2022, Current top 5 most competent full range speakers in budget/mid/high-end ranges?

[TLS Guy]

Again this is a thread playing the F3 game.

This is a bad way to choose speakers.

You have to consider power output and bass quality. The manufacturers know that people play the F3 game, but that is a very, very poor way to choose a speaker, especially if it is in the so called "affordable" class.

As we have discussed before there is an inverse relationship between bass extension and efficiency. So that means that either sound output is decreased or a more powerful robust and therefore expensive driver has to be selected. In addition it leads to choosing poorer extended bass alignments with high Qt.

A speaker with extended high quality bass is going to be expensive, and you have to be suspicious of it, if it isn't. A truly full range speaker that can deliver that range at concert levels is a formidable affair and therefore expensive.

So if you don't want to break the bank, then a speaker with an f3 around 40 Hz or so coupled with a sub is actually a cost effective solution. Power amps for subs are now relatively cheap. You can use larger drivers, that will handle the power, and there is no passive crossover to get you into trouble.

Powerful truly full range integrated speakers are far and few between and very expensive. To be really effective they absolutely have to be active designs, at least in the bass decades.

Finally a full range speaker that can not also make provision for handling the LFE signal has a very limited market. So paying a lot of money for a full range speaker and then have to add a sub for the LFE is just a waste, and frankly nuts.

I think you will see the trend to active speakers really start to pick up speed. At the top end of the market they will be potent, and integrate the LFE channel.

This will bring about a quantum improvement in sound quality, as among other things it will solve the time shifts of analog crossovers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Emphasis on full range, ie, no subwoofer involved. Most likely these will be floor standing speakers or simply larger cabinet speakers (even if a bookshelf class).

I would expect the speaker to be able to get close to 30hz or at least 40hz or so without too much struggle

You mean be able to play 30Hz at 80dB or 100dB?

Some bookshelf and smaller speakers can play down to 30Hz, but not at 100dB.

I see that TLS Guy talks about this output (volume, dB). There is no replacement for displacement (Cabinet size, driver size, number of drivers, types of drivers). Smaller drivers and less of them isn’t going to be able to keep up with much bigger multiple drivers and cabinets.

 

[MalVeauX]

You mean be able to play 30Hz at 80dB or 100dB?

Some bookshelf and smaller speakers can play down to 30Hz, but not at 100dB.

I see that TLS Guy talks about this output (volume, dB). There is no replacement for displacement (Cabinet size, driver size, number of drivers, types of drivers). Smaller drivers and less of them isn’t going to be able to keep up with much bigger multiple drivers and cabinets.

Just keeping it real world. 75~85db is pretty good for most people's listening SPL. If something can get close to that in the near 30hz range, it should be fair as a nearly full range speaker (again depends on definition of full range means with given benchmarks becoming exceedingly difficult and complex and costly to go lower than 30~40hz in each bracket described). Can't really put a max value on this, not expecting 105db. But the goal would at least be able to hear 30hz give or take.

Right, there's no argument with what TLS is saying at all. There are just imposed limits to keep this interesting (not just another what speakers + sub thread). The topic really is centered on full range speakers, stereo, with no external giant cabinet subwoofer. Nothing against subs, I'm an admitted basshead, I have many subs, but it's just fun to escape our box once in a while. But the speakers themselves can be huge cabinets. It's very clear and we all agree that a good bookshelf and a sub will be a full range experience, and that many are doing just that in a modular or single cabinet. That's fine if it's a single cabinet. Just trying to keep it interesting and simple (yet hard on the speaker actually especially in the lower bracket prices) to not use a subwoofer. Yes it's limited. Yes there's compromise. But again, its a fun exercise to see what's out there that can be picked up for stereo and be full range with 2 speakers and fit into some arbitrary pricing brackets as described.

Anyhow, again this is just an exercise in fun with some imposed limits (2 channel, 2 speakers, no subs, near full range or truly full range). A classic stereo setup. If you had to just use two speakers for everything, what are the top 5 full range speakers you'd want to choose from in various price brackets. Just meant to be for fun, not a reference.

Very best,

 

[MalVeauX]

I was wondering as the list price on the 590s is $2k/pr, the $900 or $800 pr prices are available on occasion, but does that mean we always go to best sale or negotiated price elsewhere and how do we know what that is? Personally having the 590s and obtained on a good deal, still wouldn't particularly call them budget compared to some others.....

(like the RBH pricing which between list and able to be negotiated seems to have a huge difference)

It's a good question. I would think it's actually available to someone shopping, then it passes. That's why used deals are not an option despite having tons of potential value, or saying to find a used but discontinued series, etc. I think sale prices, especially common sales that are annual, are ok. For example, the JBL Studios get lots of attention, but would they get nearly as much attention if it were not for the deep sales they do annually? It's not a rare sale at all these days.

And yea, things like the RBH pricing being listed at $17~25k but could be had for under 50%? If that's an option for everyone shopping, sure, but if it's a single dealer or a one-off thing due to circumstances, that's not something that just anyone can benefit from at any given time. I'm all ears though, if that's not the case.

But yea I think common and accessible sale prices are fine since it's a commercial sale and not like a used deal.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

Some other barrel scrapes that I am curious about to help fill in any potential options in the lowest categories (hard to find reviews or measurements for budget stuff):

New Polk XT70 ($350 each, 2x 8" drivers, 2x 6.5" drivers, tweeter, looks like a lot in a cheap package, has to be a low end speaker, it's new, don't even see it talked about, maybe its a Monitor series replacement?)

Here at AH: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/polk-monitor-xt

Fluance Signature Hifi 3-Way ($850 a pair, 8 inch woofers; I think this has been reviewed a bit and basically was just an ok speaker, but I don't expect crazy from that price range of course).

Here at AH: https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/fluance-signature-series-three-way

Just trying to find some other things under $1k for budget brackets to see if anyone knows anything, listened to them, real measurements available, etc.

Very best,

 

[Pogre]

And yea, things like the RBH pricing being listed at $17~25k but could be had for under 50%? If that's an option for everyone shopping, sure, but if it's a single dealer or a one-off thing due to circumstances, that's not something that just anyone can benefit from at any given time. I'm all ears though, if that's not the case.

The dealer I contacted is still available, as I am sure are the discounted prices. They might not be as deeply discounted as they were last year, but I'm confident still heavily discounted compared to list pricing.

Honestly I was quite surprised to find out discounts like that were available. I think this is a case of RBH's "suggested msrp" vs real world cost. I do agree average Joe surfing the web looking at prices would not be aware of any discounts tho and likely pass over the SVTR as it lists.

 

[MalVeauX]

The dealer I contacted is still available, as I am sure are the discounted prices. They might not be as deeply discounted as they were last year, but I'm confident still heavily discounted compared to list pricing.

Honestly I was quite surprised to find out discounts like that were available. I think this is a case of RBH's "suggested msrp" vs real world cost. I do agree average Joe surfing the web looking at prices would not be aware of any discounts tho and likely pass over the SVTR as it lists.

Hey if it's repeatable for someone else, then it passes I would say. I'm sure things are different compared to 3~4 years ago. And yea, all MSRP listings are what they are, a dealer can sometimes change things but may not legally be allowed to list it. That's fine as long as anyone can get access to the deal.

Very best,

 

[Pogre]

Hey if it's repeatable for someone else, then it passes I would say. I'm sure things are different compared to 3~4 years ago. And yea, all MSRP listings are what they are, a dealer can sometimes change things but may not legally be allowed to list it. That's fine as long as anyone can get access to the deal.

Very best,

I could put you in contact with said dealer easily. In fact you probably know him from these very forums.

 

[MalVeauX]

I could put you in contact with said dealer easily. In fact you probably know him from these very forums.

All good, I know what you mean. Not shopping at the moment, this thread is more about the fun of the stipulations. I'm rather happy with my current stereo setup. It's just fun to explore what options there are now, in 2022, and not just another best X for $Y with no other parameters. Taking the sub away puts a lot more emphasis on the total speaker design and makes for a challenging setup, yet a classic one. And then break it up into price brackets so everyone has a chance to be included from the lowest budget to no limits practically. I'm still nostalgic from the 70's and 80's stereos I grew up with, none of them had subs, they were all big floor standing speakers. I don't think any of them hit 30hz ever, lol. But 40 years later, things change of course with tech.

Very best,

 

[Kleinst]

Yea, sorry, a joke. Shoe collecting and trading is a multi-million dollar industry now. Crazy stupid. Pristine old Jordans from the 90's for example, just look it up and you'll just be gobsmacked people are spending money on shoes just to put on a shelf.

As for how one buys their toys, there's no right or wrong way. Doesn't matter if it's all cash or financed in some way. Either way that person signing up for that expense. Mostly just picked brackets based on what you tend to see. When someone joins a forum and is looking to get into audio let alone upgrade, how often are they saying their budget is over $10k?

Very best,

Just buying stuff like shoes to put on your shelf? What idiot would do that?

Wait, I just did that with an amp... Hmm...

 

[Pogre]

All good, I know what you mean. Not shopping at the moment, this thread is more about the fun of the stipulations. I'm rather happy with my current stereo setup. It's just fun to explore what options there are now, in 2022, and not just another best X for $Y with no other parameters. Taking the sub away puts a lot more emphasis on the total speaker design and makes for a challenging setup, yet a classic one. I'm still nostalgic from the 70's and 80's stereos I grew up with, none of them had subs, they were all big floor standing speakers. I don't think any of them hit 30hz ever, lol. But 40 years later, things change of course with tech.

Very best,

Oh for sure, I'm having fun participating and looking for speakers that fit the criteria.

 

[MalVeauX]

Just buying stuff like shoes to put on your shelf? What idiot would do that?

Wait, I just did that with an amp... Hmm...

Yea, it's a thing. Dudes with shoe closets. There's apps just for selling/buying cycle release shoes. None of them are particularly nice shoes, made of exotic leather, hand stitched, etc, like some ultra nice loafers, etc. They're all just hiphop or street or basketball sneakers that were made for 10~25 cent in a crumby factory and sold for hundreds in First World countries and then collected and put on display like glorified trash.

But anyways, not trying to drive another direction with politics of that. It's just one of those silly things. Anyone who can say they cannot afford $1k speakers but love audio but are walking around in $300 Nikes and have the latest iPhone are just confusing the misnomer of `afford' and `priority.'

Personally from some experience and good metrics and reviews as influence, it seems that $2k is about the sweet spot for anything in audio at least right now, be it a solid pair of speakers, a sub, or a piece of source hardware. And going above that gets you something but not a whole lot for the increase. It's easy to talk about $10k+ stuff too. But don't to leave out sub-$1k stuff, at least, in the context of this discussion.

Very best,

 

[Pogre]

Sticking to the criteria I'd have to say for the money the SVS Ultra towers make a pretty damned good account of themselves. I was able to dial them in flat to 20 hz in room. Well... sorta flat, lol. That's where my subs came in. The speakers were pretty capable, but not as easy to dial in or move around to find the best spot for bass. The flexibility of the subs helped a lot with linearity and added that last little sub-20 hz weight and depth.

 

[MalVeauX]

Sticking to the criteria I'd have to say for the money the SVS Ultra towers make a pretty damned good account of themselves. I was able to dial them in flat to 20 hz in room. Well... sorta flat, lol. That's where my subs came in. The speakers were pretty capable, but not as easy to dial in or move around to find the best spot for bass. The flexibility of the subs helped a lot with linearity and added that last little sub-20 hz weight and depth.

I would think the SVS Ultra Tower would be a speaker for someone who is not using a subwoofer. Realistically, if using subs, the crossover would greatly overlap and vastly outperform the Ultra's 8 inch woofer doing that job if receiving a full range signal. So if using it with a sub and crossover, as most probably are, its basically being used as a bookshelf with a big cabinet but not a full range speaker. On it's own, its a full range speaker with its built in 8 inch woofer for that purpose. That leads to wondering why get the Ultra towers at all, if using a sub, instead of the Ultra bookshelves. But the Ultra Towers on their own meet criteria and are in that mid-tier range.

Very best,

 

[Pogre]

I would think the SVS Ultra Tower would be a speaker for someone who is not using a subwoofer. Realistically, if using subs, the crossover would greatly overlap and vastly outperform the Ultra's 8 inch woofer doing that job if receiving a full range signal. So if using it with a sub and crossover, as most probably are, its basically being used as a bookshelf with a big cabinet but not a full range speaker. On it's own, its a full range speaker with its built in 8 inch woofer for that purpose. That leads to wondering why get the Ultra towers at all, if using a sub, instead of the Ultra bookshelves. But the Ultra Towers on their own meet criteria and are in that mid-tier range.

Very best,

For me I just wanted towers. Period. No real logical reason aside from I like it loud, I have the room, already had the Ultra books and always wanted towers.

Sometimes the things we do just don't make a lot of sense, but by golly they sure looked awesome and intimidating in my living room!

 

[MalVeauX]

For me I just wanted towers. Period. No real logical reason aside from I like it loud, I have the room, already had the Ultra books and always wanted towers.

Sometimes the things we do just don't make a lot of sense, but by golly they sure looked awesome and intimidating in my living room!

Same, I have mostly towers. I prefer the look but I also like not fooling with stands (bookshelf on a stand is taking the same if not more footprint than a tower) and I like the ability to have the higher sensitivity afforded by a larger cabinet volume. Plus I don't always want a sub blasting, so it's nice to have more extension into bass with a tower.

And even better if it's a competent full range tower!

Very best,

 

[Swerd]

When you compare speakers by dividing them into different price ranges, you must keep in mind that the two different methods for selling speakers, Distributors & Dealers (D&D) vs. Internet Direct (ID), result in quite different list prices and profit margins.

With D&D, there are price mark ups going from manufacturer-to-distributor, and again from distributor-to-dealer. Those mark ups can vary widely. I've learned over the years to expect at least a 50% mark up just at the dealer level. That means a dealer sells speakers for roughly double his cost from the distributor. A dealer has to lease or own a store and pay employees, all while making enough to stay in business. Of course, all these transfers include shipping costs – something that never goes down. If I can generalize, the D&D method tends to favor large manufacturers with large distribution networks, and large big box stores. There can be price advantages due to large scale manufacturing.

With ID, there is one transaction, from the manufacturer to the individual buyer. The D&D mark-ups are eliminated. The buyer has to pay shipping costs for the finished product only once. The result is that the individual buyer pays less as overall profit, and gets more speaker for his money. There can be disadvantages to this method, such as difficulty in hearing speakers before buying, longer delays from ordering to delivery, and the lack of price advantages from large scale manufacturing. But the overall lower prices you get with ID cannot be ignored. To generalize again, the ID method tends to favor smaller manufacturers over large ones. With D&D you never deal with a speaker manufacturer or designer. With many, if not all, ID companies, you can easily speak directly to the owner or designer.

If you compare speakers by price levels, without distinguishing between D&D or ID sales methods, you're comparing Apples to Oranges.

 

[MalVeauX]

When you compare speakers by dividing them into different price ranges, you must keep in mind that the two different methods for selling speakers, Distributors & Dealers (D&D) vs. Internet Direct (ID), result in quite different list prices and profit margins.

With D&D, there are price mark ups going from manufacturer-to-distributor, and again from distributor-to-dealer. Those mark ups can vary widely. I've learned over the years to expect at least a 50% mark up just at the dealer level. That means a dealer sells speakers for roughly double his cost from the distributor. A dealer has to lease or own a store and pay employees, all while making enough to stay in business. Of course, all these transfers include shipping – something that never goes down. If I can generalize, the D&D method tends to favor large manufacturers with large distribution networks, and large big box stores. There can be price advantages due to large scale manufacturing.

With ID, there is one transaction, from the manufacturer to the individual buyer. The distributor and dealer mark-ups are eliminated. The buyer has to pay shipping costs for the finished product only once. The result is that the individual buyer pays less as overall profit, and gets more speaker for his money. There can be disadvantages to this method, such as difficulty in hearing speakers before buying, longer delays from ordering to delivery, and the lack of price advantages from large scale manufacturing. But the overall lower prices you get with ID cannot be ignored. To generalize again, the ID method tends to favor smaller manufacturers over large ones. With D&D you never deal with a speaker manufacturer or designer. With many, if not all, ID companies, you can easily speak directly to the owner or designer.

If you compare speakers by price levels, without distinguishing between D&D or ID sales methods, you're comparing Apples to Oranges.

While I agree with that, surely the ID will offer more value than a big box store price, the bottom line is a speaker series availability to a buyer. I think splitting it into further categories just makes it pretty polarized because a big box store speaker would essentially have no place since an ID company's offering in similar price range would be a superior value in most cases. So the end result is all the top 5 options for a category like that would just be ID offerings essentially. Doesn't change the idea of wanting to know what is out there that can do the job, whether it's a lower value big box store speaker or an ID speaker. Right? Basically it is what it is. If the best offerings for cost are ID, then that will dominate the top 5. It's still just looking for what is available in various price brackets, regardless of source, that fulfill the full range no-sub stereo criteria.

Very best,

 

[Swerd]

While I agree with that, surely the ID will offer more value than a big box store price, the bottom line is a speaker series availability to a buyer. I think splitting it into further categories just makes it pretty polarized because a big box store speaker would essentially have no place since an ID company's offering in similar price range would be a superior value in most cases. So the end result is all the top 5 options for a category like that would just be ID offerings essentially. Doesn't change the idea of wanting to know what is out there that can do the job, whether it's a lower value big box store speaker or an ID speaker. Right?

I don't agree at all.

I value ID over D&D not only for the large price advantages – but also because I never have to go to a dealership. I have suffered from both large and small dealerships, and I never want to do business with them, or even visit them, again.

 

[MalVeauX]

I don't agree at all.

I value ID over D&D not only for the large price advantages – but also because I never have to go to a dealership. I have suffered from both large and small dealerships, and I never want to do business with them, or even visit them, again.

All good, it's excellent to have options. We didn't have this option growing up, but we do now. It's a game changer for sure.

Your case sounds significantly jaded. Quite absolute. A shame.

It's ok to disagree. I value your input regardless. There are plenty of people who will not buy ID for whatever reasons and don't care to ever do anything other buy Klipsch from BestBuy. I'm not going to shun them just based on premise. That's not my jam at all. This just gets too personal into someone's politics, anecdotal experience with culture and just doesn't go anywhere useful frankly.

But from your line of thinking, one would never know of quite a lot of excellent speakers that have value. That would be shame. So yea, too personal I think.

So fruit salad it is.

Very best,

 

[Eppie]

Good thread. So many posts in a day and half. Makes it hard to add something new.

If I was starting fresh, I would be looking at BMR towers, Ascends or Salks (like mentioned previously). TLS Guy has often mentioned the benefits of transmission line designs.

I like the way Paradigm voices their speakers, but the 100F has usable bass only down to around 40Hz (Shady's test showed that it rolls off pretty steady below 70Hz) so not sure that it qualifies as full range. The 120F with the powered woofers is full range, but we're talking over $8000 U.S. then.

The JBL HDI however will get down to 30Hz with a little more authority than the 100F. I auditioned a pair of HDI-3600 (Shady reviewed the 3800) and really liked them. I would add the JBL HDI towers to the list.

On the higher end I would really like to hear a pair of Revel F228Be, still regarded by many as one of the better speakers in the $10,000 range, and the Focal Kanta No.2 would be on my list as well.

I agree that $2000+ seems to be the starting point. The only exception appears to be the JBL Studio which offers great value when on sale.