$2,000-3,000 Tower speaker comparison: Need help picking the contenders

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Then, store number 2 had the Dynaudio DM 3/7 vs. both the Focal 816v and the 826v. They offered me the 826v for $2,375 and the smaller Focal and Dynaudio for just under 2 grand. Anyway, the Dynaudio was powerful, smooth, nothing bad about it, but it did not wow me. I guess I had the same reaction to it as I did to the PSBs I heard last week. But I really liked the Focal 826v. I thought it had great, airy, open highs and also smooth mids and good bass, not quite as powerful or deep as the R700, but enough.

... I am probably going to try to get the 826v set home to add into the mix.

I paid $1800 for my brand new Focal 826V, but not authorized dealer so it's like buying from AudiogoN, except they are really brand new.

I paid $1375 delivered for my Dynaudio X32, used excellent 9/10 condition on AudiogoN.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

On the B&M side Totems were some of my favorites. I forget the exact model, but they impressed me more than the B&W 80whatever's were planted right next to them (sorry ADTG ) If possible you may want to check those out.

Good luck and have fun.

It's all about what we enjoy.

Good to audition as many speakers as possible, even the ones that don't measure as well as some others.

Of the Totem speakers I've seen on the web, their measurements remind me of B&W, DefTech, Klipsch....Not bad....Not as good as some that are +/-2dB, but not as bad as some that are +/-6dB or +/-10dB.

 

[fuzz092888]

It's all about what we enjoy.

Good to audition as many speakers as possible, even the ones that don't measure as well as some others.

Of the Totem speakers I've seen on the web, their measurements remind me of B&W, DefTech, Klipsch....Not bad....Not as good as some that are +/-2dB, but not as bad as some that are +/-6dB or +/-10dB.

I was at the same store with the totems and B&W's today and they had moved them from the cramped little room into one of the much more open and larger store displays. They were driven by all Mc gear and sounded pretty good. Granted I didn't do any critical listening, just some messing around with TV and a movie or two that was on, but they definitely benefited from the space (wink wink nudge nudge ).

They didn't have the totems I had listened to before so I couldn't do any sort of comparison, but I did check out a JVC and Runco projector that they had. Freakin' awesome.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was at the same store with the totems and B&W's today and they had moved them from the cramped little room into one of the much more open and larger store displays. They were driven by all Mc gear and sounded pretty good. Granted I didn't do any critical listening, just some messing around with TV and a movie or two that was on, but they definitely benefited from the space (wink wink nudge nudge ).

They didn't have the totems I had listened to before so I couldn't do any sort of comparison, but I did check out a JVC and Runco projector that they had. Freakin' awesome.

Those big 802D2 will sound much better as soon as you put $15K on your credit card.

 

[fuzz092888]

Those big 802D2 will sound much better as soon as you put $15K on your credit card.

I'm pretty sure that if I added all my credit cards together it still wouldn't add up to $15K

 

[JerryLove]

Those big 802D2 will sound much better as soon as you put $15K on your credit card.

Why settle for an 802? For that money I'll sell you my 801's (N not D).

 

[SnowmaNick]

Those big 802D2 will sound much better as soon as you put $15K on your credit card.

The 802D's aren't big enough. I'm 6'5", 250lb, and I don't think they would completely hold my body. Which would be a concern, as my wife would surely kill me for spending $15k on a pair of speakers and the only way I could enjoy them was if I were buried in them.

*And no, cremation doesn't solve this, I need to have ears to enjoy them. Geesh.

 

[PENG]

I was at the same store with the totems and B&W's today and they had moved them from the cramped little room into one of the much more open and larger store displays. They were driven by all Mc gear and sounded pretty good. Granted I didn't do any critical listening, just some messing around with TV and a movie or two that was on, but they definitely benefited from the space (wink wink nudge nudge ).

They didn't have the totems I had listened to before so I couldn't do any sort of comparison, but I did check out a JVC and Runco projector that they had. Freakin' awesome.

Hello fuzz,next time you go there, take a look of the VU meters on the Mc's and take note of how little power, peaks I mean the speakers draw at a comfortable listening level. I wish more people know that before they threw money to get power instead of focus of things that matter most first.

 

[JerryLove]

Hello fuzz,next time you go there, take a look of the VU meters on the Mc's and take note of how little power, peaks I mean the speakers draw at a comfortable listening level. I wish more people know that before they threw money to get power instead of focus of things that matter most first.

I cannot speak for the 802's, but I can for the 801's... they are hard to drive.

I'm very much in the "amps are sufficient or insufficient" camp; but also assert that "wattage" is not the only measure of amp power.

For example: McIntosh is one of the few brands that will accept 2ohm loads; which at least the 801s offer at many frequencies.

 

[fuzz092888]

Hello fuzz,next time you go there, take a look of the VU meters on the Mc's and take note of how little power, peaks I mean the speakers draw at a comfortable listening level. I wish more people know that before they threw money to get power instead of focus of things that matter most first.

Oh I saw. I wasn't allowed to turn them up too high since they are now in a much more open/main part of the store, but the meters on the Mc barely moved. I thought the thing was either broken or not hooked up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hello fuzz,next time you go there, take a look of the VU meters on the Mc's and take note of how little power, peaks I mean the speakers draw at a comfortable listening level. I wish more people know that before they threw money to get power instead of focus of things that matter most first.

Overkill is the audiophile.

The fact that most speakers have a sensitivity of 90dB/2.83V/m tells us they don't need 200 watts to play 90dB from 3m distance. They sure as heck don't need 500 watts.

My so-called hard-to-drive B&W is the loudest speakers I own (along with the TAD).

 

[JerryLove]

I just finished a discussion with a guy over on HomeTheater Shack over whether amps color sound.

He setup a mic ran his Focal Maestro Utopia's off two two different (powerful) amps and put up the result (Do Amplifiers "color" sound? - Page 7 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com).

While the scale is too large, and the graphs should have been overlaid, and while there should have been at least 4 runs (A then B then A then B) to eliminate other factors; the graph does show a difference.

And it wasn't in overall volume. They could be driven loud. They just weren't flat.

Thing is: I got him to try a more efficient and less demanding speaker and the differences went away.

I ran into the same things with my 801S2's running off a Marantz AVR. I had to move them to my Yammy pro-amp to get good sound. Then there's my 801N's which still have sound issues on the Yammy. Looking at their impedance graphs I'm not surprised.

I don't know the particulars: but there is more than wattage-to-spl involved here in the load a speaker presents to an amp.

 

[PENG]

I just finished a discussion with a guy over on HomeTheater Shack over whether amps color sound.

He setup a mic ran his Focal Maestro Utopia's off two two different (powerful) amps and put up the result (Do Amplifiers "color" sound? - Page 7 - Home Theater Forum and Systems - HomeTheaterShack.com).

While the scale is too large, and the graphs should have been overlaid, and while there should have been at least 4 runs (A then B then A then B) to eliminate other factors; the graph does show a difference.

And it wasn't in overall volume. They could be driven loud. They just weren't flat.

Thing is: I got him to try a more efficient and less demanding speaker and the differences went away.

I ran into the same things with my 801S2's running off a Marantz AVR. I had to move them to my Yammy pro-amp to get good sound. Then there's my 801N's which still have sound issues on the Yammy. Looking at their impedance graphs I'm not surprised.

I don't know the particulars: but there is more than wattage-to-spl involved here in the load a speaker presents to an amp.

Good for him, he needs to listen to bunch of amps before he buys one, and hope he picks the right one as it will be difficult to compare so many amps. What a bunch of BS, instead of focussing on the source media, speakers and things that affec/color the sound much more, he worry about the minor, if audible at all differences between amps. By the way, at 1 watt, power cannot be an issue regardless of speaker impedance, even at 2 ohms, it takes the amp less than 1 ampere/2 volts of output and most well designed (however different) amps would have THD and IMD of less than 0.05%. It may be higher at much lower output but 1W is not exactly low.

 

[JerryLove]

By the way, at 1 watt, power cannot be an issue regardless of speaker impedance, even at 2 ohms, it takes the amp less than 1 ampere/2 volts of output and most well designed (however different) amps would have THD and IMD of less than 0.05%. It may be higher at much lower output but 1W is not exactly low.

Yea. Come listen to my Sony AVR try to drive my Nautilus 801's at 90db (1w) and tell me it sounds OK to you. Maybe it's the "high capacitive phase angle in the midbass" (Gods I do hate quoting stereophile). I don't know; but it's not subtle.

And BTW: his measured variances fall far outside the variation-from-flat inherent to an amplifier.

 

[Steve81]

Yea. Come listen to my Sony AVR try to drive my Nautilus 801's at 90db (1w) and tell me it sounds OK to you. Maybe it's the "high capacitive phase angle in the midbass" (Gods I do hate quoting stereophile). I don't know; but it's not subtle.

I suppose it's worth noting that when you're specifying voltage sensitivity, ie 90dB w/ 2.83v @ 1m, this only equates to 1 watt at 8 ohms. At an impedance of 2 ohms, it's 4 watts. What makes it worse is that watt for watt, you're demanding double the current with a 2 ohm load than an 8 ohm load. Add in nasty phase angles, and it isn't out of the realm of possibility that a bottom of the barrel AVR might have difficulties driving such a speaker, even at "lower" levels.

 

[JerryLove]

My 801 Matrix 2's were originally hooked up to my Integra AVR. They sounded unpleasant. It was midrange (vocals) that stood out. I thought the previous owner had screwed up the crossovers, or that there was a problem with the tweeter.

I plugged them into my Yamaha P5000S and the problems went away. The sound isn't perfect: but I'm reasonably confident at this point that the amp is not the issue (they sound the same on my McIntosh 2120, and I don't have anything better to try them on); that this is simply how 801 Matrix sounds.

My 801 Nautilus' don't sound "right" on my Yammy (though far better than on my Integra). With the 2120 in pieces; I'm still working to put enough amp under them.

I wont say I'm immune to listener bias; but I never noticed a difference between even the IntegraAVR/PioneerAVR and Yamaha Amp on a dozen other lines of speakers (Infinity, GMA, Sony, Paradigm, etc) I had used prior to these. My HT is still running off my Marantz AVR.

 

[PENG]

Yea. Come listen to my Sony AVR try to drive my Nautilus 801's at 90db (1w) and tell me it sounds OK to you. Maybe it's the "high capacitive phase angle in the midbass" (Gods I do hate quoting stereophile). I don't know; but it's not subtle.

And BTW: his measured variances fall far outside the variation-from-flat inherent to an amplifier.

I don't believe in all amp/avr sound the same, but the difference between the well design ones are subtle. I have no idea what model of Sony you have, or what condition it is in. My Sony 4ES (no longer has) would have no problem sounding fine with your 801 if only ask to output 1W, say 10W peak regardless of what S.Guttenburg may tell you. Capacitive or inductive phase angle don't make much difference for the amp in terms of making it to deliver even more current or the same watts, the formula remains as P=VIcos(phase angle), regardless of whether the angle is leading or lagging unless. Now if the angle is 90 degree, i.e. like a pure capacitor then it could cause stability issues but I highly doubt the 801 could come anywhere close to 90. I know there are claims as such but don't go by hearsays. As for measurements, who knows, unless it's done by some indepedent accredited/certified labs, I don't have to believe them but of course that's just me.

 

[PENG]

I suppose it's worth noting that when you're specifying voltage sensitivity, ie 90dB w/ 2.83v @ 1m, this only equates to 1 watt at 8 ohms. At an impedance of 2 ohms, it's 4 watts. What makes it worse is that watt for watt, you're demanding double the current with a 2 ohm load than an 8 ohm load. Add in nasty phase angles, and it isn't out of the realm of possibility that a bottom of the barrel AVR might have difficulties driving such a speaker, even at "lower" levels.

Sure, now you are talking 4W, not 1W, big difference. That 4W would rise rapidly if you walk away a few meters, and then if you listen to music that has good dynamics, it would not sound right unless you have a couple hundred clean watts on hand.

 

[Steve81]

Capacitive or inductive phase angle don't make much difference for the amp, the formula remains as P=VIcos(phase angle), regardless of whether the angle is leading or lagging.

At 1W, you'd hope not, although perhaps some flea watt SET models might have problems. However, a reactive load can have an impact on an amplifier. Take a quick look at the power cube result on page 35:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_29_r.pdf

Sure, now you are talking 4W, not 1W, big difference.

Indeed; but a 90dB w/ 2.83V sensitive speaker with dips down to 2 ohms is only 84dB sensitive w/ 1 watt at those 2 ohm dips, which makes such comparisons a little more interesting. The fact that watt for watt, it is harder to drive a 2 ohm load than an 8 ohm load only adds to this. Fortunately I sit here with my 99dB sensitive main speakers with an 8 ohm nominal impedance that don't dip much (if at all if I can believe Klipsch tech support) below the 4 ohm mark.

 

[JerryLove]

Sure, now you are talking 4W, not 1W, big difference. That 4W would rise rapidly if you walk away a few meters, and then if you listen to music that has good dynamics, it would not sound right unless you have a couple hundred clean watts on hand.

You know as well as I do that the difference between 100W (which AVRs regularly rate) and 400W (which would require $2000 in XPA-1 monoblocks) is 6db. 1000W (which I think starts at $10,000 unless we want to include some pro-gear) is only +10db from 100w (an AVR).

I'd think anyone here using any external amp at all would be hard pressed to say that there is no difference other than wattage.