Denon BD that has the flagship DAC Burr-Brown 1792 & flagship video chip but can't stream anything or do haft the things?

Are you talking about the PITA Sony BD player that loads discs painfully slowly, makes various mechanical noises, takes forever to boot, needs a firmware update more often than Microsoft Windows (okay, I'm kidding, a little bit), and won't stream Netflix and Amazon without dropping the connection every ten minutes, while the Roku streams perfectly? And the same Sony that causes me output level problems with the Outlaw 975, when no other source does? That Sony?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Is this a swipe at IC's?

No, you've misinterpreted my post. I was defending the use of ICs. I think discrete output stages are usually worse than the best ICs.

 

[jinjuku]

No, you're misinterpreted my post. I was defending the use of ICs. I think discrete output stages are usually worse than the best ICs.

Thanks for clarifying. I really wasn't sure and that is why I made sure to ask.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are you talking about the PITA Sony BD player that loads discs painfully slowly, makes various mechanical noises, takes forever to boot, needs a firmware update more often than Microsoft Windows (okay, I'm kidding, a little bit), and won't stream Netflix and Amazon without dropping the connection every ten minutes, while the Roku streams perfectly? And the same Sony that causes me output level problems with the Outlaw 975, when no other source does? That Sony?

Oh, hell no.

My Sony loads up in record times and streams both Netflix (DD+ 5.1) & Amazon (DD 5.1) perfectly AFAIK and has no issues with output levels at all. I have the latest greatest Sony BD models.

I also love the iPad & the Android TV-SideView remote app for the Sony. I use my iPad to control my Denon processors, BD, & HTPC for all music & movies.

 

[3db]

Is this a swipe at IC's? IC's have a few fundamental advantages that discrete circuits have a hard time over coming:

1. Tolerances
2. Driving voltage
3. Noise
4. Reliability

Originally published in the Journal of Musical Instrument Technology #23, 2003

Abstract:

Audio preamplifier circuitry is increasingly used in electric guitars and electric bass guitars. A general preference for circuits built using discrete solid state components vs integrated circuit operational amplifiers appears to be building within the user community for these instruments. A double blind experiment was conducted to determine if users showed a preference between a JFET discrete component preamp and an opamp preamp following a listening evaluation. Results indicate no clear preference for either type.

Mind you this isn't a group of non-audio types. They're musicians.




Having to handle CD's would make me sell any CD player regardless of build quality.

On an amplifier, I prefer discrete output devices over ICs any day because of heat dissipation issues of ICs. In a pre-amp, I would go with ICs for the reasons you have stated. Just choosing the right component for the job.

 

[Irvrobinson]

On an amplifier, I prefer discrete output devices over ICs any day because of heat dissipation issues of ICs. In a pre-amp, I would go with ICs for the reasons you have stated. Just choosing the right component for the job.

You're really thinking of power amp output stages. I was discussing pre-amp, line-level output stages.

 

[slipperybidness]

No, you've misinterpreted my post. I was defending the use of ICs. I think discrete output stages are usually worse than the best ICs.

There is quite a bit of evidence to support this claim.

I still like discreet circuitry, but the ICs are pretty much superior.

For that matter, I still like tube amps, even though I know that SS is superior.

 

[jinjuku]

On an amplifier, I prefer discrete output devices over ICs any day because of heat dissipation issues of ICs. In a pre-amp, I would go with ICs for the reasons you have stated. Just choosing the right component for the job.

I think the context was pre-amp and line level devices.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I still like discreet circuitry, but the ICs are pretty much superior.

For that matter, I still like tube amps, even though I know that SS is superior.

Nothing wrong with that!

 

[Irvrobinson]

There is quite a bit of evidence to support this claim.

I still like discreet circuitry, but the ICs are pretty much superior.

For that matter, I still like tube amps, even though I know that SS is superior.

As a consumer it certainly is your prerogative to buy what you want, but for low-voltage circuits (like anything in a pre-pro) ICs will almost certainly be superior. At the SNRs being discussed in this thread I think the consistent thermal characteristics of the circuits in an IC probably give it a measurable advantage over most discrete alternatives, even surface mount.

 

[3db]

I think the context was pre-amp and line level devices.

I thought I made that point clear.

 

[jinjuku]

I thought I made that point clear.

I agree, not sure why you brought up amps either

 

[3db]

I think the context was pre-amp and line level devices.

I agree, not sure why you brought up amps either

I brought up the point of power amps just to ensure that people reading this thread won't go off thinking that low end AVRs powered by ICs is the way to go. I just wanted to illustrate the point of the right tool for the right job. I'm kinda weird that way.

 

[cpp]

It may not matter to you. But there are other members besides you. Just because you don't give a damn about crosstalk & SNR doesn't mean other members don't give a damn about crosstalk & SNR.

TLS Guy and I (& many other people) don't give a damn about vinyl music either, but you don't see me raining on your vinyl parade.

I think your the only one that loves spec's, I think you sleep with specs leaping through your head.. My question is how do these two products compare in the sound department not spec department.

 

[ichigo]

Not everyone provides their services for the same price. I mean, you can order your computer from CyperpowerPC or Falcon Northwest. Both will use the same internal components, its just one will do custom water cooling solution, use a fancier case and have an automotive gloss hand made finish...and cost you 3 times as much.

The end product you get though will basically perform 99.99% identical.

 

[jinjuku]

Not everyone provides their services for the same price. I mean, you can order your computer from CyperpowerPC or Falcon Northwest. Both will use the same internal components, its just one will do custom water cooling solution, use a fancier case and have an automotive gloss hand made finish...and cost you 3 times as much.

The end product you get though will basically perform 99.99% identical.

Arguably you get something for it:

Case ergonomics for LAN Parties
0dB Cooling (water rigged)
Probably better with video and network lag etc
Stable overclocked CPU/RAM

And it isn't 30 times the price. In comparison it's reasonable and the end audience is better educated.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Ok, for number fun, I looked at the HTM vs AH on the Emo UMC200:

HTM: Crosstalk -94dB 1kHz 100mV Input (? Output) , SNR -128dBA
AH: Crosstalk -100dB 1kHz 200mV Input (1 Vrms Output), SNR -102dBA (-90dB Unweighted)

So the AH measurement gives better Crosstalk by 6dB, but the HTM gives better SNR by by 26dB!

If HTM measures a SNR of -95dBA on the $5K Arcam, does that mean AH would get a SNR close to -69dBA & close to -57dB Unweighted?

Am I even in the same ballpark ?

Thoughts?

 

[PENG]

Ok, for number fun, I looked at the HTM vs AH on the Emo UMC200:

HTM: Crosstalk -94dB 1kHz 100mV Input (? Output) , SNR -128dBA
AH: Crosstalk -100dB 1kHz 200mV Input (1 Vrms Output), SNR -102dBA (-90dB Unweighted)

So the AH measurement gives better Crosstalk by 6dB, but the HTM gives better SNR by by 26dB!

If HTM measures a SNR of -95dBA on the $5K Arcam, does that mean AH would get a SNR close to -69dBA & close to -57dB Unweighted?

Am I even in the same ballpark ?

Thoughts?

The methodology and equipment used in each case may be different. Cross talk also depends a lot on the frequency, if one measures it at 1 kHz and the other at 15 kHz, the numbers would be quite different. As long as cross talk is better than -80 dB, I am not going to focus on something else that matters more. I also guess units that use discrete circuits exclusively, it may take a lot more work/cost to achieve <-100 dB cross talk, but that's just my guess.