120 hertz too good?

[rekced]

LCD vs. plasma is a completely different debate and discussion and has little to do with 120hz displays and more importantly, motion adapte frame interpolation.

It is a debate between LCD and Plasma because what the OP was seeing was motion interpolation, the band-aid to make LCDs look appealing. That is what prompted him to make this thread.

At the end of the day when you're running a 24p signal:

-LCD with 60hz is kinda gross
-LCD with 120hz/frame interpolation is extremely gross
-Plasma with 60hz & 3:2 pull down or 48hz is pretty fun
-120hz in its true form doesn't really exist in this market yet.

 

[lsiberian]

Yeah, I have tried to redeem plasmas with certain people, but it NEVER works. Most of the time it was a Vizio purchased years ago and something in the electronics died prematurely because of AmTran's superb "American quality". It's the same case here. We have a low end LG with most likely an extreme case temporary IR caused from a cheap sub par screen, vivid mode and cheap electronics generating a lot of heat.

I did a quick study about six months on about TV brands by finding out what TVs are returned to stores due to quality issues. As a whole, Panasonic plasma was more reliable than most LCD makers besides Sony. I would collect the states again next year to report all of the results of the 2009 models, but I know it wouldn't make a difference to those people who have already made up their mind.

This seems to reflect the industry long term standard of reliability in CRTs. I never saw a sony break. And I don't about a Panasonic either. Magnavox was a different story altogether. As where other brands.

 

[BMXTRIX]

It is a debate between LCD and Plasma because what the OP was seeing was motion interpolation, the band-aid to make LCDs look appealing. That is what prompted him to make this thread.

Yes, but the plasma vs. lcd debate is not the same as the frame interpolation debate. Plasma never has the look of frame interpolation because it isn't necessary and looks extremely artificial. At the end of the day, some of the newest 120hz LCD panels with localized LED lighting are getting extremely high marks for overall quality. They do NOT pass the Kuro displays, or the good Panasonics, but I would bet they are better than most of the other plasmas on the market. So, if the choice is a good LCD or a cheaper plasma, then the good LCD will best it most of the time. But, if frame interpolation is on, then it will always look like a low budget cartoon.

At the end of the day when you're running a 24p signal:

-LCD with 60hz is kinda gross

Actually, it's more similar to older plasma displays, but yes, it isn't the best.

-LCD with 120hz/frame interpolation is extremely gross

I agree completely. Yet, the addition of edge enhancement and the separation of moving forground objects from background objects creates a unique look that many people find appealing.

-Plasma with 60hz & 3:2 pull down or 48hz is pretty fun

At 60hz you get judder, which is why having a plasma which properly handled 1080p/24 sources properly using 2:2 or 3:3 is fairly important and produces the best image currently available on the market from the best displays.

-120hz in its true form doesn't really exist in this market yet.

120hz sources don't, but a 120hz lcd without using frame interpolation does exist. In fact, many of them exist, and a good implementation of the technology is pretty easily comparible to many of the plasma displays out there.

Keep in mind, for people who are avid gamers with LONG periods of stagnant displays, and bright rooms, lcd offers some unique advantages which plasma has yet to be able to deal with. Most notably the glare from the glass screen and uneven phosphor wear.

None of which have anything to do with frame interpolation or 120hz.

Here is a list of displays, including front projection, lcd, and plasma, which accept 1080p/24 and properly display them at multiples of the original frame rate...
http://forums.highdefdigest.com/home-theater-gear/25688-displays-support-1080p-24-signal-multiplies-original-frame-rate.html

 

[Pyrrho]

Wow, LCD gets no love here.


I just ditched my LG plasma for 120hz Samsung because of image retention. The plasma has a wonderful picture but the image retention ruined it.

It is interesting how some are so rabidly pro-plasma that they anonymously give red "chicklets" to someone for posting that one should look at the advantages and disadvantages of both plasma and LCD, and think about how one will use the set, and then decide. I got one for the post at:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=520330&postcount=14

Of course, most fans of plasma TVs don't do such things. However, it is unfortunate that not everyone is willing to express their opinions openly in a forum but prefer anonymous name calling:

Fan this you toad.

How nice and beneficial such a comment is.

 

[panzeroceania]

basically wait for FED displays to hit the consumer market and all will be well.

 

[rekced]

How nice and beneficial such a comment is.

If it was done out of spite for your TV preference, that's stupid. You're just talking to fans of the underdog TV technology who can objectively say their picture is superior where accuracy is preferred and give a list of reasons why. LCD guys talk about burn-in and uneven phosphor wear.

Did you know that new Panasonics last longer than fluorescent-based LCDs (100,000 hours until half life or 10 years running 24/7/365) and takes more than 100 straight hours of a still image on the screen to even have minor burn-in? That's even with the anti-image retention feature turned off according to a rep I talked to. And you're going to try to knock plasma with that?

It's also hard for inexperienced people to identify burn-in. Most of the time it is temporary and after a couple weeks the person on the forum forgets it ever happened.

 

[juggy4805]

If it was done out of spite for your TV preference, that's stupid. You're just talking to fans of the underdog TV technology who can objectively say their picture is superior where accuracy is preferred and give a list of reasons why. LCD guys talk about burn-in and uneven phosphor wear.

Did you know that new Panasonics last longer than fluorescent-based LCDs (100,000 hours until half life or 10 years running 24/7/365) and takes more than 100 straight hours of a still image on the screen to even have minor burn-in? That's even with the anti-image retention feature turned off according to a rep I talked to. And you're going to try to knock plasma with that?

It's also hard for inexperienced people to identify burn-in. Most of the time it is temporary and after a couple weeks the person on the forum forgets it ever happened.

According to a rep you talked to? Have you tried this yourself? After 100 hours the TV will not have the slightest bit of IR? That seems impossible.

 

[rekced]

According to a rep you talked to? Have you tried this yourself? After 100 hours the TV will not have the slightest bit of IR? That seems impossible.

Yes, you would have a lot of image retention... Temporary image retention. I can see some people freaking out about that not taking the time to figure out that it's temporary.

No. I haven't left one on for quite 100 hours, but I leave DVD menus on all night once in a while when I fall asleep. A few times I didn't discover them until the next afternoon. Also think about this.. 99% of what I watch is movies on DVD or Blu-Ray encoded in 2.39:1. Don't you think after some time I would get uneven phosphor wear in that area from never using the cells in the top and bottom? The fact is uneven black levels do appear in that area, but the picture always evens itself out within a short time. The longest it ever took me to wash away IR was about 6 hours (just used the zoom mode instead of 1:1). That was when the panel was new and I was playing video games nonstop. These days when annoying IR appears it takes 5-10 minutes and it's completely gone. Truthfully I never even think about it anymore.

 

[rekced]

120hz sources don't, but a 120hz lcd without using frame interpolation does exist. In fact, many of them exist, and a good implementation of the technology is pretty easily comparible to many of the plasma displays out there.
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120hz LCD without frame interpolation on running 24p still shows some panel blurring and is difficult to tell apart from a 60hz TV. If they really did it, chances are the good brands would ditch the frame interpolation feature immediately. My point is, I don't think these panels can display 120hz well enough to be called true 120hz.

 

[jostenmeat]

Man, I saw yet another stupid LCD in a beautiful home last night. Sigh. It just blows my mind how often people get the inferior display.

I would never consider an LCD for myself. Ever.

I, in fact, find the performance delta to be so great that I simply discriminate, for better or worse, and dismiss any PQ reviews of any titles if the reviewer is using an LCD. This has been true for a while, and I research just about every title before purchase. I am not saying that aren't some nice LCD panels out there, also well calibrated, but the discrimination I hold just makes life easier for me.

Then you take persons like Pyrrho who not only uses LCD, but also disdains Bluray.... well, you can be sure I don't give the slightest credit to any picture quality review he may ever offer, if the format he disdains is the one that offers the highest level of PQ available to us consumers.

I have seen nothing more disgusting, visually, in AV, than an LCD playing back standard def. At least a plasma can made standard def look close to as good as overcompressed HD lite. SD on a LCD looks like barf. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

I don't trust the PQ judgments of people who buy poorer PQ for the money.

A lot of them are so incredibly misinformed about plasma technology as well. To boot, I'm sure many of them have no idea what frame interpolation is, let alone if they even have it on, or at what setting.

I only use a front projector, but if I ever got a flat panel today, you can bet the farm it would be a plasma.

 

[rekced]

Man, I saw yet another stupid LCD in a beautiful home last night. Sigh. It just blows my mind how often people get the inferior display.

I would never consider an LCD for myself. Ever.

I, in fact, find the performance delta to be so great that I simply discriminate, for better or worse, and dismiss any PQ reviews of any titles if the reviewer is using an LCD. This has been true for a while, and I research just about every title before purchase. I am not saying that aren't some nice LCD panels out there, also well calibrated, but the discrimination I hold just makes life easier for me.

Then you take persons like Pyrrho who not only uses LCD, but also disdains Bluray.... well, you can be sure I don't give the slightest credit to any picture quality review he may ever offer, if the format he disdains is the one that offers the highest level of PQ available to us consumers.

I have seen nothing more disgusting, visually, in AV, than an LCD playing back standard def. At least a plasma can made standard def look close to as good as overcompressed HD lite. SD on a LCD looks like barf. Terrible. Terrible. Terrible.

I don't trust the PQ judgments of people who buy poorer PQ for the money.

A lot of them are so incredibly misinformed about plasma technology as well. To boot, I'm sure many of them have no idea what frame interpolation is, let alone if they even have it on, or at what setting.

As I was reading what you said it was so brutal I thought you being sarcastic. Yet, I don't disagree with a single word.... I can't imagine watching SD on an LCD all the time. No disrespect to our friend Pyrrho.

I only use a front projector

You're talking my language! If only I had the money!

 

[chipped]

baaaah interpolation, watch the movie/show how the director intended.

 

[D-Jingle]

always best

always best to have 120hz until 240hz emerges!

 

[juggy4805]

Yet, I don't disagree with a single word.... I can't imagine watching SD on an LCD all the time. No disrespect to our friend Pyrrho.

The horror!

I just got my Samsung LCD in at the end of last week and it is awesome. I am completely happy with it.

 

[Pyrrho]

The horror!

I just got my Samsung LCD in at the end of last week and it is awesome. I am completely happy with it.

According to some of the plasma fans, you must have poor taste and don't know a good picture when you see it. According to some, plasma is good and the design approved by God Almighty, and LCD is obviously the work of the devil.

Anyway, I have always said, and will continue to say, that everyone who is buying a TV should research the matter to see what the pros and cons are of each, and consider how one will use the TV, and decide for oneself what one wants. If you are happy with LCD, and someone else is happy with plasma, that is fine with me. Just so long as everyone actually researches the issue, at the time of purchase. That is important, as TVs keep getting better all of the time, so if the last time one looked at other TVs was a year ago, one's experience is simply out of date.

 

[bandphan]

Just understand that if you want "crt" type veiwing on a big display, plasma is the choice with the exception of only 2 lcd displays. I can't tell the countless times ivè had Commercial customers try to do lcd and it just bites. Ivè had a 37 lcd in the br untill 2 weeks ago and it was horrid watching sports (paid 1800 at my cost 3years ago). I guess this Tech is the only thing ivè been a fanboy about and its because im in the biz. When my addition ever gets finished it will be FP and plasma and by that time TI will have the new chip sets for their dlps and that should be the bomb for the next 2 years for FP.

 

[Pyrrho]

.... I can't imagine watching SD on an LCD all the time. No disrespect to our friend Pyrrho....

It is simply false that I watch only SD on an LCD. You are reading the posts of people who literally don't know what they are talking about. Too often, people imagine things that are not stated, when someone says something that they don't like. That is why I added the second thing to my "signature" below, though obviously it isn't being read by enough people who read my posts.

 

[jostenmeat]

According to some, plasma is good and the design approved by God Almighty, and LCD is obviously the work of the devil.

Well, if you knew who the Anunnaki actually were . .

 

[rekced]

It is simply false that I watch only SD on an LCD. You are reading the posts of people who literally don't know what they are talking about. Too often, people imagine things that are not stated, when someone says something that they don't like. That is why I added the second thing to my "signature" below, though obviously it isn't being read by enough people who read my posts.

LOL I thought he knew you. Props to that guy for rattling your cage for no reason. It's called having a sense of humor.

 

[Djizasse]

I've made my research and bought a LCD. I watch a LOT of SD and it's actually very good.
It was very bad with the original settings, but in less than five minutes I was able to get very good SD displaying. It's all in the settings.