2010 Audioholics $1k Floorstanding Loudspeaker Faceoff

[tsteves]

Good point. It has been awhile though, 2007. Full ranges are great for stereo listening, but trickier to use with a Sub. Most people have a hard time integrating subs with full range speakers, especially those with less accurate full range speakers. Both scenarios have tradeoffs - with full ranges with a sub or small speakers with a sub, when to use 80Hz cuttoff, when not to, bass management choices, etc, it's far less complicated for a lot of people to just leave things set as is, and not have to worry about changing settings, or getting all those bass drivers working together properly in the room without cancellations, etc. I use my Magnepans full range only for stereo, otherwise I use my SVS sub for movies. Most people don't want to be bothered with this sort of thing I would think.
My main point is I hope they can get more manufacturers involved! I think if more people have really nice speakers like your Salks, the more happy people there will be!

 

[DLeague]

Good point. It has been awhile though, 2007. Full ranges are great for stereo listening, but trickier to use with a Sub. Most people have a hard time integrating subs with full range speakers, especially those with less accurate full range speakers. Both scenarios have tradeoffs - with full ranges with a sub or small speakers with a sub, when to use 80Hz cuttoff, when not to, bass management choices, etc, it's far less complicated for a lot of people to just leave things set as is, and not have to worry about changing settings, or getting all those bass drivers working together properly in the room without cancellations, etc. I use my Magnepans full range only for stereo, otherwise I use my SVS sub for movies. Most people don't want to be bothered with this sort of thing I would think.
My main point is I hope they can get more manufacturers involved! I think if more people have really nice speakers like your Salks, the more happy people there will be!

I've dealt with this problem for years, and I do have full range speakers. I also have a Marantz receiver that allows me to run the fronts at full frequency output no matter what the surround setting are. I also don't use the LFE circuitry on my subwoofer, but instead connect through the active network and set the subwoofer crossover to match the low end of speaker (35 Hz). To this point, I don't see any affect on movies, as there is only so much noise and explosions my body can handle. I do think music caliber speakers may not be the best choice for surround, but that's me.

 

[sholling]

I've dealt with this problem for years, and I do have full range speakers. I also have a Marantz receiver that allows me to run the fronts at full frequency output no matter what the surround setting are.

Exactly. Some receivers do leave you stuck with a single crossover point, but others allow you to set crossover points for each pair plus the center. Even my 2 year old Onkyo TX-SR606 has this feature. If you have a good quality modern receiver it's no more difficult to use towers with a subwoofer than it is to use bookshelves with a sub.

I do think music caliber speakers may not be the best choice for surround, but that's me.

It's going to depend on the speaker and the movie's audio. For some material a really harsh speaker can set the mood simply because that's what the sound engineer counted on in his mix. Plus we're all used to harsh speakers in the theater. I personally prefer to use music grade speakers for their clarity as long as they are capable of reproducing the slam of an impact which should not be a problem if they can reproduce the slam of a kickdrum.

 

[tom67]

Since Energy is a Klipsch company, guess they wouldnt mind if they won....

 

[tsteves]

DLeague - See, that's kind of my point. You know how to set your subwoofer properly! I know people who set their fronts to "large" and then crossover their sub at 160Hz, or whatever the maximum is. They don't realize they are creating peaks and nulls due to interference. Multiple low frequency drivers can be a blessing and a curse. I have heard some systems where they were raving about their bass, and it was all huge peaks and valleys sounding to me.

sholling - Yeah, I only use "music grade" speakers for everything. I have no idea why anyone would do things differently. My living room "Home theater" is all magnepans with an SVS sub. People complain about maggies for home theater saying they don't have the "slam" factor. Sure, they don't compare to Watt Puppies, but they have plenty of slam in my space. Plus they sound great on the 99% of the movie where it's all talking or music.

tom67 - I'm sorry if I tend to sound anti Klipsch. I'm not really, I'm just generally anti horn. It's a taste thing, and they just seem too "glaring" and "tinny", plus they don't disperse well and that annoys me to no end. I'm old, and I loved Klipsch and JBL in the 70's, but they give me a headache now. Maybe a blind test would cure me, but I'm skeptical.

 

[3db]

Who would have thought that Klipsch would have done as well as it did in the $1k shootout?

Doesn't surprise at all that Klipch did so well since the cloth they were using was lossy at high frequencie. It tamed the harshness of the horns making them sound closer to neutral and made the more neutral speakers sound dark and veiled. Like I post earlier, that cloth really skewed the test towards being pointless which is shame since everything else seemed to be done right.

 

[tsteves]

3db
Gene said

I believe one of the largest biasing factors in this test was the extremely lossy grille cloth we utilized to cover the speakers which seemed to shift the listener preference to the brighter speakers.

Yeah, I missed that! Makes a LOT more sense now!
Thanks for bringing that up.

 

[tom67]

Well, the klipsch have flush grills with a magnetic closure......so just buy $5.00 of the lossy cloth and crimp under the grill and you will have speakers that win the competition every time.....and remember, it is is equally possible that, in the absence of any screening that the judges might like the Klipsch even better with the full highs revealed. You are just assuming up front that most people dont like accurate high frequencies....I found that my Paradigms are lacking when compared with the Klipsch in this regard....

 

[AJinFLA]

Well, the klipsch have flush grills with a magnetic closure......so just buy $5.00 of the lossy cloth and crimp under the grill and you will have speakers that win the competition every time

How do you know if the modified Klipsch (or even unmodified) would be preferred over the other speakers, with their high frequencies unsuppressed (no lossy curtain)??

 

[tsteves]

AJinFLA - perfect point.
tom67 - Maybe you just like different music? I love listening mainly to unamplified jazz. I'm not saying the Studio series is all that, their Reference series is far better. The Klipsch sure didn't seem all that accurate to me when I listened. Maybe I should go back for another round of listening? I did not give them much time. I mean, it's all about sounding like the recording, right? Not the most "detailed" version of the recording with 4KHz all peaked out like a lot of "hifi" speakers? I'm not saying they sound like that, just how I remember them. And human memory of things like this is extremely fleeting.

 

[tom67]

I don't know....thats the point.....I was responding to those who assumed that the panel would not like the Klipsch without the cloth....

 

[3db]

Well, the klipsch have flush grills with a magnetic closure......so just buy $5.00 of the lossy cloth and crimp under the grill and you will have speakers that win the competition every time.....and remember, it is is equally possible that, in the absence of any screening that the judges might like the Klipsch even better with the full highs revealed. You are just assuming up front that most people dont like accurate high frequencies....I found that my Paradigms are lacking when compared with the Klipsch in this regard....

It all boils down to personal preference. Some people like the sound of the horn, others do not. Its not a right or wrong thing. Klipsh builds solid speakers. There build quality is very good. They are not cheap speakers. Its just a matter of preference. My ears are sensititve to highs and I get tired easily when listening because of that. Thats why I prefer a "warmer" sounding speaker.

 

[fredk]

It all boils down to personal preference. Some people like the sound of the horn, others do not.

Not really. If you had written "It all boils down to personal experience" I would agree with you. Olive and Toole have shown quite convincingly that in conditions where bias is controlled, the majority of people prefer a speaker with a certain set of characteristics, one of which is a flat frequency response with a slight roll off of the high end.

Toss in marketing, advice from friends, and personal listening experience, and you get a much wider range of opinion on what sounds best.

 

[sholling]

Not really. If you had written "It all boils down to personal experience" I would agree with you. Olive and Toole have shown quite convincingly that in conditions where bias is controlled, the majority of people prefer a speaker with a certain set of characteristics, one of which is a flat frequency response with a slight roll off of the high end.

Toss in marketing, advice from friends, and personal listening experience, and you get a much wider range of opinion on what sounds best.

Toss in individual variances in hearing but in general I agree with you. Without getting into brands - simply loud will impress many young rock & rollers, dead flat with great imaging is often nirvana for many of us with more experienced ears that have progressed to far more intricate music. But as I get older I have to wonder if some may prefer a brighter speaker as they begin to lose high frequency sensitivity.

 

[3db]

Not really. If you had written "It all boils down to personal experience" I would agree with you. Olive and Toole have shown quite convincingly that in conditions where bias is controlled, the majority of people prefer a speaker with a certain set of characteristics, one of which is a flat frequency response with a slight roll off of the high end.

Toss in marketing, advice from friends, and personal listening experience, and you get a much wider range of opinion on what sounds best.

The majority but not all. I'm still sticking to my guns,,,its personal preference. I don't base what I like on other opinions. There opinions are irrelevant and do not sway me.

 

[MinusTheBear]

The majority but not all. I'm still sticking to my guns,,,its personal preference. I don't base what I like on other opinions. There opinions are irrelevant and do not sway me.

Unless we are talking about PSB speakers than opinions are relevant, especially if they are positive ones.

 

[aazeez1975]

So pridictable, these audioholic guys are tool RBH - EMP and Emotiva thats their life!

 

[fredk]

I don't base what I like on other opinions.

Clearly you haven't caught on to the Jedi mind tricks yet. We are all influenced by other peoples opinions, whether we know it or not. Well, except me of course.

 

[3db]

Unless we are talking about PSB speakers than opinions are relevant, especially if they are positive ones.

Good try. I only became PSB fan boy after auditioning them to other speakers such as Paradigm, Axiom and Energy .

 

[fredk]

The funny thing is that 3 of those 4 speaker companies design based on Tooles research into speaker preference. PSB, of course, is one of those. You have merely been choosing one neutral speaker with flat response over another. So there!