4 uls-15 mk2’s vs 4 pb-2000’s

[shadyJ]

The truth comes out in blind tests where people find out just how subjective biases come into play (e.g believing that separates are better or amps sound different) and no one can tell things apart, which is very much true for subs.

In my opinion, the sound 'character' of different subwoofers is vastly over-stated by enthusiasts, so I tend to agree with this. So long as the subs share the same frequency response and are not being driven into significant non-linear distortion, they pretty much sound alike.

 

[shadyJ]

Other than harmonics of 2hz what sub aside from something like a huge number of capable sealed subs or the rotary TRW17 has a shot at actually doing 2hz? Even the 7 hz of the fuckingirene scene in Black Hawk Down is out of reach of most.

Lol any soundmix with 2 Hz in it is surely the result of a mistake on the sound engineer's part. 2 Hz is well below human perception. The only way to directly sense 2 Hz is if its amplitude was so enormous that it started interfering with your breathing, since the compression and rarefaction of the wave are so large. That is well beyond the capability of any sound system.

 

[Auditor55]

So 200ish posts and you randomly jump in and tKe something out of context for no other reason than to split hairs on some stupid definition of what a subwoofer is? We ALL know what a subwoofer is, by definition and so what was your point???

Its not stupid all. The subject of LF applications and subwoofers can be a contentious one. When people use words like "True Subwoofer" and give their own definitions without saying that's what they're doing, it smacks of of arrogance, condescension and elitism. There could be another member of this forum with those same subs that he is declassifying as real subs.

 

[shadyJ]

Really?

Sure, give a higher crossover frequency a shot. It costs you nothing but a little bit of time. If you like that 'punch in the chest' sensation that heavy bass can give you, well the frequency range where that occurs is from 60 Hz to 150 Hz. You'll notice most of that frequency band lays above traditional subwoofer crossover frequency of 80 Hz.

Come Monday I’m ordering 2 vtf3s to start. There not open on weekends, come December if I feel I need (want) 2 more, I’ll order another 2

My guess is you will be pretty happy with 2 VTF-3 mk5s.

 

[Auditor55]

Not necessarily. It depends on personal taste. The Hsu has more output but the SVS has deeper extension. That could go either way for personal taste in movies or music.

What I was getting at was the fact that you wrote how the HSU have more output in those frequencies that are more pronounced in music as opposed to movies, not to say the HSU would not be good for movies. For example, if I had to choose between those two subs and I was primary music lover/listener, based upon what you wrote, I would lean towards the HSU.

 

[Defcon]

Not to get pedantic, but the new SVS subs do not have built-in room correction. They do have a good parametric equalizer onboard, but that isn't quite the same thing. The new Martin-Logan Dynamos and Paradigm Defiance subs do have built-in room correction, as they are compatible with Anthem's Mobile ARC app.

Correct. While it is not a room eq and doesn't integrate with speakers, the fact that is so much simpler to use with its smartphone app will hopefully get more people to use it and fix simple things or at least learn more on the topic. I think some other high end subs like JL etc might also have similar features.

 

[Auditor55]

Exactly man, my preference my opinion. Just like you have your own preferences n opinions. I’m not forcing my own opinions or preferences on someone, that’s bs. I’d give my advice or a suggestion. A true subwoofer should be able to handle n produce quality bass in high n low frequencies not just in one frequency like mine do

OK. It could be you don't have them set up correctly.

 

[Reckel]

OK. It could be you don't have them set up correctly.

Go buy pl200s n tell me how much response you get at the apparent 22hz

 

[lovinthehd]

OK. It could be you don't have them set up correctly.

With his gear how would you do it differently? Offer some help rather than just bitch about it.

 

[Auditor55]

With his gear how would you do it differently? Offer some help rather than just bitch about it.

To be honest, I'm not really trying to tell him what do. I was just objecting to him suggesting that his subs are true subwoofers because they don't meet his performance expectation.

 

[lovinthehd]

To be honest, I'm not really trying to tell him what do. I was just objecting to him suggesting that his subs are true subwoofers because they don't meet his performance expectation.

Yeah that's been real helpful.

 

[Auditor55]

Go buy pl200s n tell me how much response you get at the apparent 22hz

To be honest with you, I don't really care about that range so much. If my music isn't right I'm not going to be happy. So response down to 22 HZ isn't that important me.

 

[Reckel]

To be honest with you, I don't really care about that range so much. If my music isn't right I'm not going to be happy. So response down to 22 HZ isn't that important me.

So you don’t watch movies then and the main thing you care about is music, which is totally fine. I love movies and I listen to music too but mostly movies. So I know wtf I want to hear. You can complain all you want about me saying “true subwoofer” but the fact is that what I have, they’re not performing in both frequencies, just one, the high end. I don’t need a measurement to know where it’s not going, called common sense

 

[Reckel]

With his gear how would you do it differently? Offer some help rather than just bitch about it.

Anyway I can get ahold of you outside of here

 

[Reckel]

Sure, give a higher crossover frequency a shot. It costs you nothing but a little bit of time. If you like that 'punch in the chest' sensation that heavy bass can give you, well the frequency range where that occurs is from 60 Hz to 150 Hz. You'll notice most of that frequency band lays above traditional subwoofer crossover frequency of 80 Hz.

My guess is you will be pretty happy with 2 VTF-3 mk5s.

Can I get ahold of you outside of here

 

[Reckel]

I will agree with that, to a point. IMO blind testing is only as good as it’s operators. Fwiw though I also think content plays a huuuge part, and especially in a blind test. For example, some of the scenes in hacksaw ridge go down to about 2hz iirc. In a blind test with the aforementioned uls, and fv18 I guarantee you’d know which was which.

Able to get ahold of you outside of here?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Lol any soundmix with 2 Hz in it is surely the result of a mistake on the sound engineer's part. 2 Hz is well below human perception. The only way to directly sense 2 Hz is if its amplitude was so enormous that it started interfering with your breathing, since the compression and rarefaction of the wave are so large. That is well beyond the capability of any sound system.

Totally agree. The reason I used that example was because it has content all the way down there, even if it’s not completely intentional, it would show the differences of a sealed sub vs a larger ported one in a blind test.
I live across the Mississippi from a large military training base and have experienced insane pressure waves in my house from some of the bigger explosives. Even from miles away it’s so insane and powerful, albeit for only a couple seconds at a time. I don’t know of a sound system that can do the same thing, but it sure would be cool. And expensive....

 

[Reckel]

Totally agree. The reason I used that example was because it has content all the way down there, even if it’s not completely intentional, it would show the differences of a sealed sub vs a larger ported one in a blind test.
I live across the Mississippi from a large military training base and have experienced insane pressure waves in my house from some of the bigger explosives. Even from miles away it’s so insane and powerful, albeit for only a couple seconds at a time. I don’t know of a sound system that can do the same thing, but it sure would be cool. And expensive....

You see what I sent

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Its not stupid all. The subject of LF applications and subwoofers can be a contentious one. When people use words like "True Subwoofer" and give their own definitions without saying that's what they're doing, it smacks of of arrogance, condescension and elitism. There could be another member of this forum with those same subs that he is declassifying as real subs.

The reason I said it was stupid is because it is. The only reason you said anything about was to split hairs. You know damn well he meant a subwoofer that has significant output below the range of his current ones. The only elitism came from the encyclopedia police. You. And if someone else in the forum has boo boo feewings hurt because someone makes an off the cuff remark about the quality of SOMETHING HE OWNS, too bad. Grow some skin. This isn’t kindergarten, and I’m sure that anyone in the world who buys the bics knows good and well that they’re compromised, and shouldn’t be butt hurt from another owners comments.
Btw, how are your pl200’s?

 

[Auditor55]

So you don’t watch movies then and the main thing you care about is music, which is totally fine. I love movies and I listen to music too but mostly movies. So I know wtf I want to hear. You can complain all you want about me saying “true subwoofer” but the fact is that what I have, they’re not performing in both frequencies, just one, the high end. I don’t need a measurement to know where it’s not going, called common sense

I didn't say I don't watch movies. Anyway, how do you have them placed? It sounds to me what you are describing and dealing with are room modes. Some people attribute boomy bass to a poor performing subs, however placement and or set up could be the problem. See below:

"In an enclosed space sound is reflected by the room's boundaries. At certain frequencies, two or more reflected sound waves can superimpose themselves on one another in such a way where stationary locations can be found where that frequency becomes very loud or very quiet. This is called a mode.
In every enclosed space there's a certain frequency at which the sound field can be divided into two parts. This frequency is called the Schröder frequency. In common living rooms it's about 150–300 Hz.

At higher frequencies, above the Schröder frequency, modes are not a big problem because there are so many. Two ears and a brain are very good in suppressing modes that otherwise would lead to coloration of sound (see Bilsen). Music has a more transient nature at higher frequencies and other effects play a major role: Sound-waves need time to travel through the room (about 34.4 cm per millisecond). If the difference between the direct sound and reflected sound is bigger than about 1 ms then our brain is capable of separating the two. However, up to 30-80ms delay only one sound sensation is perceived (precedence effect). Later arriving reflections are perceived as an echo. If the difference is smaller than 1 ms then the two (or more) sounds are melted into one (summing localization).

At frequencies below the Schröder frequency, modes become a problem. Our hearing needs a couple of cycles before it can determine a sound's timbre but in acoustically small rooms reflections become part of the sound almost instantly because wavelengths are in the range of the room's dimensions (e.g. 40 Hz = 8.6 m wavelength). So what we hear is dominated by the room and not by the loudspeaker anymore.
At lower frequencies there are fewer modes and they are more spaced relative to each other. This commonly leads to the typical sensation of "booming" or "one-note" bass or even no bass at all at certain frequencies. In those cases the in-room frequency response shows stationary peaks (booming sound) and dips (no sound), an effect boosted by rigid walls. Contrary to common belief, angled walls or irregular floor plans do not reduce modes. They just change the modal distribution pattern within a room.

Additional low frequency sound sources distributed throughout the room can smooth out low frequency modal peaks and dips. Fortunately we can't localize sound sources below 80 Hz hence additional subwoofers can be used to smooth the frequency response at any given listening position or over a certain listening area. Studies have shown that only 2 to 4 subwoofers are necessary to significantly reduce seat-to-seat differences and increase frequency smoothness at low frequencies (see Welti/Devantier).