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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
*Note:This is not for me, but my father, who wants HT system but doesn't want to "piss money on some idiot who will buy $#!T for you." He offered me the task-but I obviously don't know $#!T so that is why I am here.

He wants a TV, a 7.1 audio system, a turntable, and a preamplifier. That is it. He is not changing the room, which is 30x20 room w/ a carpet floor. All he will do is watch movies and listen to music, with more of the latter.

He is retired and will not spend a cent over $12k, but he did say to exclude sales tax and shipping.

I hope you will help me help a man who deserves a quality HT.
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
To me, a $12,000 budget and the level of quality that you seem to be after for your father dictate to me that you should really aim to do this right, and not just "quick" or "easy".

To that end, it would help us a lot to get some more info from you before we start to recommend gear.

The biggest thing to know is that the room and the gear have to work together. A home theater is a system, and the room - and where things are placed within that room - are just as much a part of that system as all of the fancy gear.

You've said that your father doesn't want to make any changes to the room. Does that also mean that he has furniture placed within the room that he is not willing to move? Does it also mean that he is not willing to hang anything on the walls in order to potentially improve the acoustics?

You've said that the room is roughly 20' x 30'. How high is the ceiling? Also, is it an enclosed room, or does it have openings to any other rooms or areas of the house? Is it truly a rectangle, or does it have any angles or crop-outs or bay windows or anything?

Basically, I'd just like to know as much about the room and the things that cannot be changed first, so that we can then make recommendations that will work WITH your father's room, rather than against it ;)

If you are able to post any diagrams or photos, that would be a great help!

I would also strongly urge you to go over to Auralex.com and take advantage of their FREE Room Analysis. It is free, so the price should not be an issue :p More than the recommendations that you will get back from Auralex, what is really so valuable about the free Room Analysis is that it will force you to sit down and do some really good planning. You will get to draw out a rough diagram of the room and plan on where the furniture will be placed and such. It will get you to notice where doors and windows are placed in the room, and any odd angles or crop-outs or open connections to other rooms.

When you complete the Room Analysis, Auralex will make suggestions for acoustic treatments that are the most likely to benefit the acoustics in your room. Naturally, Auralex will recommend their own products! (duh). But you do not have to buy or use any of Auralex' suggestions. I would recommend that you come back here after going through the Room Analysis. You will have a much better understanding of your room when you do, and that is going to help you, but also help us to make better recommendations for the gear!

Like I said, you have the space and the budget and the desire to really do this right. So please, take the time and the effort to plan this out and give it the attention it deserves! So many people just get all excited and start buying gear right away because that is the fun and "sexy" part. But trust me, the planning is MUCH more important! Buying the best gear, but setting it up poorly or crippling it by putting it in a "bad" room just isn't the way to go. Instead, plan ahead, maybe wind up spending a little bit less on the gear, but set it all up properly and spend some money on making the room itself a better environment and you will be MUCH happier in the long run!

Your dad didn't want "some idiot" who's just going to spend his hard-earned money on gear that doesn't perform! So I am hopeful that he will agree that a little bit more time spent on the planning is well worth the wait if it means a much better system in the end.

So please, head on over to Auralex.com. Use the free Room Analysis. Come back here to the forum when you've gone through those forms. And I promise you that you will end up with a much better system than if we just throw out a bunch of sexy gear recommendations without any consideration of how they will be placed or how the room will interact with them.

M'kay?

:D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I didn't really do any big time bargain-hunting so the total cost might be lower than the suggestions I'm giving you, depending on where you buy them, but here's what I'd do:

He wants a TV, a 7.1 audio system, a turntable, and a preamplifier. That is it. He is not changing the room, which is 30x20 room w/ a carpet floor. All he will do is watch movies and listen to music, with more of the latter.
For a TV, I would get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-VIERA-TC-P55GT30-55-Inch-Plasma/dp/B004MME76A/ref=lh_ni_t

or this

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004MNADZS/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=A3ACU7TJEUXKOF

Both should be a sweet choice.

This processor:

http://www.dakmart.com/p12180/DENON-AVR-4311CI-9.2-CHANNEL- NETWORK-MLTI-ROOM-RECEIVER/product_info.html

It should have a quality phono stage. Go into the menu and turn the amplifiers off and it will be an absolute processor. This is a refurb, but it's also got a 1 year warranty and it's Made in Japan, and is otherwise a rather high end unit.

Rather than one sub, I recommend three strategically placed - this will give the best sound quality in a real room. The Rythmik F15 would be my suggestion:

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F15.html

Integrating three subs will not be easy but the end payoff will be well worth it. The denon's SubEQ will allow you to integrate two subs together, but with three subs, you need one extra electronic. I recommend the SVS AS-EQ1

http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm

This will intregrate two subs together as well. Done properly this should mean you have the ability to equalize, time align, and phase align three different subs properly. It will be well worth it.

This leaves $5500 for a turntable and some speakers. To be honest, I am going to recommend skipping rear surrounds - 7.1 is extremely underutilized and doesn't offer too much TBQH. There are better ways to get an immersive surround field than throwing speakers at it.

Before a turntable and speakers though, do you need a bluray player? Why not an Oppo? It will not only play blu rays, dvds, cds, but also DVD-A and SACD.

http://www.oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-93

That cuts us down to $5000 - what is a good budget for a turntable? 500? I really will let our turntable experts deal with this because this stuff is way over my head. I don't want to feed you misinformation so I won't give you any. If it were me, I'd look on the used market for older stuff:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?anlgtabl&1316645100&/Thorens-TD-134-Vintage-Turntab

But I`m also not too comprehending of all the intricacies in getting turntables to be great, or how to accesorise them.

So now we're down to ~4500, right? Speakers are going to be difficult. I guess first you have to decide how important the center speaker is to you. Some of the best options out there might not come with the best center, if any at all. I'm somewhat convinced that until you hit a certain price point, a center just isn't worthwhile. The reason I saved speakers for last is because i'm basically just going to give you lists and let you examine and contemplate.

Front speakers (With no center) - 2 of these:
http://philharmonicaudio.com/philharmonic3.html

Front speakers (With center) - 3 of these:
http://jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/triple-8ht-lp/
or
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LSR4328P/

Front speakers (With center) - 2 of these plus the matching C
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Verus-Grand-Tower-Speaker,267,89,803.aspx
or
http://www.accessories4less.com/index.php?page=search&search_query=KEF+Q900&x=0&y=0

For surrounds, the accompanying lesser models for any of the above options should suffice - IE LSR 2326, Verus Forte Bookshelf, Q100- just don't spend a world where you don't need to. Like I said, I don't feel afraid of recommending 5.1 over 7.1 if the budget calls for it.

Is there anything else I would like to add? If there's any money left in that budget at the end of it all, purchase some diffusion panels and bass traps. The diffusion at the back of the room should improve the sense of spaciousness and immersion of surrounds, and the bass traps in the front corners and walls should tighten up bass response while also absorbing some reflections from the surrounds (which you don't want reflecting off the front of the room). Placement is of course very important, and i found the best way to figure out optimal placement is to measure bass response.

I use this microphone with this preamp . Just a great investment for dialing in things like placement. And you might consider picking up a spectrometer or whatever they're called. This will let you dial in the greyscale of your television to as close to optimal. Proper Setup/Calibration is extremely worthwhile if you want to squeeze the most out of your purchase :D

Am I forgetting anything? Probably not :D. *shrug* If going with passive speakers (most of the above listed, except for the JBLs which have built in amps) Adding a two or three channel amp to drive them might not be a bad idea. Not ridiculously necessary but it never hurt, especially in an above average sized room. The Emotiva XPA-3 would be a sweet investment.

For TV Mounts and cabling, check out www.monoprice.com - it is our Go-To source for not overpaying for basics - I use 12awg but even 16awg speaker wire should be perfectly acceptable.
For TV Stands, I use an init stand from best buy. It is surprisingly awesome.

And finally, a couple 20A power lines never hurt anyone :D
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
On the video side, once again, the room will dictate a lot.

The position of the seating is going to dictate the distance from eyes to the TV screen. The distance from eyes to screen will determine what size the TV screen should be.

There is also the room's lighting to consider. Will your father be watching movies in: pitch blackness, dim lighting, "normal" room lighting, bright lighting or a sunlit room?

Many people are surprised at just how large the recommended TV screen size can be! There is a group called SMPTE (the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers) and they recommend that for movies and HDTV, your screen should fill a 30 degree field of view and not less than a 22 degree field of view. Just as an example, if the distance from eyes to screen is 10 feet, a 30 degree field of view would require a 74" diagonal screen! That's a lot bigger than most people use or expect. The "minimum" 22 degree field of view from 10 feet away would be a 53.5" diagonal screen. That's a lot closer to the sort of size that most people use, but you should realize that you aren't really getting the full impact and immersion that movie and television directors intended when you are only using the "minimum" screen size.

In a 20' x 30' room, there's a high likelihood that your father is sitting quite far away from the TV. So it is possible - perhaps even likely - that he will need a VERY large TV screen in order to meet the SMPTE's recommendations.

If the room is pitch black or very dim when he is watching movies, then a front projection system will likely be the best choice. But if there is "normal" room lighting on when he watches movies, a front projector and screen is going to "wash out" and not look very good at all. You might then want to consider a very large rear projection television from Mitsubishi - they make TVs as large as 92"!

If the distance from the seats to the the screen is short enough, a large flat panel, like a 65" plasma might be OK. But if the room is brightly lit or sunlit, a very large LCD might wind up as the better choice.

So, again...planning. You need to figure out where the seating is going to go and where you want to position the screen so that we can figure out what size and what type of TV is going to be best for your father. The distance from eyes to screen and the room's lighting are the two most important factors, so if you can let us know about those, we can recommend a really great screen for your father ;)

Auralex' Room Analysis will help you to figure out and plan where the seating will go and where the TV screen will go, so again, please take advantage of that free service!

Hope this helps :)
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
This processor:

http://www.dakmart.com/p12180/DENON-AVR-4311CI-9.2-CHANNEL- NETWORK-MLTI-ROOM-RECEIVER/product_info.html

It should have a quality phono stage. This is a refurb, but it's also got a 1 year warranty and it's Made in Japan, and is otherwise a rather high end unit.
I'd like to correct a couple of things on there. I bought that exact model from DAKMART about a month ago. It has been in the shop the last 2 weeks, since I had no sound coming out of mine whatsoever after I set it up (not even Audyssey test tones). Basically, DAKMART sold me a lemon, and it's cheaper to use the 90 day (not 1 year) B-Stock Warranty than to return it. So, I'm having a bit of buyer's remorse in not spending ~$200 more from somewhere like EE and getting a new from the factory model. Which is unfortunate, since I've purchased Denon refurbs from various sellers in the past and they've worked just fine. I would suggest to the OP look for a NEW model below MSRP.

I would also disagree with your assertion of buying three subs and buying the SVS AS-EQ1. That functionality is already in the receiver and I think he'd be better off taking that $1650 ($750 AS-EQ1 + $900 F15) and plowing the savings into two higher quality subs (maybe getting Rythmik F25's instead) and some measurement gear.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I'd like to correct a couple of things on there. I bought that exact model from DAKMART about a month ago. It has been in the shop the last 2 weeks, since I had no sound coming out of mine whatsoever after I set it up (not even Audyssey test tones). Basically, DAKMART sold me a lemon, and it's cheaper to use the 90 day (not 1 year) B-Stock Warranty than to return it. So, I'm having a bit of buyer's remorse in not spending ~$200 more from somewhere like EE and getting a new from the factory model. Which is unfortunate, since I've purchased Denon refurbs from various sellers in the past and they've worked just fine. I would suggest to the OP look for a NEW model below MSRP.
That is unfortunate. Hopefully things work out for you.

However the website does clearly indicate it's a 1y warranty:

WE "DAKMART" offer an exclusive 1 year warranty on these items, unlike others who only offer the standard 90 day warranty.
I would also disagree with your assertion of buying three subs and buying the SVS AS-EQ1. That functionality is already in the receiver
The receiver has two sub outputs. IT will not integrate three subs as well as possible. Adding an AS-EQ1 will allow you to EQ/Time align/level match two subs off of one sub output, and then have those be measured as one sub by the denon's setup and another, third sub viewed by the other. This should give very flat measured bass.

You could probably save some money and get a different signal processor to handle the time delay / levels of the second (and third/fourth) sub (IE MiniDSP for around $150) but I was trying to keep the process as simple as possible for the thread starter. If using a miniDSP for example, I would get a much cheaper receiver like a Marantz SR6004. Again, the automatic setup of the audyssey would keep things simple, but if a manual setup is acceptable, then I highly recommend saving a good chunk (over $1300) of money on electronics. It depends how convoluted you want to make it. The EQ of the audyssey also uses FIR filters, which makes it more acceptable to use than IIR filters which are akin to playing with fire.

and I think he'd be better off taking that $1650 ($750 AS-EQ1 + $900 F15) and plowing the savings into two higher quality subs (maybe getting Rythmik F25's instead) and some measurement gear.
The F25s will have more deep bass and/or output. However I disagree that two subs are prefered over three, especially for a music-first setup where bass quality is paramount, not bass quantity. The F15s are fairly capable subs as it is, and may be about as physically large as the thread starter wants to go.
 
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templemaners

Senior Audioholic
That is unfortunate. Hopefully things work out for you.
So do I. I'm just happy there happens to be a regional super service center in town instead of shipping it to who knows where.

However the website does clearly indicate it's a 1y warranty:
Thanks for pointing that out. Hopefully this will be the last time I have to use that warranty. :eek:

The receiver has two sub outputs. IT will not integrate three subs as well as possible. Adding an AS-EQ1 will allow you to EQ/Time align/level match two subs off of one sub output, and then have those be measured as one sub by the denon's setup and another, third sub viewed by the other. This should give very flat measured bass.
Ok, at first I didn't quite understand what you were saying by this, but your plan is to send a Y split signal to the AS-EQ1 to handle two subs, and then have the third be handled internally within the 4311... interesting. The question I would have is, would the 4311's internal SubEQ alter/change the settings from the AS-EQ1? Since you're telling the OP to get 3 subs, I'm going to assume your advocating a Geddes style setup. I'd be nervous about that split signal if the distances/time alignment/etc. of those subs are different.

Personally, I like the Toole set up of even number multiples, but that's getting too OT.

You could probably save some money and get a different signal processor to handle the time delay / levels of the second (and third/fourth) sub (IE MiniDSP for around $150) but I was trying to keep the process as simple as possible for the thread starter. If using a miniDSP for example, I would get a much cheaper receiver like a Marantz SR6004. Again, the automatic setup of the audyssey would keep things simple, but if a manual setup is acceptable, then I highly recommend saving a good chunk (over $1300) of money on electronics. It depends how convoluted you want to make it. The EQ of the audyssey also uses FIR filters, which makes it more acceptable to use than IIR filters which are akin to playing with fire.
Spot on as usual. Fatman, your receiver/electronics set up is somewhat dependent on how much you two want to measure & tweak. If you're up for that, something like a MiniDSP and a cheaper receiver could be a beneficial option. IF you want minimal setup (comparatively), a receiver like the 4311 is a better option.

The F25s will have more deep bass and/or output. However I disagree that two subs are prefered over three, especially for a music-first setup where bass quality is paramount, not bass quantity. The F15s are fairly capable subs as it is, and may be about as physically large as the thread starter wants to go.
That's partially dependent on whether the OP's father in law would want 3 boxes around the room vs. 2. We need Fatman to chime in on this aspect. :) Needless to say, we're in agreement that he'd benefit from 2 or more subs. I do still think that since his F-I-L is looking for a 7 channel system, he's going to need to allocate more to speakers, so extra electronics could unnecessarily chew up his budget.

One other aspect of the plan that you might need to further evaluate is the Blu-Ray player. While the Oppo is a quality piece, if he doesn't have any DVD-A or SACD's, he might be able to get away with a less expensive BRP and put that saved cash into the speakers/subs or the turntable (since I'm clueless on what to look for & how much a good one is too).
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Since you're telling the OP to get 3 subs, I'm going to assume your advocating a Geddes style setup. I'd be nervous about that split signal if the distances/time alignment/etc. of those subs are different.

Personally, I like the Toole set up of even number multiples, but that's getting too OT.
The signal is split, but then the time alignment and distances are fixed by the SVS unit because they are now a discrete, parallel signal.

The Welti approach to multiple subs is not unvalid. It really is the same goal as the Geddes approach (loading the room from different locations in order to excite different room modes and spatial averaging).

The difference is, Welti only suggests midwall, symmetrical placement in a perfectly rectangular room because that is what he has examined

The Geddes approach is just an extension of that, but he's examined both symmetrical (4 subwoofers in a rectangular room, equal distance apart) and asymmetrical (3 subwoofers, any room, strategic placement determined by measurements / trial and error) and found the results to be the same (IE the fourth sub doesn't contribute much if the setups are properly done, and even optimal positionings non rectangular rooms can be found). Obviously the latter approach is more realistic in real world rooms rather than custom cinema rooms. Both approachs work equally, when setup with the right time alignment and level matching. Technically, a true geddes approach uses three different subwoofer alignments altogether, and one above the vertical center line of the room. But the philosophy is the important part, imo.

Regarding your concerns, think of it like this.

First Time align/level match the subs off the SVS unit. Once they are time aligned, they will behave as ONE unit. The denon will "hear" the aligned response of that "one unit" when it is level matching it to the third sub.

One other aspect of the plan that you might need to further evaluate is the Blu-Ray player. While the Oppo is a quality piece, if he doesn't have any DVD-A or SACD's,
Maybe. But I was under the impression it was going to be a music system, and if there's good SACDs out there, they'd be worth buying. Might as well get a blu ray player that can play them!

Otherwise, a cheapo $80 panasonic etc. Blu Ray player should be perfectly fine. :)
 
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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
Everyone-thank you very much for your time and opinions. I would first like to start off by answering everyone's questions.

FirstReflection- There is a set of windows running along the whole right side of the room. The room IS a perfect rectangle with a ceiling height of 18 feet. Room treatments are out of the question, but the furniture can be shuffled around or even moved to another room. There are extremely large wooden plantation slats (I don't remember what they are really called) that allow the room to be immersed in total darkness, even during the day. As a result, I don't think an LCD TV would be necessary. The viewing distance would be from about 10 feet away, with the TV the front 20 ft wall. Seating is already there; A leviathan sofa, a matching ottoman, and two chairs. There IS a bar on the rear 20 ft wall, along with a single door.

GranteedEV- Buying used is out of question. The local AV guy who got me all my gear (at about 20% off on average) gave me a free installation, along with a free setup and walkthrough, which he was very patient on. (Even TV wall mounting, plus free parts) The difference in sound, before and after setup, was quite noticable. Anyhow, I hope to use him again for buying my equipment, but he carries only brick and mortar brands- I called him up and he said a free installation for my dad would be OK too. He carries MartinLogan, Definitive Technology, Monitor Audio, Energy, Mirage, Klipsch, Paradigm, Bowers and Wilkins, REL, Denon. Marantz, Panasonic, NuVision, and Pro-ject. He also carries McIntosh but that seems a little too expensive. As to the Blu-ray, SACD, and CD players, he already a vast array of them. When factoring price, take about 15% off the MSRP- I'd like to be on the conservative side of overall cost. Also, I think only two big a$$ subs would be just dandy.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Since that guy carriers Pro-ject how about a Pro-Ject's Debut III turntable. The Debut III is like a "plug and play turntable and for $350 is includes a Pro-Ject 8.6 tonearm and an Ortofon OM 5E moving-magnet cartridge. The cartridge comes installed and aligned so all you need do is install the counterweight, set the tracking and antiskating forces, unlock the motor transport screw, and you're ready to go.
 
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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
I have one myself. I upgraded the cartridge to a Sumiko Pearl, and it sounds great...my dad has listened to it, and he did like it, but he said, "only if this company made an even nicer turntable."
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
but he said, "only if this company made an even nicer turntable."
I take it you have never looked at the Pro-ject line. Pro-Ject RPM 10.1 Evolution $2499.00. or even higher and nicer quality the Pro-Ject Xtension from $4000 - $8000. Not really sure a normal person could really identify a $500+ table vs a $4000/$8000 table just by listening to vinyl as there is so much more in the input and output lines. So how much nicer does he want.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Take a few pics of the room and show us a floor plan. :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
BenQ W6000 for $1,889 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002NY9JJ4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER

I own the BenQ W6000 and after 1 yr, I am still as impressed as I was the first day I got it. I also bought the SquareTrade 4 yr warranty, but hopefully I won't need it.:D

Elite Screens 120” Fixed 16:9 screen for $481 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/Elite-Screens-EzFrame-Projection-Screen/dp/B000YUG02S/ref=sr_1_19?s=electronics&rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1312680545&sr=1-19

Denon AVR03311 for $816 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-3311CI-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B003LVZYNI/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1312680749&sr=1-3

ATI AT2007 200WPC x 7Ch Amp for $2,195 (+ shipping):
http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at2007-five-channel-x-200-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120-v.html

KEF Q900 Front 3 Speakers (L/C/R) $800 each x 3 for $2,400 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/KEF-Q900BL-Black-Floorstanding-Speaker/dp/B0048LTAEO/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1312680931&sr=1-2


Home Theater Magazine & Stereophile both reviewed & measured the KEF Q900 speakers and said these are among the best speakers out there for $2K/pr. John Atkinson also said the Q900 measured superbly, which is not taken lightly since he rarely says that about any other speakers. The only other speakers I can remember John Atkinson saying as measuring "Superbly" are the Revel Salon2, KEF 207/2, and KEF 201/2 speakers.


KEF Q300 Surround Side and Back Speakers $600/pr x 2pr = $1,200 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/KEF-Q300BL-Bookshelf-Speaker-Black/dp/B0047K0036/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1312682570&sr=1-2

Raxxess ERSS-42 42” Speaker Stands $139/pr x 2pr = $278 (shipped)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ERSS42/
(I bought some cheap sand from Home Depot, filled some zip-lock bags with sand, and placed sand bags inside these stands. They now weigh about 30lbs each.)

Rythmik FV15HP Subwoofer x 2 = $2,430 (includes 10% off for 2 subs + $135 shipping each sub)
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/fv15hp.html

Total = $11,589

That leaves $311 for turntable.:D
 
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FatmanSize48

Audioholic Intern
Room-update
My dad is adding on to the house to make a "sun room" and he will have another bar there-he intends on taking the bar out from the HT room and recycling some of the parts in the new bar. *There really is no need for a diagram- there is a 20x30 room, 20 ft ceiling, with double doors on one 20 ft wall and a row of windows going down one of the 30 ft walls. Please treat this as an empty room with carpet only- things can be rearranged (or I can get the furniture for myself :D) The viewing distance of the TV (He does NOT, repeat, NOT want a projector) will be from 10-15 feet.

I have been going through your suggestions, and yes, I appreciate them, but I have noticed that I've only seen 1 suggestion from the brands that my local audio guy carries-are they not good companies?


*Not with a hostile tone
 
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FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Alrighty!

If acoustic treatments are out of the question, then that is a pretty serious consideration for your choice of speakers. There are kind of two ways that you can look to address your room's acoustics with your choice of speakers alone: you can go for speakers with very narrow dispersion that sort of "beam" the sound to where they are pointed and thus, interact as little as possible with the room itself, or you can go for speakers with extremely even off-axis response so that the reflected sound will at least be predictable and that wonderful computer in your head that we call a brain will have a somewhat easier time "filtering" the audio that it receives.

This is a very large room - well over 10,000 cubic feet and as much as 12,000 cubic feet if the ceiling is 20 feet high rather than the 18 feet high that you mentioned first. Regardless of the ceiling height, the size of the room is going to demand some very, very capable subwoofers and it would not hurt at all to also use efficient speakers that are capable of high output levels.

You have a nice selection of some very good speaker brands available to you through your dealer. But you also have options in that list that have rather distinct "characters" to the sound. Klipsch, for example, might be a very good choice since their speakers are extremely efficient, capable of very loud output and tend to "beam" a bit. But there is definitely a "character" to Klipsch speakers. Your father might really like that particular character, or he might hate it! An audition would certainly be necessary.

I'm quite a fan of Paradigm's Signature line of speakers, but their largest towers and center speaker would eat up the budget rather quickly! I'm not as much of a fan of their "Reference Studio" line, which I personally find to be overpriced for the performance.

Martin Logan, with their electrostatic speakers, could be a good option as they tend to have a narrow "sweet spot" and limited dispersion. But they aren't the most dynamic speakers and being a true di-pole, they will still interact a lot with the room's acoustics.

It's a tough decision! Speakers can be such a personal preference and in a large, acoustically untreated room, it's really going to depend mostly on what your father likes.

If you are willing to consider an internet direct brand, a good option would be Aperion Audio's Verus line of speakers. They can play very loud with almost no distortion and they measure very nicely in real rooms, not just anechoic chambers ;)

As I mentioned, you're going to want a tremendously capable subwoofer setup. From my own auditions, I was extremely impressed with the newest SVSound PB13-Ultra DSP subwoofer and a pair of those would have the output capabilities and audio quality to work well in that room. Certainly, the brands that your dealer carries also offer very good subwoofer options, but you won't find the same level of output and quality for the same low price as what SVSound offers with the PB13-Ultra DSP. As others have suggested, Rythmik also offers some very good subwoofers, but the SVSound Ultra is even a cut above those, IMO. The slightly smaller, slightly less expensive "Plus" models from SVSound are pretty much neck-and-neck with Rythmik's best offerings.

If you can control the lighting in the room and a front projector is "out of the question", then the most obvious choice is a 65" plasma from Panasonic. If the distance from seats to TV screen is closer to 10', then the 65" size would work quite nicely. If the distance is closer to 15' though, that 65" size is going to be too small. At 15' from the screen, the smallest size you would want would be 80" and 110" would actually be the SMPTE recommended size at 15' !

So if the seating distance is further than 10", I'd recommend giving serious consideration to a Mitsubishi rear projection DLP. Without question, the Panasonic plasma's picture quality is better. But there's no replacement for sheer size! If a front projection is a no-go, Mitshubishi is the only game left in town for very large, rear projection televisions. As I said, Mitsu offers screen sizes from 72" up to 92", so keep them in mind if the seating distance calls for that larger size option!

For my money, there isn't much of a better option in a receiver than the Denon 4311 right now. The processing and input options are second to none. And if you go with efficient speakers like the Klipsch, it can even power them just fine on its own. In such a large room though, it's likely that you'll want a separate amplifier for at least the front 3 speakers. Thankfully, the Denon 4311 can easily connect to a separate amp for more power.

I won't throw out a meaningless recommendation for a turntable since that is not at all my area of expertise ;)

Honestly, with acoustic treatments being a no-go, the most important thing you can do is audition, audition, audition! I wouldn't say that there are really any "bad" choices out of the list of brands that your local dealer carries. But that doesn't mean you father won't have a favorite among them! My own personal experience would strongly ward me away from speakers that interact heavily with the room's acoustics, such as the Def Tech and Mirage speakers. But, then again, some people absolutely love the "big" and "spacious" sound that those speakers create, especially in very large rooms where the walls are far enough away that they can really "breathe", which basically just means that the reflections come from far enough away that you brain has enough time to tell reflections from direct sound ;)

So audition speakers like crazy, and audition IN THE ROOM if at all possible. You're not going to be able to "tune" the room to the speakers, so you'll have to be careful to pick speakers that "play nicely" with the room...and with your father's tastes!

Hopefully this will be helpful. I'd say the Denon 4311 is a fairly easy pick. I'd also say a 65" Panny plasma is a fairly easy choice unless the seating distance demands a larger screen size, in which case Mitsubishi is pretty much your only option. Go hog wild on the subwoofers, because that room size is going to gobble up bass! The speakers are going to be all about personal taste. But don't dismiss internet brands out of hand - I think the Aperion Verus in particular might be a real winner in your case :)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
He does NOT, repeat, NOT want a projector...will be from 10-15 feet.
Mitsubishi 73-Inch 3D DLP HDTV for $1,450:
http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73738-73-Inch-DLP-HDTV/dp/B003HJ5CKE/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&rps=1&ie=UTF8&qid=1312730316&sr=1-2

Denon AVR03311 for $816 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-3311CI-7-2-Channel-Network-Receiver/dp/B003LVZYNI/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1312680749&sr=1-3

ATI AT1805 180WPC x 5Ch Amp for $1,595 (+ shipping):
http://www.classicaudioparts.com/index.php/amplifiers/ati-at1805-five-channel-x-180-watt-amplifier-b-stock-120v.html

KEF Q900 Front 3 Speakers (L/C/R) $800 each x 3 for $2,400 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/KEF-Q900BL-Black-Floorstanding-Speaker/dp/B0048LTAEO/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1312680931&sr=1-2

KEF Q300 Surround Side and Back Speakers $600/pr x 2pr = $1,200 (shipped):
http://www.amazon.com/KEF-Q300BL-Bookshelf-Speaker-Black/dp/B0047K0036/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1312682570&sr=1-2

Raxxess ERSS-42 42” Speaker Stands $139/pr x 2pr = $278 (shipped)
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ERSS42/
(I bought some cheap sand from Home Depot, filled some zip-lock bags with sand, and placed sand bags inside these stands. They now weigh about 30lbs each.)

Rythmik FV15HP Subwoofer x 2 = $2,430 (includes 10% off for 2 subs + $135 shipping each sub)
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/subs/fv15hp.html

Grand Total Shipped: $10,169
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
C'mon, he shouldn't be spending 18-20% of his budget on an amplifier... :rolleyes:
Is that written in stone?


If he did want an amp, a 3 channel amp would be a better use of funds, like a XPA-3, and let the receiver handle the other 4 channels.
Why should he have to settle for an Emotiva when he could afford something with higher quality parts?

Or perhaps he just desires to buy something that is made right here in the USA if possible?

Or perhaps he prefers a 7 yr warranty over a 5 yr warranty?

Or perhaps he prefers the Fuse-less technology of the ATI amp and not want to risk having a blown fuse in the Emotiva down the road?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
For my money, there isn't much of a better option in a receiver than the Denon 4311 right now.
I agree 100%. I think he should get the 4311 also.

But maybe some people think you can't spend 18-20% of your budget on preamps!:eek:
 
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