jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
65" plasma, no amp, 2 great subs. Spend real money on quality racks and installation.
 
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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
Today I am going to go audition speakers with my dad-I'll tell you guys which ones he likes when we get back.
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
Is that written in stone?
Common sense shouldn't need to be written in stone... :rolleyes:

He's got limited funds to get:
  • A TV
  • A receiver
  • Seven speakers
  • Two subwoofers (at least)
  • A turntable
  • Some basic measurement gear
  • Any stands, mounts, racks, wiring... all those little things that eat up the budget
Your original plan for him allocating about the same amount on an amplifier as you did his front 3 speakers. That's just a really poor use of funds IMO. :eek: :rolleyes:

Why should he have to settle for an Emotiva when he could afford something with higher quality parts?

Or perhaps he just desires to buy something that is made right here in the USA if possible?

Or perhaps he prefers a 7 yr warranty over a 5 yr warranty?

Or perhaps he prefers the Fuse-less technology of the ATI amp and not want to risk having a blown fuse in the Emotiva down the road?
That's the thing - with all that he needs to get, he can't really afford to get something with higher quality parts, without compromising somewhere else. Especially something that might not be needed.

If he wants an amp, get something with two or three channels. But don't drop 20% of your budget when you could be getting even better speakers/subs/TV.
 
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BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Common sense shouldn't need to be written in stone... :rolleyes:

He's got limited funds to get:
  • A TV
  • A receiver
  • Seven speakers
  • Two subwoofers (at least)
  • A turntable
  • Some basic measurement gear
  • Any stands, mounts, racks, wiring... all those little things that eat up the budget
Your original plan for him allocating about the same amount on an amplifier as you did his front 3 speakers. That's just a really poor use of funds IMO. :eek: :rolleyes:



That's the thing - with all that he needs to get, he can't really afford to get something with higher quality parts, without compromising somewhere else. Especially something that might not be needed

If he wants an amp, get something with two or three channels. But don't drop 20% of your budget when you could be getting even better speakers/subs/TV.
12k for EVERYTHING is not a lot. I concur, if amp needed (at all) OP should stick to better value emotiva and up TV and subs with leftovers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Common sense shouldn't need to be written in stone... :rolleyes:
What you consider to be common sense is nonsense to me.

Let's not all think we're geniuses here. This is just a hobby.

None of us have to agree on anything.

You make your recommendations, and I make mine. The OP and his father will look at all the options, use their own common sense, not your common sense, and decide for themselves.

Just make your own recommendation. I won't make any remarks about it.
 
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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
My dad had a great time at the store today. Too much of a great time. I fear I may have turned him into an audioholic. The people at the store were very helpful, and allowed us to listen and switch out components at our will. About the speakets- my dad especially loved the Bowers and Wilkins CM series, the Energy Veritas series, various Martin Logans, and the Klipsch Reference series. (Not in that order) As for the TV...he...err..umm...bought a freakin NuVision 65'...That was pretty much the equillivant of the old budget... The salespeople, however, managed to talk my dad down into getting a 5.2 surround system instead of the originally proposed 7.2. By the way, the new budget is $20k now, for a 5.2 system w/ a turntable, amp, preamplifier, and receiver...did I mention cables? Anyhow, sorry for the constant changes, and thanks for adapting.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
My dad had a great time at the store today. Too much of a great time. I fear I may have turned him into an audioholic. The people at the store were very helpful, and allowed us to listen and switch out components at our will. About the speakets- my dad especially loved the Bowers and Wilkins CM series, the Energy Veritas series, various Martin Logans, and the Klipsch Reference series. (Not in that order) As for the TV...he...err..umm...bought a freakin NuVision 65'...That was pretty much the equillivant of the old budget... The salespeople, however, managed to talk my dad down into getting a 5.2 surround system instead of the originally proposed 7.2. By the way, the new budget is $20k now, for a 5.2 system w/ a turntable, amp, preamplifier, and receiver...did I mention cables? Anyhow, sorry for the constant changes, and thanks for adapting.
Lolwutski.
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
My dad had a great time at the store today. Too much of a great time. I fear I may have turned him into an audioholic. The people at the store were very helpful, and allowed us to listen and switch out components at our will. About the speakets- my dad especially loved the Bowers and Wilkins CM series, the Energy Veritas series, various Martin Logans, and the Klipsch Reference series. (Not in that order) As for the TV...he...err..umm...bought a freakin NuVision 65'...That was pretty much the equillivant of the old budget... The salespeople, however, managed to talk my dad down into getting a 5.2 surround system instead of the originally proposed 7.2. By the way, the new budget is $20k now, for a 5.2 system w/ a turntable, amp, preamplifier, and receiver...did I mention cables? Anyhow, sorry for the constant changes, and thanks for adapting.
So, to clarify, is the new budget $20K w/o having to include a TV, or really down to $8K now? I'm going to assume it's $20K

Well, at least now you can get the amplifier ADTG was talking about (or a 5 channel version of it). :p.

I would suggest getting a pair of Seaton Submersive HP subwoofers now with a higher budget. That'll run about $5K or so. Denon 4311 will be around $1500-2100 depending on where you get it. The speakers your father will still need to pick out himself, especially if he's limiting himself to what this dealer has.

Just don't let him buy expensive cables for all of this - total waste of money.
 
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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
TV not included.
A quick note-he wants to buy EVERYTHING from the dealer. I did tell him that you can get high quality bang for buck subs online risk free, but he just wouldn't buy it. That being said, I personally am thinking about getting a couple of Epik Legends for myself. :D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Hi, no offense, but I think by sticking with that dealer, your dad is royally limiting his options - settling for mediocre when he could probably have world class.
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
FatmanSize48 said:
A quick note-he wants to buy EVERYTHING from the dealer. I did tell him that you can get high quality bang for buck subs online risk free, but he just wouldn't buy it.
What's his reason for sticking with the dealer?

Hi, no offense, but I think by sticking with that dealer, your dad is royally limiting his options - settling for mediocre when he could probably have world class.
+1.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Hey now, I wouldn't call the selection of brands available "mediocre". There are some truly top-level performers in there. Not necessarily the highest value or "bang-for-the-buck", but certainly not a limitation to only "mediocre" brands.

A NuVision TV? Really? I'm sorry, but I have to shake my head at that one. Your father got taken for a ride with that purchase. A Panasonic TC-P65VT30 with a professional ISF or THX calibration is every bit as good, possibly even better than the NuVision for nearly 1/4 the price. So I'm getting the sense that value really isn't what motivates your father. I'd have to assume now that he goes by "gut" feeling, because there is no measureable or rational reason to choose the NuVision over the Panasonic unless he thinks the small difference in the look of the frame is worth almost $8000 difference!

With the budget growing so quickly and easily and such a unnecessary expenditure on the television, I don't really see any reason to offer any more serious recommendations. Just have your father go to the dealer and let him audition gear and buy what he likes. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't really say there are any truly "bad" choices with the brands that dealer is offering. And they'll be more than happy to let him audition if he's going to be dropping that much cash with them!

He'll probably end up with Macintosh separates at the rate he's going! Even though the Denon 4311 with a good, solid amp would actually be a better choice. If he was somehow swayed into thinking the NuVision was a good idea over the Panasonic VT30, then I can't imagine talking about measureable performance and value for his money is going to mean anything.

He liked a whole smattering of very different sounding speakers, so there is absolutely nothing obvious in terms of characteristic traits that I could point to as a common link between the speakers that he enjoyed. About the only thing is that you did NOT mention the Def Tech or Mirage speakers, so something a little closer to neutral and direct seems to be about the only common trait. Out of the brands you mentioned, the Energy Veritas are about the most neutral and quite easy to drive with any amp, making them a good "middle of the road" choice, IMO. The Klipsch will most easily handle the room size, the Martin Logans would likely struggle the most just in terms of sheer output and dynamics. And the B&W speakers very much have their own character, which many, many people enjoy, but they aren't exactly neutral and they're not overly efficient or inefficient, so a good, beefy amp would drive them fine in the room size.

For subwoofers, my bet is that your father will wind up getting subs that match the brand of the speakers that he chooses, even though that is totally unnecessary and often a good way to spend way more than necessary. Never-the-less, Martin Logan and Paradigm both offer some very capable, but very expensive subwoofers. Klipsch is OK too if you go up to their top-priced subs. Energy doesn't really have much in the way of good subwoofer offerings.

I've no idea why the dealer would convince your father to go 5.2 over 7.2 unless they talked at length about setup and available positions for the speakers and worked out that there simply won't be any good positions for the rear speakers. If your father stressed music over movies, I could see them recommending 5.2 over 7.2 since there are only 5.1 multi-channel music formats, no 7.1 channel music formats. He'll probably wind up with the "rear corner" placement of the surround speakers, which is in line with a multi-channel music setup, but not the traditional movie speaker placement. There's nothing wrong with that, especially if music is more of a priority.

If there is anything that you should absolutely put your foot down on, it's going to be the cables. If he bought a NuVision, there's no sense in trying to sway his speaker, amp and turntable decisions. Let him audition and decide for himself. He'll be happier and the dealer will certainly be happy! But if they try to sell him expensive cables, that's the one place where you should absolutely put your foot down. It might not matter. It's his money and he can waste it if he wants to...clearly. But expensive cables are a PURE waste of money and can ONLY be sold via misinformation and outright bilking.

Honestly, after the NuVision purchase, I don't think I have anything else to offer in the way of advice at this point. It's not that it's a bad TV. It's just that it's the same thing as buying the $3500 Lexicon Blu-ray player when it is LITERALLY the $500 Oppo Blu-ray player with nothing more than a Lexicon case on the outside. There's no sense in it. Not when there's the Panasonic VT30 right there offering the same level of performance for 1/4 the price. Anyone who is that easily swayed by looks, dealer's words or just the allure of a brand name should just audition and buy for themselves. I'd prefer that he buy the Panasonic and donate the difference in price to me, but that doesn't seem to be the way rich people work, so I'll leave it at that :p
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
After reading a bit more about that 65" NuVision TV, I take back what I said about it being the same as buying the $3500 Lexicon Blu-ray player that is literally a $500 Oppo with a Lexicon case. The 65" NuVision is a two-year old Samsung LCD with a 4 year-old video processor selling for triple the price of the best consumer display currently on the market. At least with the Lexicon, you were still getting the best Blu-ray player at the time, just with a crazy price tag. In the case of the NuVision, you're getting a good TV with a crazy price tag, but ignoring the TV that dances circles around it quality-wise for 1/3 the sticker price.

I wash my hands of this nonsense and wish that that $8000 of completely wasted money might have found its way to something useful...or just into my pocket instead.

Why bother...
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
In case anyone thinks I'm being too harsh by essentially trying to shame the OP's father about his NuVision purchase:

I don't think I'm being harsh enough! I find it personally offensive to waste one's money like that. I think it's a slap in the face to have all of the information available to you and then turn around and completely ignore it. Why ask the OP for any sort of input if this is the purchase decision he is going to make? Why claim to not want to allow "some idiot" to waste his money if he's just going to make an idiotic purchase himself?

That's at least $8000 freaking dollars completely thrown away. Many of us could build our entire systems for just the difference in price alone.

I'm not one to tell people to skimp on their home theater purchases. I'd rather see people spend what I consider to be quite a lot of money on a VT30 rather than "settle" for some crappy edge-lit, glossy-screened LCD. I'd rather see people stetch for a really good SVSound or Rythmik sub rather than limit themselves to a Dayton. So I'm all about spending more money for better performance.

But to throw away such a large amount of money on WORSE performance? That's insulting. That's the guy who's buying a friggin' Maserati and gets laughed at by all the guys who know anything about high performance cars. And for all the non-rich guys who LOVE cars, it's a slap in the face because if they had that much money, they wouldn't waste it on a piece of crap Maserati that costs as much to maintain, but can't perform anything like a Ferrari, and then gets blasted in performance by a freakin' Corvette!

People with more money than sense deserve to get shamed. Take two seconds, listen to the people who live and breathe this stuff, and then spend the kind of money that most of us can only dream of on actual performance! It's offensive to waste money this way. That's $8000 that could have gone towards substantially better speakers, WAY better subwoofers - the kind the OP's father is actually going to genuinely need! Or it could have just bought some poor forum member here and entire system that would include a TV that blows away that crappy NuVision!

This kind of crap makes me sick. It makes me feel like trying to help such people is just a complete waste of time and effort. And shame on the people who sold him such an over-priced piece of junk because it demonstrates that they'll all too happily throw their values and knowledge out the window the moment some fool walks in who is so easily parted from his cash.

So go buy some Nordost cables and some Richard Gray's Power Company surge "protectors" (in quotes, since they're more likely to explode your system than protect it. No UL certification, but they claim to offer power safety :rolleyes: )

Do people have the right to waste their own money? Yeah, I suppose they do. But I don't have to like it and I don't have to be nice to the people who do it. Never mind the cliches about how that $8000 could've gone to starving children or some crap; that $8000 could've gone towards better gear!

It's insulting. And I hope the OP's father reads this, realizes how utterly ridiculous it is to waste $8000 on WORSE performance, returns the NuVision and shames that dealer for selling it to him in the first place!
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Those people in LA can sell a blind man sunglasses.

Wow, a NuVision and $8k wasted. To the OP, if your Dad really trusted your opinion, tell him that he's buying a TV clone, take it back. A Panny as GranteedEV recommended will outperform the NuVision for money saved which means that savings can be used on the speakers.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, at least now you can get the amplifier ADTG was talking about (or a 5 channel version of it). :p
No, now I changed my mind since you have hurt my feelings.:p

I recommend a Krell S-1200U for only $12,000:
http://www.audiolab.com/Krell_S_1200U_Surround_Sound_Pre_amp_Processor_p/kres1200u.htm

4 of the Krell 402 Amps for only $16,500 each:
http://www.audiolab.com/Krell_Evolution_402_400_Watt_Per_Channel_Stereo_Am_p/kreevo402.htm

7 of the Revel Salon2 for only $11,000 each:
http://www.audiolab.com/Revel_Salon2_Floorstanding_Loudspeaker_p/revsalon2.htm

3, no 4, no make it 6 of the Def Tech Trinity since it's the most expensive sub available at this store for $3,000 each:
http://www.audiolab.com/Definitive_Technology_SuperCube_Trinity_Subwoofer_p/defsupercubetrinity.htm

And last, but not least, a Bugatti Veyron:

 

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