$2,500 Recommended 5.1 Surround Sound System

3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
An amp with more headroom can and does improve the fidelity of sound, especially when driving music at louder listening levels.

Of course if you're of the opinion that all amps sound the same, then by all means get the cheapest A/V receiver that has the features you need and use that.
Headroom only comes into play because of louder listening requirements but not at typical listening levels. Off course, this would be offset by room size. For smaller listening rooms, there is no need to feed the Pioneers that much power. They would not sound any different whether amplified through a receiver or seperates like you suggest. For larger rooms, I wonder if the Emotiva would simply over power the Pioneers which in that case would render the combination ineffective.
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
Are you saying there's a marked difference in sound with amplifiers driving speakers well within their power envelope? If so, I'm disagreeing with that assertion.

I would switch out the Emotiva equipment for either a Denon or a Yamaha receiver, upgrade the speakers and change out that sub to the Outlaw LFM-EX which is only $50 bucks more, plays louder and deeper.
I'm going to nitpick on one part of this - the LFM-1 EX is regularly $649, not counting shipping (which I think is normally another $90). The SVS in the article is $499 shipped.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I'm going to nitpick on one part of this - the LFM-1 EX is regularly $649, not counting shipping (which I think is normally another $90). The SVS in the article is $499 shipped.
Nitpicking approved. :p I was interupted while doing the math. SVS stays.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
I'm glad to see Pioneers recommended outside of their regular $1000 point system with big step up to $2500 system. This speaks volumes on how actually Gene is impressed this these "little" speakers...
And the amazing thing is, some people still want to under rate them,
or tend to want to replace them - before ever listening to them.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Since these cheap Pioneer speakers are so impressive, we really need to have an AH review of their more expensive models like the Pioneer EX speakers. :D
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Headroom only comes into play because of louder listening requirements but not at typical listening levels. Off course, this would be offset by room size. For smaller listening rooms, there is no need to feed the Pioneers that much power. They would not sound any different whether amplified through a receiver or seperates like you suggest. For larger rooms, I wonder if the Emotiva would simply over power the Pioneers which in that case would render the combination ineffective.
I beg to differ. Even at below driving amplifiers to their limits, amplifiers can and do perform differently and it does translate to sound differences to. We've run many fun experiments in the past here using a Panasonic Class D receiver and a Marantz linear amp and at low power levels people clearly heard the difference. The Panasonic had poor control of bass and just didn't sound as warm as the Marantz.

I've had similar experiences when reviewing the 8T system with various amplifiers.

If you honestly have convinced yourself that all amps sound the same at modest power levels, then by all means don't waste your money on separates.

For others, separates make a lot of sense. They give you flexibility of changing out the processor as tech changes and more flexibility in using better quality amplification. You often get better preamp stages and DAC's which again translates to better sound. Separates are often easier and less intimidating to setup and use than A/V receivers jammed packed with features.

Most budget receivers these days either don't have preamp outs or they clip with 1Vrms which isn't enough drive signal to reach maximum gain on most power amps.

Seriously it seems lately this forum has become a race to the bottom of recommending only the most inexpensive gear. Most of the critics Diss product recommendations on stuff they actually have NO experience in using.

The Pioneer speakers are actually damn good for the money and as with any good speaker, throwing better amplification at them is NEVER a bad thing.
 
L

lesser evil

Enthusiast
Seriously under funded LCR speakers

Step away from the emotiva amps.

Regardless of the price to performance ratio; in a $2500 system, you may be better advised to spend 60+% of your budget on speakers and go with a $400-$500 receiver. Didn't you guys review Denon receivers in that price range that have all the current bells & whistles?

Speakers are usually the weakest link in HT systems at this price point.

Aren't there some speakers with similar price / perfiormance ration at $250 - $300 each?

Spending 5% of the budget on each of the LCR speakers seems way out of whack.
 
Last edited:
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Spending 5% of the budget on each of the LCR speakers seems way out of whack.
Your math is just a little bit off. $986 (5 speakers + sub) is about 39% of the budget for the entire system. :rolleyes:
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
I'm going to nitpick on one part of this - the LFM-1 EX is regularly $649, not counting shipping (which I think is normally another $90). The SVS in the article is $499 shipped.
He probably meant the LFM-1 Plus, which is $50 more not including shipping. I think it will still be worlds better than the SVS and EMP subs.
 
SaviorMachine

SaviorMachine

Enthusiast
lesser evil said:
Spending 5% of the budget on each of the LCR speakers seems way out of whack.
Your math is just a little bit off. $986 (5 speakers + sub) is about 39% of the budget for the entire system. :rolleyes:
some percentage of $2500 is $129 (the cost of each of the two mains)

129/2500 = some percentage/100

12,900 = 2500 x some percentage

12,900/2500 = 5.16
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
some percentage of $2500 is $129 (the cost of each of the two mains)

129/2500 = some percentage/100

12,900 = 2500 x some percentage

12,900/2500 = 5.16
Technically you ere absolutely right, however it's common to calculate the price of all speakers as percentage of whole budget... So about 40% is closer to recommended portion...

And you right again and Audioholics tend to recommend over 60% of budget towards speakers.... This is not set in stone, but a good starting point.
Sometimes, there are exceptions... I'd really like to see full measurement of pioneer 2012 speakers before pass the judgment...
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Technically you ere absolutely right, however it's common to calculate the price of all speakers as percentage of whole budget... So about 40% is closer to recommended portion...

And you right again and Audioholics tend to recommend over 60% of budget towards speakers.... This is not set in stone, but a good starting point.
Sometimes, there are exceptions... I'd really like to see full measurement of pioneer 2012 speakers before pass the judgment...
Finally a voice of reason. I am looking forward to measuring the Pioneers. They do tend to be a bit treble heavy but they aren't fatiguing. I suspect the tweeter level is set a tad high for zing effect but damn do they sound sweet for such little $$$ I don't want to taint my subjective impressions with measurements until I finish writing up how I felt they sounded.
 
SaviorMachine

SaviorMachine

Enthusiast
Technically you ere absolutely right, however it's common to calculate the price of all speakers as percentage of whole budget... So about 40% is closer to recommended portion...

And you right again and Audioholics tend to recommend over 60% of budget towards speakers.... This is not set in stone, but a good starting point.
Sometimes, there are exceptions... I'd really like to see full measurement of pioneer 2012 speakers before pass the judgment...
That all sounds perfectly reasonable. For the record, I'm not lesser evil, who first made the statement about each LCR speaker as a percentage of total system cost.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
I am looking forward to measuring the Pioneers. They do tend to be a bit treble heavy but they aren't fatiguing. I suspect the tweeter level is set a tad high for zing effect but damn do they sound sweet for such little $$$ I don't want to taint my subjective impressions with measurements until I finish writing up how I felt they sounded.
I can't wait for this! I love the presence or vividness of these speakers and think it is more than just tipped up treble. Perhaps it is the waveguide design or some aspect of the dispersion that makes these have a $$$ sound with $ speakers? I think I read something about Andrew Jones working with a Witch Doctor!:eek::D. That is about as good an explanation as I can come up with!

Maybe it is carefully selected tipped up treble, but my perception is something more is going on.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I beg to differ. Even at below driving amplifiers to their limits, amplifiers can and do perform differently and it does translate to sound differences to. We've run many fun experiments in the past here using a Panasonic Class D receiver and a Marantz linear amp and at low power levels people clearly heard the difference. The Panasonic had poor control of bass and just didn't sound as warm as the Marantz.

I've had similar experiences when reviewing the 8T system with various amplifiers.

If you honestly have convinced yourself that all amps sound the same at modest power levels, then by all means don't waste your money on separates.

For others, separates make a lot of sense. They give you flexibility of changing out the processor as tech changes and more flexibility in using better quality amplification. You often get better preamp stages and DAC's which again translates to better sound. Separates are often easier and less intimidating to setup and use than A/V receivers jammed packed with features.

Most budget receivers these days either don't have preamp outs or they clip with 1Vrms which isn't enough drive signal to reach maximum gain on most power amps.

Seriously it seems lately this forum has become a race to the bottom of recommending only the most inexpensive gear. Most of the critics Diss product recommendations on stuff they actually have NO experience in using.

The Pioneer speakers are actually damn good for the money and as with any good speaker, throwing better amplification at them is NEVER a bad thing.
I'm not a fan of class D amps except for those found in subs. Compare some receivers with linear amps please and not that dreaded class D BS that seems to be perculating the market on the lower end receiver lines. Its strange how you would think that people who would choose a receiver in your suggested $2500 setup automatically go for the bottom rung of the receiver line. That's just an incorrect assumption on your end.

I also understand the use of seperates and the advantages it can bring to a system. I also do recognize how good these Pioneers are for their money. How can a speaker this cheap sound so good? However, they still have their limitations despite them being best bang for the buck performance.

Like I said previously, mating these speakers to the amp and preamp you selected is over kill. In a small room, you will never put to use the power of the Emotiva nor will you hear any difference in sound between them and a mid level receiver (not bottom rung receiver). In a large room, I suspect that the Emotiva is just too much amp for these speakers and you will end up over driving them.

Its nothing personal Gene.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
The Panasonic is overly low hanging fruit and doesn't really represent a mainstream product using conventional design. I would be very interested if this type of problem was noted in mainstream offerings from Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Harmon Kardon, etc
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
The Panasonic is overly low hanging fruit and doesn't really represent a mainstream product using conventional design. I would be very interested if this type of problem was noted in mainstream offerings from Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Harmon Kardon, etc
I was going to make this point as well but decided against against posting it earlier. Panasonic makes some famously bad receivers, in fact I don't remember the last time I saw one outside of an HTiB.
 
J

jcl

Senior Audioholic
I know there's a million ways to spend $2500 on a system and we're all playing armchair quarterback, but I'm a little surprised that all the alternative receivers that are mentioned, Yamaha rxa720 & Denon 2313, don't have pre-outs. If you go up to the Yamaha 820 you get the preouts and then have the option in the future of adding more power. The Marantz 5007 is another in that price range with pre-outs. Both options would be more than the recommended avrs but still less than the separates.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I'm not a fan of class D amps except for those found in subs. Compare some receivers with linear amps please and not that dreaded class D BS that seems to be perculating the market on the lower end receiver lines. Its strange how you would think that people who would choose a receiver in your suggested $2500 setup automatically go for the bottom rung of the receiver line. That's just an incorrect assumption on your end.

I also understand the use of seperates and the advantages it can bring to a system. I also do recognize how good these Pioneers are for their money. How can a speaker this cheap sound so good? However, they still have their limitations despite them being best bang for the buck performance.

Like I said previously, mating these speakers to the amp and preamp you selected is over kill. In a small room, you will never put to use the power of the Emotiva nor will you hear any difference in sound between them and a mid level receiver (not bottom rung receiver). In a large room, I suspect that the Emotiva is just too much amp for these speakers and you will end up over driving them.

Its nothing personal Gene.
We offered good non Class D amp receiver alternatives to the Emotiva Separates. You really need to move on. Your opinion has been stated many times and I'm tired of hearing it. IF you want to suggest alternative $2500 systems do it in another thread. You're also welcome to start your own website and produce content that I can come in and criticize :D
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
The Panasonic is overly low hanging fruit and doesn't really represent a mainstream product using conventional design. I would be very interested if this type of problem was noted in mainstream offerings from Onkyo, Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer, Harmon Kardon, etc
I have noted these problems in Pioneer ICE receivers and got flogged for it. Only years later were my findings vindicated by Pioneer engineers and people in the field giving me stories on how Pioneer ICE amps were unable to adequately drive 4 ohm speakers despite the print magazines boasted lots of power...driven at 1kHz only. Note how Pioneer no longer uses ICE.

IN my personal systems, I have found a great variance in sound quality of amplifiers (linear and Class D) when driving power hungry, low impedance speaker systems. Even my $4k Marantz Integrated wasn't up for task at driving my Status 8T system. Even at low listening levels it was apparent. I still love the Marantz unit and it does great powering more modest speakers but there is a reason for beefier, more robust amplifier designs. It's not just all about the power either. Power is a big factor, but being able to drive lots of current, with good dynamic headroom, low output impedance, low noise, good channel separation are all important factors. Sorry folks but a $5-600 receiver is NOT the epitome of this.

I've been testing A/V receivers and amplifiers of all prices for over a decade so I speak from experience, not to mention I used to design amplifiers for audio and RF frequencies 7 years prior to doing Audioholics fulltime. I think I have a pretty solid understanding on this topic and most importantly an open mind to recognize my measurement gear is no substitute for what I hear when integrating equipment.
 
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