2 good subs or 1 great sub?

[wingnut]

Hi All, a noob here... the ball-and-chain is letting me spend $500 on a SW. I have done quite a bit of research on various websites and have narrowed it down to this question. 1 great sub or 2 good subs?
Here are the details:
- Sony 2 ch receiver
- For music (pop and rock/metal)
- 20' x 25' room with 8' ceilings

I am currently contemplating two BIC F12s or one SVS PB1000 but am open to other suggestions.
*note* though I prefer a sealed box, I have ruled it out due to room size. Thoughts?
Thanks

 

[Irvrobinson]

If your main speakers reach down to at least 30Hz with low distortion, you can get away with one great sub by running your mains full-range and using the sub just to augment and extend the mains. This gives you three bass sources for most music. Otherwise, you're a lot better off with two subs. For the case where you run the mains full-range you'll also need some sort of equalization to tune the sub's response so that it is just not additive to the mains, otherwise you'll just have bloated, muddy bass octaves.

What are your main speakers?

 

[wingnut]

If your main speakers reach down to at least 30Hx with low distortion, you can get away with one great sub by running your mains full-range and using the sub just to augment and extend the mains. This gives you three bass sources for most music. Otherwise, you're a lot better off with two subs. For the case where you run the mains full-range you'll also need some sort of equalization to tune the sub's response so that it is just not additive to the mains, otherwise you'll just have bloated, muddy bass octaves.

What are your main speakers?

Hahaha! I was afraid you'd ask.... I sincerely love my old Bose 401s for the crispy highs. It does have two 6.5" mid-bass drivers per speaker but I am unsure of the freqs. I'm sure they cant hit 30s as they are considered bookshelf speakers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Hahaha! I was afraid you'd ask.... I sincerely love my old Bose 401s for the crispy highs. It does have two 6.5" mid-bass drivers per speaker but I am unsure of the freqs. I'm sure they cant hit 30s as they are considered bookshelf speakers.

Forget subs. Get new mains. Seriously.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

a) You can't buy great sub for $500. Decent one - maybe even good one... (Bic yet to build one decent sub)
For bottom dollar it would hard to find better value at low end than Dayton sub-1200

I agree with Irv - Start from new Speakers first.

If I were you I'd wait for Elac Debut F5 tower speakers
http://elac.us/speakers

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi All, a noob here... the ball-and-chain is letting me spend $500 on a SW. I have done quite a bit of research on various websites and have narrowed it down to this question. 1 great sub or 2 good subs?
Here are the details:
- Sony 2 ch receiver
- For music (pop and rock/metal)
- 20' x 25' room with 8' ceilings

I am currently contemplating two BIC F12s or one SVS PB1000 but am open to other suggestions.
*note* though I prefer a sealed box, I have ruled it out due to room size. Thoughts?
Thanks

Welcome.

A 2 ch setup? I would not bother with a sub unless you are contemplating the digitally recorded 1812 Overture. Perhaps one would help out those 6.5: drivers.

 

[wingnut]

Welcome.

A 2 ch setup? I would not bother with a sub unless you are contemplating the digitally recorded 1812 Overture. Perhaps one would help out those 6.5: drivers.

I don't understand the sarcasm. I did not mention that i am going to replace my current sub (which complimented those 6.5 drivers quite well) as it has no bearing on the initial question, not to mention that I stated that my system if for music only. That should explain the 2 channel receiver. mtrycraft your system is nice but unfortunately your snide remarks do not represent audioholics very well.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I don't understand the sarcasm. I did not mention that i am going to replace my current sub (which complimented those 6.5 drivers quite well) as it has no bearing on the initial question, not to mention that I stated that my system if for music only. That should explain the 2 channel receiver. mtrycraft your system is nice but unfortunately your snide remarks do not represent audioholics very well.

I agree, lots of music, like fusion jazz, has sub30Hz content. You really need new mains though.

 

[wingnut]

I agree, lots of music, like fusion jazz, has sub30Hz content. You really need new mains though.

Irv, i'll keep that in mind but it might have to be my Fathers day gift to myself next June.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Irv, i'll keep that in mind but it might have to be my Fathers day gift to myself next June.

Waiting is good, but you came here with ask to upgrade something (probably sub)
Pretty much every poster above me is in agreement that you should start with Mains first and your current budget allows you to get pretty decent ones (like Elac F6 I'd mentioned above (they should be around $500/pr retail once first dust settles)

As for mycrafts comment, while 1812 overture is perhaps an extreme example for need to played right either with VERY expensive speakers or really good sub.

Pair of good towers and you COULD get by without sub till next time you have budget to spend on stereo.

 

[wingnut]

Waiting is good, but you came here with ask to upgrade something (probably sub)
Pretty much every poster above me is in agreement that you should start with Mains first and your current budget allows you to get pretty decent ones (like Elac F6 I'd mentioned above (they should be around $500/pr retail once first dust settles)

As for mycrafts comment, while 1812 overture is perhaps an extreme example for need to played right either with VERY expensive speakers or really good sub.

Pair of good towers and you COULD get by without sub till next time you have budget to spend on stereo.

BSA your points are noted: I too have heard great things about Jones' Elacs. All other observations will be considered from this website as well as the other two websites where I posted the same question. The wide array of responses has been interesting and as of now, I am not ruling out more research and possibly purchasing mains.

 

[Oskar Gustavsson]

Yes get proper mains!
i got these from Dali
http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/LEKTOR-8.aspx

and its just magic to have proper speakers to play from.
The sub i have is a dali aswell
http://www.dali-speakers.com/en-US/Loudspeakers-1/SUB-E-12-F.aspx

but i put it in a corner and it complements perfectly even though its a cheapo.

but again... mains first! good luck in your research and i hope we saved you some agonising headache.


(btw your better half will love the new mains)

 

[herbu]

...$500 on a SW...1 great sub or 2 good subs?

These guys, including mtrycrafts, are right.
First, you can't get 1 great or 2 good subs for $500.
Second, for music only, 2 decent mains will provide a far more pleasurable experience than the mains you have and even a great sub.
Third, mtrycrafts made an excellent point. Not sure why you took offense. For most music, you'll not miss the subwoofer... unless your mains are junk, or you listen to stuff like the 1812 Overture w/ digital cannon booms.

 

[Irvrobinson]

For most music, you'll not miss the subwoofer... unless your mains are junk, or you listen to stuff like the 1812 Overture w/ digital cannon booms.

I don't agree with this at all. For purely acoustic music sub-40Hz content is rare, but for any modern music with synthesizers like jazz or popular music, there's a surprising amount of deep bass content, as measured by an RTA. Mtycrafts is just plain wrong.

 

[Alex2507]

First of all I would be stunned if the 401's went to 30 Hz. 2nd: even if Mtyhoweveryouspellit is wrong, it's unlikely he's snide. I have a couple of cheap subs worth about $500 all put together and I prefer music without them because my xo option is locked in at 80Hz in the Oppo player's bass management. His points hold true in my situation.

There's a pretty strong consensus here to upgrade the mains but if the OP is satisfied then $500 on one sub would be my advice. You should order it today.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I can't stand jazz and pop isn't real big on my list either so I don't miss much not using my cheap subs.

2nd EDIT: It just occurred to me that Irv's point holds true on a different system that has two particularly sweet sounding DIY subs but I think that may be due to my listening at low spl. Way below reference level it's nice to be able to bump the gain putting the low end up past our threshold of audibility. Without the subs I'd need an EQ to get that. Different strokes and skinned cats.

 

[wingnut]

Ok... I got it. Change the mains. Please keep in mind that accuracy, over the entire spectrum of whatever is audible, is not what I'm looking for... otherwise I would be looking at monitors. I like music warm and pleasant at lower volumes. I enjoy crispy highs and low-tight bass. Mid-range and mid-bass are secondary. I'm not sure what freqs that emphasizes (OP stated noob). I understand this should probly go in a different post.
Though I highly value everyone's opinion, the question of 1 great sub or 2 good subs is still looms... so let me rephrase.
If I had a pair of approved floor model speakers, should I spend $500 on one great sub or two good subs?

BTW yes I am contemplating purchasing mains instead.

 

[Alex2507]

the question of 1 great sub or 2 good subs is still looms...

I covered that.

Here's the deal for me. My subs are nearfield and I live in a condo so two cheap subs works better than one $500 DefTech Super Cube 1 sub. I actually tried one and while the better sub was better, having a more even, less localizable LF response was preferable. Plus I run my mains Large with just LFE going to the subs for BR movies. I waited for a while to find another matching $500 sub but ended up giving away the one one I had so here I am with the two Infinity PS10s.

If I didn't have to have my subs nearfield I would without question get the very best single sub I could afford.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Oh yeah, I can't stand jazz and pop isn't real big on my list either so I don't miss much not using my cheap subs.

Well, no wonder you're oblivious! Take the Yellowjackets, for example, a fusion jazz group that Gene and I both enjoy. Sub-30Hz content abounds on their albums. Sarah McLachlan is an example of a very enjoyable popular singer whose albums have a lot of deep bass content. Tracy Chapman is another. Some mains really don't need subs, like my Salon2s, but a good sub can give you bass tuning options you can't get any other way. And for music you want to place the mains for best imaging, and that isn't often the best placement for smoothest bass. I've turned into a big fan of subs for two-channel music-only systems.

 

[STRONGBADF1]

One better sub.

 

[Alex2507]

Well, no wonder you're oblivious! Take the Yellowjackets, for example, a fusion jazz group that Gene and I both enjoy. Sub-30Hz content abounds on their albums. Sarah McLachlan is an example of a very enjoyable popular singer whose albums have a lot of deep bass content. Tracy Chapman is another. Some mains really don't need subs, like my Salon2s, but a good sub can give you bass tuning options you can't get any other way. And for music you want to place the mains for best imaging, and that isn't often the best placement for smoothest bass. I've turned into a big fan of subs for two-channel music-only systems.

You wouldn't use two $250 subs with the Salons as I don't use mine with SongTowers. I just send the LFE to the subs when BR movies play but in a different music only system with better subs, I do use subs crossed at 60 or 80 Hz. I think we're saying the same thing. I'm aware of Sarah McLachlan's use of bass and I enjoy her music as well. The thing is you gotta pay to play LF with any authority. Half @ssing the LF just takes away from the other parts that can be played well at a reasonable cost. I know you know all that but I just thought it might be of some help to others.

BTW, all the crisp highs and smooth lows ain't gonna make a speaker sound worth sh!t if your mids aren't spot on. Mids are what we hear best. That's what the human voice puts out and that's what our ears are most sensitive to. That point I did want to make.

Wingnut, if you're anything like most here, you'll go through a few subs and a few sets of speakers before it's all said and done. Let us know what you decide.