33 RPM Metallica MOFI Original Masters released by WB

D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
So I got MOP, RTL and KEA from the Warner Brothers series mastered by MOFI and thought I would provide some thoughts (hope this hasn't been beaten to death).

Master of Puppets is not only the worst sound I've ever heard on vinyl (even from a noob who buys alot at used stores) - the copy I had also threw the needle off and had a skipping point 3 times in the first track.

Ride the Lightning did not throw off the needle but it was equally as bad. Through headphones it was okay but speakers - no way. Did they mix these for iPod kids? That wouldn't make sense since it's on vinyl but it is very bad (think of the worst sound you can imaging on vinyl - like cranking the treble on a cassette dub of a cassette and turning it up).

Kill Em All played well and actually sounded great/incredible to me. I would recommend this one of all 3. However, due to quality issues I wouldn't recommend any.

I must be a glutton for punishment b/c I ordered the 45 rpm versions before I heard these. I'm kind of bummed as I'm terrified the 45 rpms will be terrible too.

I hope musicdirect will take back RTL and MOP. If not - they lost a customer who has ordered 10 things in the past 2 months.

I don't think the quality here is the fault of MOFI. I recently bought the Allman Bros Idlewild South and it is very good. Please note: Mobile Fidelity did not release these albums - Warner Bros is the release group.

Does anybody have experience with the 45 rpm speed?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
So I got MOP, RTL and KEA from the Warner Brothers series mastered by MOFI and thought I would provide some thoughts (hope this hasn't been beaten to death).

Master of Puppets is not only the worst sound I've ever heard on vinyl (even from a noob who buys alot at used stores) - the copy I had also threw the needle off and had a skipping point 3 times in the first track.

Ride the Lightning did not throw off the needle but it was equally as bad. Through headphones it was okay but speakers - no way. Did they mix these for iPod kids? That wouldn't make sense since it's on vinyl but it is very bad (think of the worst sound you can imaging on vinyl - like cranking the treble on a cassette dub of a cassette and turning it up).

Kill Em All played well and actually sounded great/incredible to me. I would recommend this one of all 3. However, due to quality issues I wouldn't recommend any.

I must be a glutton for punishment b/c I ordered the 45 rpm versions before I heard these. I'm kind of bummed as I'm terrified the 45 rpms will be terrible too.

I hope musicdirect will take back RTL and MOP. If not - they lost a customer who has ordered 10 things in the past 2 months.

I don't think the quality here is the fault of MOFI. I recently bought the Allman Bros Idlewild South and it is very good. Please note: Mobile Fidelity did not release these albums - Warner Bros is the release group.

Does anybody have experience with the 45 rpm speed?
Not so fast buddy. The problems are far more likely than not due to your equipment. Either poor equipment or improperly set up and or maintained equipment.

Before making a post like that, you need to state you turntable, pickup arm and cartridge. Also knowing the tracking forced use, and the approximate number of playing on that cartridge would be helpful.

When a stylus is thrown out of the groove, (severe mistracking), the problem is usually one, or more often a combination of the following.

1). Inadequate stylus force. Best tracking and least record wear is obtained with a tracking force at the upper end of the cartridge manufacturers recommended range.

2). Excessively worn stylus.

3). Mismatch of cartridge weight, compliance and effective tone arm mass, so that the cartridge tone arm resonance is out of the optimal range.

4). Too low a cartridge compliance for the grooves being tracked.

5). Incorrect stylus overhang for minimum tracking error.

6). Insufficient attention to leveling of the turntable.

7). Improper skating force adjustment.

Now that turntables are making a comeback, we a going to see an epidemic of all the ills for which LP reproduction was known for in its hey day.

As I have stated before, turntables unlike digital equipment have greater degrees of improvement as you move up the price scale.

Loud passages with high dynamic and a lot of bass are hard to track.

This used to be particularly true in the classical arena where high dynamics and deep bass including organ pedals on the fortissimos used to cause no end of grief for budget turntables. So much so that there were regular complaints along the lines of yours. Fortunately the major, and minor labels for that matter, turned a deaf ear to the complaints, and mastered to the likes of the high end.

Shure used to issue an audio obstacle course LP. This was designed to sort the wheat from the chaff, and that it did. I still have my copy.

It is interesting that vinyl is making a minimal comeback in the classical arena.

So I suggest your first step is to check the parameters I listed above, and correct any deviations from optimal adjustment.

Now item 3 is commonly misunderstood, but is a common cause of mistracking. The optimal cartridge resonance is around 10 Hz. So a cartridge of higher weight and lower compliance needs a relatively high mass arm. Conversely a cartridge of lower weight and high compliance needs an arm with low effective mass.

Now in these somewhat unbalanced audiophile days there is a strong trend in the high end for moving coil cartridges. These tend to high mass and lower compliance. Arms of the high end have therefore tended to increase in effective mass.

However all things are not equal and I think this trend misguided. The reason: the high mass solution has higher inertia. I think that light weight high compliance cartridges in a low mass arm is the way to go. So I use what I think are the best cartridges of all, the Shure V15 xmr, sadly NLA. The vintage SME series 3 arms are very rigid, and low weight. The Shure V15 xmr in an SME series three arm, will track anything. I think that is as good as it gets for playing the majority of program.

Ortofon have introduced this cartridge as the Shure's closest replacement.

Budget turntables tend to steer a middle course between high and low mass.

In summary, only the best arm cartridge combinations will track highly modulated grooves with deep bass content, many others will be thrown out of the groove. This problem will be severely aggravated if a turntable is not obsessionally set up.

As far as 45 rpm records, I have quite a few and they are fine. The high speed tends to slightly higher fidelity.
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
Pro-Ject Debut III w/ O5 (that came with it)

I have the Pro-Ject Debut III w/ O5 (that came with it).

I don't have any other albums (original Kill Em All and And Justice for All) that toss out the needle. The records came very dirty and scuffed out of the packaging. I've read many others saying the same thing about their copy.

I followed the setup guide for the TT. Is these something that I may be doing wrong?
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
Not so fast buddy. The problems are far more likely than not due to your equipment. Either poor equipment or improperly set up and or maintained equipment.

Before making a post like that, you need to state you turntable, pickup arm and cartridge. Also knowing the tracking forced use, and the approximate number of playing on that cartridge would be helpful.

When a stylus is thrown out of the groove, (severe mistracking), the problem is usually one, or more often a combination of the following.

1). Inadequate stylus force. Best tracking and least record wear is obtained with a tracking force at the upper end of the cartridge manufacturers recommended range.

2). Excessively worn stylus.

3). Mismatch of cartridge weight, compliance and effective tone arm mass, so that the cartridge tone arm resonance is out of the optimal range.

4). Too low a cartridge compliance for the grooves being tracked.

5). Incorrect stylus overhang for minimum tracking error.

6). Insufficient attention to leveling of the turntable.

7). Improper skating force adjustment.

Now that turntables are making a comeback, we a going to see an epidemic of all the ills for which LP reproduction was known for in its hey day.

As I have stated before, turntables unlike digital equipment have greater degrees of improvement as you move up the price scale.

Loud passages with high dynamic and a lot of bass are hard to track.

This used to be particularly true in the classical arena where high dynamics and deep bass including organ pedals on the fortissimos used to cause no end of grief for budget turntables. So much so that there were regular complaints along the lines of yours. Fortunately the major, and minor labels for that matter, turned a deaf ear to the complaints, and mastered to the likes of the high end.

Shure used to issue an audio obstacle course LP. This was designed to sort the wheat from the chaff, and that it did. I still have my copy.

It is interesting that vinyl is making a minimal comeback in the classical arena.

So I suggest your first step is to check the parameters I listed above, and correct any deviations from optimal adjustment.

Now item 3 is commonly misunderstood, but is a common cause of mistracking. The optimal cartridge resonance is around 10 Hz. So a cartridge of higher weight and lower compliance needs a relatively high mass arm. Conversely a cartridge of lower weight and high compliance needs an arm with low effective mass.

Now in these somewhat unbalanced audiophile days there is a strong trend in the high end for moving coil cartridges. These tend to high mass and lower compliance. Arms of the high end have therefore tended to increase in effective mass.

However all things are not equal and I think this trend misguided. The reason: the high mass solution has higher inertia. I think that light weight high compliance cartridges in a low mass arm is the way to go. So I use what I think are the best cartridges of all, the Shure V15 xmr, sadly NLA. The vintage SME series 3 arms are very rigid, and low weight. The Shure V15 xmr in an SME series three arm, will track anything. I think that is as good as it gets for playing the majority of program.

Ortofon have introduced this cartridge as the Shure's closest replacement.

Budget turntables tend to steer a middle course between high and low mass.

In summary, only the best arm cartridge combinations will track highly modulated grooves with deep bass content, many others will be thrown out of the groove. This problem will be severely aggravated if a turntable is not obsessionally set up.

As far as 45 rpm records, I have quite a few and they are fine. The high speed tends to slightly higher fidelity.
I just read another take on the setup and I may me misunderstanding. I will check the playback again tonight and will report back. I have the weight set under 10 when I should have it closer to 20. I will try again with the adjustment. Could this be what is making the sound so bad?
 
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dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
I have the 45rpm releases of KEA and MOP and was not impressed with either of them. They sound flat in the midrange and low end and shrill in the high end. I do blame MOFI, they're the ones that did the re-mastering directly from the analogue tapes. For sure they have some great records, I think the Angel Dust release they did last year sounds fantastic...but the Metallica series leaves MUCH to be desired.

I am going to find an old pressing of Kill 'Em All on vinyl to compare...because currently the CD version sounds more pleasing to my ears. The mix is just BAAAAAD!

Tom Port reviewed the 45rpm Ride The Lightning and had this to say:
http://www.dccblowout.com/product.aspx?pf_id=metalridet_debunk

Sonic Grade: F

Compressed, sucked-out mids, no deep bass and muddy mid-bass, the mastering of this album is an absolute disaster on every level. If you want to know how clueless the average audiophile is a quick Google search will bring up plenty of positive comments from listeners and reviewers alike.

This is the Warner Brothers 45 RPM 180g Double LP Half-Speed Mastered at Mobile Fidelity from the original analog master tapes.
I am listening on a Goldring GR-2 with a Goldring 1012GX cartridge with about 40 hours on it, Parasound Zphono pre-amp, turntable set-up by Rega/Goldring dealer. I believe the set-up to be proper based on how amazing numerous other records of all weights sound in my collection.

Never had a groove throw my needle though, that might be a manufacturing defect in your particular copy? I had a Simply Vinyl copy of Jeff Buckley's "Grace" that wouldn't let the stylus past the end of the song "Grace", it just skipped every time. The rest of the record was pristine. The dealer swapped it for another copy and the problem was solved. I don't expect much is going to help these Metallica remasters though.
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
Response

I have the 45rpm releases of KEA and MOP and was not impressed with either of them. They sound flat in the midrange and low end and shrill in the high end. I do blame MOFI, they're the ones that did the re-mastering directly from the analogue tapes. For sure they have some great records, I think the Angel Dust release they did last year sounds fantastic...but the Metallica series leaves MUCH to be desired.

I am going to find an old pressing of Kill 'Em All on vinyl to compare...because currently the CD version sounds more pleasing to my ears. The mix is just BAAAAAD!

Tom Port reviewed the 45rpm Ride The Lightning and had this to say:
http://www.dccblowout.com/product.aspx?pf_id=metalridet_debunk



I am listening on a Goldring GR-2 with a Goldring 1012GX cartridge with about 40 hours on it, Parasound Zphono pre-amp, turntable set-up by Rega/Goldring dealer. I believe the set-up to be proper based on how amazing numerous other records of all weights sound in my collection.

Never had a groove throw my needle though, that might be a manufacturing defect in your particular copy? I had a Simply Vinyl copy of Jeff Buckley's "Grace" that wouldn't let the stylus past the end of the song "Grace", it just skipped every time. The rest of the record was pristine. The dealer swapped it for another copy and the problem was solved. I don't expect much is going to help these Metallica remasters though.
I have Angel Dust and that is awesome as well. My copy of this new Kill Em All is pretty great actually. I say I don't blame Mofi b/c I truly believe if there is a problem it is with the pressing. I'm going to check in tomorrow after I adjust my counterweight but have my doubts b/c of other things I've read.

I owe it to myself to give it one more shot before confirming my gripes here and complaining. I am mentally in the same boat as you (as all of my other albums sound amazing and never skip/throw the needle off or repeat). Maybe these editions have thicker bass and the incorrect counterweight setting would effect a recording like this more.

I promise to check in tomorrow and really hope I'm wrong. I also have the 45rpms on the way and will check in on their quality vs. the 33.
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
Ajfa

One more thing - My 1988 copy of And Justice for All sounds incredible but there is 1 repeat spot I discovered. I have original of Kill Em All and it is great.

I don't think it is MOFI b/c all of their other releases (on their actual label) are so strong. Why would they drop the ball on this? Also note - it is not release on Mobile Fidelity: it is a Warner Brothers release. MOFI only remastered.
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
Well I have lots of other 12" 45's and nothing sounds like these Metallica's.

If you read Tom Port's opinions there is plenty of stuff coming out from MOFI that sounds like this, so much so that he actually identifies it as the MOFI sound and believes that good pressings are an aberration, not the norm.

He says that the Geffen pressings of Nevermind absolutely smoke the MOFI release and the SV release for the most part. There's nothing wrong with the actual pressing in my opinion, both MOP and KEA are whisper quiet and gorgeous pieces of vinyl that just aren't sonic gems.
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
Well I have lots of other 12" 45's and nothing sounds like these Metallica's.

If you read Tom Port's opinions there is plenty of stuff coming out from MOFI that sounds like this, so much so that he actually identifies it as the MOFI sound and believes that good pressings are an aberration, not the norm.

He says that the Geffen pressings of Nevermind absolutely smoke the MOFI release and the SV release for the most part. There's nothing wrong with the actual pressing in my opinion, both MOP and KEA are whisper quiet and gorgeous pieces of vinyl that just aren't sonic gems.

I just got a brand new copy of an Allman Bros from MOFI and it is great - dead quiet, great sound. Also - we both agree Angel Dust is great.


I also just got an EU pressing of Nevermind 424-425-1 and it sounds good but certainly doesn't have the depth of old Zeppelin or even the And Justice for All that I got from 98. The Nevermind Geffen sounds more like a CD. I'd love to hear the MOFI pressing of Nevermind but it's way out of my price range. I've been contacting sellers on eBay offering less but they won't take it.
 
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dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
My friend Scott here in St. Catharines has one that he let me play last year.
It sounded pretty awesome, but I haven't heard any of the other pressings and I've only ever listened to the CD to compare it to which isn't saying much. I am sure whenever I pick up a Geffen pressing (it might not even be the European one that the hot stampers come from, I notice Geffen did a US pressing as well in 91) he'll let me compare the two.

The Simply Vinyl ones are nowhere near as much as the MOFI on eBay and I usually find their offerings are terrific. I've picked up the following SV's and enjoy them all:

Stone Roses - Fools Gold 12"
Stone Roses - She Bangs The Drums 12"
Phil Collins - No Jacket Required
Mike Oldfield - Ommadawn
Underworld - dubnobasswithmyheadman
James - Gold Mother
Portishead - Dummy

There's a sealed copy of Nevermind for $28 - http://www.discogs.com/sell/list?release_id=504129&ev=rb

I am still not sold on the 1/2 speed mastering though as most of the best sounding records I have in my collection are neither 180g nor 1/2 speed mastered. Certainly there's no argument about the package you receive with MOFI, it's always well-pressed virgin vinyl and sweet sleeves.

EDIT - no it wasn't the US pressing he was talking about, I found this older commentary regarding Nevermind.
http://www.dccblowout.com/product.aspx?pf_id=nirvanever_0209

Everything Else Sucks

The MOFI gold CD sucks. The Simply Vinyl LP sucks. The original domestic LP sucks. They are all thin, bright and consequently harsh -- utterly inappropriate for music like this that requires prodigious amounts of bass. This import is the first and only version that sounds the way it should: PERFECT. (I don't own an Anadisq to audition. The chances of MOFI mastering this record properly are pretty small in my admittedly prejudiced opinion.)

And don't you find it curious that the best of the rock bunch from 2001 is on thin vinyl?
Of course he sells the best copies for $300 too, which I'm not willing to spend just yet on a hot stamper until I actually have lots of spare cash versus where I am currently which is in debt thanks to Onkyo, Paradigm, Goldring, etc.
 
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D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
My friend Scott here in St. Catharines has one that he let me play last year.
It sounded pretty awesome, but I haven't heard any of the other pressings and I've only ever listened to the CD to compare it to which isn't saying much. I am sure whenever I pick up a Geffen pressing (it might not even be the European one that the hot stampers come from, I notice Geffen did a US pressing as well in 91) he'll let me compare the two.

The Simply Vinyl ones are nowhere near as much as the MOFI on eBay and I usually find their offerings are terrific. I've picked up the following SV's and enjoy them all:

Stone Roses - Fools Gold 12"
Stone Roses - She Bangs The Drums 12"
Phil Collins - No Jacket Required
Mike Oldfield - Ommadawn
Underworld - dubnobasswithmyheadman
James - Gold Mother
Portishead - Dummy

There's a sealed copy of Nevermind for $28 - http://www.discogs.com/sell/list?release_id=504129&ev=rb

I am still not sold on the 1/2 speed mastering though as most of the best sounding records I have in my collection are neither 180g nor 1/2 speed mastered. Certainly there's no argument about the package you receive with MOFI, it's always well-pressed virgin vinyl and sweet-*** sleeves.
I've heard mixed reviews on the SV but will check it out. They have a shop with a new Nevermind for $15. Also - type in SV - Metallica (w/ the spaces) and a dude has clips he burned from vinyl, to cd then to mp3. Sounds meaty for Mp3 - My Ride the lightning sounds nothing like that.

I will definitely check in tomorrow with a follow up on the quality once I make some adjustments.
 
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dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
Yeah you might want to read my EDIT before going for the Simply Vinyl Nevermind as well as the negative comments you've already heard elsewhere...but certainly the pressings I have are all beauts.

The Universal repressing of In Utero I am NOT at all impressed with.
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
The Results Are In....

I made all of the proper adjustments and have basically come to the same conclusion. Please note - this is the 33 rpm version.

Master of Puppets has "skips" where it repeats the same part until I pick up the needle and move it past. The sound would be okay on this version if the skipping wasn't here. It's tough to get into it w/ this type of thing happening. The other thing is - this one and RTL were very scuffed up and dirty (MOP in particular). I'm talking about not being able to remove with cleaning scuffs. Deep scuffs that cause skips.

Ride the Lightning plays through fine but sounds terrible (i have to crank the bass to 8 or 9 to get something playable but still bad).

Kill Em All - plays fine and sounds great to me. This is the one I would recommend so far.

I'm going to see if MusicDirect will allow me to swap for a new copy of each. The 45 rpm version of the first 4 records is on its way as well. I will compare each one to the original and send an update.

Being a noob - there were originally some incorrect settings on my TT. The fixes have been placed and I'm disappointed that the results are the same.

The original AJFA sounds amazing on this turntable.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I made all of the proper adjustments and have basically come to the same conclusion. Please note - this is the 33 rpm version.

Master of Puppets has "skips" where it repeats the same part until I pick up the needle and move it past. The sound would be okay on this version if the skipping wasn't here. It's tough to get into it w/ this type of thing happening. The other thing is - this one and RTL were very scuffed up and dirty (MOP in particular). I'm talking about not being able to remove with cleaning scuffs. Deep scuffs that cause skips.

Ride the Lightning plays through fine but sounds terrible (i have to crank the bass to 8 or 9 to get something playable but still bad).

Kill Em All - plays fine and sounds great to me. This is the one I would recommend so far.

I'm going to see if MusicDirect will allow me to swap for a new copy of each. The 45 rpm version of the first 4 records is on its way as well. I will compare each one to the original and send an update.

Being a noob - there were originally some incorrect settings on my TT. The fixes have been placed and I'm disappointed that the results are the same.

The original AJFA sounds amazing on this turntable.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I think you entitled to pressings without scuffs. Make sure you have the correct tracking force, and that it is at the upper end of the cartridge specification.
 
dobyblue

dobyblue

Senior Audioholic
If the scuffs are causing skipping or can be felt with your hands then it's a bad pressing, manufacturing defect. There's no reason for that. There's nothing wrong with swirls and variations in the vinyl when you hold it to the light that are part of the pigmentation, but if you can feel it it's not normal.

MOFI pressed the Faith No More vinyl at RTI according to an e-mail I received yesterday. They said they have no idea where WB pressed theirs. However a look at RTI's website lists WB as a client as well as many others.

http://www.recordtech.com/customers.htm

I think that the 45rpm series that's on its way will hopefully provide better playback and shouldn't skip at all. However I think you're still going to be disappointed sonically. I am probably just going to list mine on eBay for $19.99/each in hopes of selling them, then I'm just going to track down some older pressings in NM~M condition, which I'm sure can be had for around 10~15 each. It's a shame, because everything about these 45rpm series remasters other than the sound is freakin' awesome.
 
D

Deeds

Audioholic Intern
If the scuffs are causing skipping or can be felt with your hands then it's a bad pressing, manufacturing defect. There's no reason for that. There's nothing wrong with swirls and variations in the vinyl when you hold it to the light that are part of the pigmentation, but if you can feel it it's not normal.

MOFI pressed the Faith No More vinyl at RTI according to an e-mail I received yesterday. They said they have no idea where WB pressed theirs. However a look at RTI's website lists WB as a client as well as many others.

http://www.recordtech.com/customers.htm

I think that the 45rpm series that's on its way will hopefully provide better playback and shouldn't skip at all. However I think you're still going to be disappointed sonically. I am probably just going to list mine on eBay for $19.99/each in hopes of selling them, then I'm just going to track down some older pressings in NM~M condition, which I'm sure can be had for around 10~15 each. It's a shame, because everything about these 45rpm series remasters other than the sound is freakin' awesome.
The original pressing of AJFA that I have is great. I may try to get another (as one of them crackles alot). MOP and RTL original pressings are on the way and I cannot wait. I have the ability to do needle drops (maybe I can send them).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I just read another take on the setup and I may me misunderstanding. I will check the playback again tonight and will report back. I have the weight set under 10 when I should have it closer to 20. I will try again with the adjustment. Could this be what is making the sound so bad?
I think you have a misunderstanding of correct tracking force. I have just noticed this post!

Tracking forces in the 10 to 20 GM range will ruin your discs. Depending on the cartridge, tracking forces will be in the 1 to 3.5 GM range. For most it is between 1 and 2.5 GM. As I said set the cartridge's to the upper end of the cartridges, tracking force range.
 
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