$10,000 Two Channel Recommended System

[gene]

Here's one online review, alas in German, but Google translate does pretty decent job - it's not exactly Goethe material

https://translate.google.com/transl...dware/2012/onkyo_a9070_c7070.shtml&edit-text=

Found linky here:
Onkyo A-9070 review - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums

I asked Steve to place it in the soon to be revamped $5k 2CH System along with a pair of NHT towers and Aperion Verus Tower alternative. Should make for a great center piece.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

I asked Steve to place it in the soon to be revamped $5k 2CH System along with a pair of NHT towers and Aperion Verus Tower alternative. Should make for a great center piece.

Great choices indeed

 

[PENG]

I could see how someone might like this speaker if they value a cold sound, manufactured sound. The R700 sounds as if it were built by people who look at technical data all day rather than actually listen to music.

You maybe right about everything else you said, but lost credibility in this paragraph. The chance of successfully landing the largest passenger jet in the dark is much higher with alll the electronics designed by engineers, than someone going by his/her senses, let alone landing on the moon so no people should not trust your sense to determine which speakers sound good to them. They can do better by trusting their own senses, or "look at technical data all day............" Going by senses end up with subjective opinions, not that there is anything wrong with that as long as it is stated as an opinion.

 

[JohnnieB]

Andrews' review of the KEF mentioned "metallic" sounding mids and "boomy" bass. I haven't heard the KEFs' but for 200 more, the Revel F208 seems a better choice. Larger tower may not appeal to everyone. Or for 1000 less, Ascend Sierra RAAL has stellar mids and the RAAL is pretty hard to top, IMO. The cabinet is also solid not a veneer and is unobtrusive in stature. Granted, I may be somewhat bias on the Ascends.
Some people who have had issues with Emotiva gear, still recommend them.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As you found, very few speakers can compete with the RBH's at their price point.

When I first joined AH, a few members told me that AH staff loved RBH, but that RBH speakers didn't sound all that good. So when I first auditioned RBH, I was already biased AGAINST RBH. But when I actually listened to the speakers, I was floored. I thought, "What the hell were these guys talking about against RBH?" It was the best sound I've heard. And that was the T2.

This may be off topic, but I was wondering if you can answer one question about the RBH towers like T2 and 8T. They are modular, so separate cabinets. But when the jumpers are connected, they become one passive speaker. How is that possible?

Guys like DS-21 on AVS don't believe this functionality of the 8T or other RBH towers. They claim that Shane Rich and RBH are just full of gimmicks and this design is one example.

Revel Owners Thread - Page 237

 

[PENG]

When I first joined AH, a few members told me that AH staff loved RBH, but that RBH speakers didn't sound all that good. So when I first auditioned RBH, I was already biased AGAINST RBH. But when I actually listened to the speakers, I was floored. I thought, "What the hell were these guys talking about against RBH?" It was the best sound I've heard. And that was the T2.

This may be off topic, but I was wondering if you can answer one question about the RBH towers like T2 and 8T. They are modular, so separate cabinets. But when the jumpers are connected, they become one passive speaker. How is that possible?

Guys like DS-21 on AVS don't believe this functionality of the 8T or other RBH towers. They claim that Shane Rich and RBH are just full of gimmicks and this design is one example.

Revel Owners Thread - Page 237

Like I said, if you go by ears you get subjective opinion. That's pefectly fine unless you want to stick with accuracy. I believe there are people who prefer inaccurate speakers if they happen to listen to one that matches their liking. For example, may be s somewhat metallic sound is actual an accurate reflection of the metallic musical instruments, but if the person prefer an artifically warmer or non metallic sound then the person will not necessary prefer a relatively accurate speaker.

WhenI did my A/B/C comparison listening in a KEF/Revel dealer last year, I really like the F32 but still went home with the R900 that I perceived being more live like whereas the F32 was smooth but seemed less transparent to me. So yes I can understand it if someone would say KEF R700 sound metallic but I really am guessing what others may think or perceive. I prefer to stick to facts and figures, as long as they match with my senses.

Sound like you maybe ready to sell your 201 to me and then go buy some RBH.

 

[slipperybidness]

This may be off topic, but I was wondering if you can answer one question about the RBH towers like T2 and 8T. They are modular, so separate cabinets. But when the jumpers are connected, they become one passive speaker. How is that possible?

Does it matter if the jumpers are on the inside of the cabinet or the outside of the cabinet? Any passive speaker will have a similar setup, only inside the cab.

 

[crossedover]

Like I said, if you go by ears you get subjective opinion. That's pefectly fine unless you want to stick with accuracy. I believe there are people who prefer inaccurate speakers if they happen to listen to one that matches their liking. For example, may be s somewhat metallic sound is actual an accurate reflection of the metallic musical instruments, but if the person prefer an artifically warmer or non metallic sound then the person will not necessary prefer a relatively accurate speaker.

WhenI did my A/B/C comparison listening in a KEF/Revel dealer last year, I really like the F32 but still went home with the R900 that I perceived being more live like whereas the F32 was smooth but seemed less transparent to me. So yes I can understand it if someone would say KEF R700 sound metallic but I really am guessing what others may think or perceive. I prefer to stick to facts and figures, as long as they match with my senses.

Sound like you maybe ready to sell your 201 to me and then go buy some RBH.

It is amazing how some find highly accurate speakers harsh, evening with well recorded material. If ones musical taste is mostly rock, rap, house, etc I wouldn't see the need for the "top" dollar speakers. If one listens to classical, jazz, folk, bluegrass, unamplified performances, etc then well designed speakers are more critical. In the diy community this debate comes up with ribbons vs soft dome tweeters often.

 

[its phillip]

There is a ton of great setups you could do for $10k. I like the inclusion of two subs for a two channel system, that should be a more common. The systems listed are all very high on the WAF. If you didn't have to deal with WAF at all, just get a pair of JTR Noesis 215s; absolutely endless dynamic range and absolutely no need for a subwoofer. They do not need heavy duty amplification either.

I agree with this

 

[gene]

When I first joined AH, a few members told me that AH staff loved RBH, but that RBH speakers didn't sound all that good. So when I first auditioned RBH, I was already biased AGAINST RBH. But when I actually listened to the speakers, I was floored. I thought, "What the hell were these guys talking about against RBH?" It was the best sound I've heard. And that was the T2.

This may be off topic, but I was wondering if you can answer one question about the RBH towers like T2 and 8T. They are modular, so separate cabinets. But when the jumpers are connected, they become one passive speaker. How is that possible?

Guys like DS-21 on AVS don't believe this functionality of the 8T or other RBH towers. They claim that Shane Rich and RBH are just full of gimmicks and this design is one example.

Revel Owners Thread - Page 237

DS-21 is a......quite a character He's been banned or blocked from many forums including ours and has been known to misquote people like Dr. Floyd Toole for example who had to come in here and slap him down. His textbook approach to things is very 2 dimensional and it's obvious he lacks any real world experience on subject matters at hand.

The 8Ts can be single, bi or triamped. I use them as single amped. Both Shane and I agree this is the best way to use them if you're using a hulking amp. They don't offer a version without crossovers to do active amplification. It's not needed. The passive Xover system he employed is top notch and the speaker has near perfect integration as is.

Every person I've had come visit me has been completely floored by the 8Ts. It's a listening experience that has no equal is what people often tell me.

 

[3db]

Any room in the budget for a better turntable? Turntables are one device in audio reproduction where higher prices always ends up in higher perfromance. I would move up to an ProJect Xperience or a ClearAudio Concept .... and use Blue Jean cables all around. No way, a dam IPOD is going to come into my 2 channel rigging. Sorry Accudeftech,,,,, nothing personal

 

[gene]

Any room in the budget for a better turntable? Turntables are one device in audio reproduction where higher prices always ends up in higher perfromance. I would move up to an ProJect Xperience or a ClearAudio Concept .... and use Blue Jean cables all around. No way, a dam IPOD is going to come into my 2 channel rigging. Sorry Accudeftech,,,,, nothing personal

LOL very true. Of course this is a guideline. I personally use the Marantz TT-15S1which is a Clear Audio Table. Very good for $1500.

We are upgrading the $10k system to include the RBH SX-661/R as an alternative to the KEfs while still using the SVS Subs. This is a killer combo!

It would save some money to upgrade the turntable as well.

 

[TheHills44060]

However I'm quite partial to the Scan Speak 9500 tweeter used in the RBH's and the dual mids of the MTM. Such a huge open soundstage with unlimited dynamics.

Totally agree. Can't think of an instance where the 9500's didn't win me over. Great soft domes and they never fatigue me at all.

I'd much prefer the Emotiva separates over the Onkyo you recommended.

Disagree on this one. I'd take the integrated over the Emotiva stuff in a heartbeat (caveat is I have not heard that particular Onkyo firsthand). Not a fan of Emotiva amps at all plus a nice integrated for this budget makes sense rather than cheaping out and going the Emotiva route.

In addition several Emotiva products were mentioned on these forums one time too many in the less than positive light and I would personally shy away from. YMMV

Too true.

 

[Plexmulti9]

You maybe right about everything else you said, but lost credibility in this paragraph. The chance of successfully landing the largest passenger jet in the dark is much higher with alll the electronics designed by engineers, than someone going by his/her senses, let alone landing on the moon so no people should not trust your sense to determine which speakers sound good to them. They can do better by trusting their own senses, or "look at technical data all day............" Going by senses end up with subjective opinions, not that there is anything wrong with that as long as it is stated as an opinion.

A few notes on the above....

- My credibility is based on 15 years doing this for a living and working with a tremendous amount of equipment not just over periods of years, but every day and in just about every type of environment, budget, source material, etc. I stand by my description of what I felt about the KEF R700 as well as my relaying of what other people's opinions have been of it since we set that rig up. 12 people have now come in to listen to these speakers and not one has listed the R700 as anything but last - and by a large gap in performance. More than half of our listeners didn't even want to go back to them after hearing any of the others. I don't have anything against KEF. Heck, I'm a dealer of the line! But, in the market space they are priced in, I don't feel like the R700 is perhaps the best speaker out there.

I also disagree with the robotic idea that people should trust in measurements rather than their own ears. I feel that people should absolutely trust their senses as to what sounds good to them. Music is to be enjoyed by the senses. That's how it works! To go by measurements to determine what sounds good begs the question: Why listen at all? This is not to disparage measurements. Not in the least! But, IMO, that is well behind actual perceived performance from the speaker itself in determining sound quality.

Lastly, I would just like to point out that the other speakers were designed by engineers as well.

 

[Steve81]

Hi Plex,

You may have missed the most important part of the R700 section:

We’ll open with a disclaimer: loudspeakers are subjective, and there is no shortage of fine choices in this price range.

I can respect that the R700s won't be everyone's cup of tea. Personally I like what KEF does, and its certainly fair to say they've garnered a strong reputation for themselves. The LS50s are on Stereophile's Class A (restricted LF) list for 2013, in fact being the least costly loudspeaker in that class. The Q900 made the full range Class B list, which includes 5 figure contenders. Of course, at the end of the day if you prefer something else, by all means go for it. I'd also note that as a general rule, I recommend that folks listen to as many speakers as they can to get a feel for their preferences.

 

[Plexmulti9]

Hi Plex,

You may have missed the most important part of the R700 section:


I can respect that the R700s won't be everyone's cup of tea. Personally I like what KEF does, and its certainly fair to say they've garnered a strong reputation for themselves. The LS50s are on Stereophile's Class A (restricted LF) list for 2013, in fact being the least costly loudspeaker in that class. The Q900 made the full range Class B list, which includes 5 figure contenders. Of course, at the end of the day if you prefer something else, by all means go for it. I'd also note that as a general rule, I recommend that folks listen to as many speakers as they can to get a feel for their preferences.

Steve,

I appreciate the response and want to give you one of my own in that I am absolutely NOT picking on you or your article. Any time people make a "best at price point $$$" article or conversation there is going to be a wide range of varying opinions and experiences. I thought mine would be interesting in contrast to yours because we literally just did a bit of a mixed bag shoot out of several different models and types of speakers, one of which was the R700. It was so recent that I hadn't even had time to clean it up, which is why I could snap a quick picture!

KEF does make some really nice product that we cherry pick as needed. The LS50 you mentioned is very strong, as is the Q series, and I really enjoy their over ear headphones. Those three products I would consider legitimate values for their price points for sure as well as several others, such as their powered PC speaker of a similar ilk to the LS50.

Anyone reading your article should take my or anyone else's comments as a contrast of opinion and experience, which goes to the point of auditioning and understanding preferences as well as characteristics we value in a loudspeaker.

 

[PENG]

A few notes on the above....

- My credibility is based on 15 years doing this for a living and working with a tremendous amount of equipment not just over periods of years, but every day and in just about every type of environment, budget, source material, etc.

I thought so until I read the paragraph I quoted. As I said, you could well be right about everything else, I mean prior. It is that one little part where you lost credibility, not all but some anyway; and that's just my opinion that you don't have to care about.

I stand by my description of what I felt about the KEF R700 as well as my relaying of what other people's opinions have been of it since we set that rig up.

I don't blame you. If you don't like what you heard, nothing else matter. I respect the other people's opinion too. It is afterall their "opinions" as you clearly stated this time.

12 people have now come in to listen to these speakers and not one has listed the R700 as anything but last - and by a large gap in performance. More than half of our listeners didn't even want to go back to them after hearing any of the others. I don't have anything against KEF. Heck, I'm a dealer of the line! But, in the market space they are priced in, I don't feel like the R700 is perhaps the best speaker out there.

Again, that's their opinions, but if (only if) those 12 people represent all who have listened to those speakers so far and all came to such extreme conclusions, i.e. large gap..., didn't even want to ... etc., then I would find it really odd. I have not heard the R700 but they do have go reviews, nice looking graphs too. Also, the R900 sounds great to me, so by extension I would think the R700 should sound pretty good too. Now it is entirely possible that those other speakers you set up are much superior than the R700.

I also disagree with the robotic idea that people should trust in measurements rather than their own ears. I feel that people should absolutely trust their senses as to what sounds good to them. Music is to be enjoyed by the senses. That's how it works! To go by measurements to determine what sounds good begs the question: Why listen at all? This is not to disparage measurements. Not in the least! But, IMO, that is well behind actual perceived performance from the speaker itself in determining sound quality.

I fully agree with you on this, but it does not mean speakers that do not sound good to us automatically sound bad to others. That is my whole point about going by sense would end up with subjective opinions. That is fine as long as we do not confuse it as facts and tell others that speakers that don't sound as good to us are bad. As an extreme example just to make my point clear, one may not even like the most accurate speakers in the world but that does not mean those speakers won't be loved by others. Some conductors of Philharmonic orchestras may like them. I believe specs and test data are a good place to start, but should always end with listening with our ears.

Lastly, I would just like to point out that the other speakers were designed by engineers as well.

I did not say or imply they were not. It is also sort of irrelevant to our discussion here. Engineers routinely have to design things to meet specific goals, so it depends a lot on the goals set by or for them. It could be a variety of things, most likely include a budget, frequency response, impedance (magnitude and phase) characteristics and many other things. I simply made the point about the importance of facts and figures in order to be objective; and could have substituted the word engineer with "designer", or whatever.

 

[gene]

A few notes on the above....

- My credibility is based on 15 years doing this for a living and working with a tremendous amount of equipment not just over periods of years, but every day and in just about every type of environment, budget, source material, etc. I stand by my description of what I felt about the KEF R700 as well as my relaying of what other people's opinions have been of it since we set that rig up. 12 people have now come in to listen to these speakers and not one has listed the R700 as anything but last - and by a large gap in performance. More than half of our listeners didn't even want to go back to them after hearing any of the others. I don't have anything against KEF. Heck, I'm a dealer of the line! But, in the market space they are priced in, I don't feel like the R700 is perhaps the best speaker out there.

I also disagree with the robotic idea that people should trust in measurements rather than their own ears. I feel that people should absolutely trust their senses as to what sounds good to them. Music is to be enjoyed by the senses. That's how it works! To go by measurements to determine what sounds good begs the question: Why listen at all? This is not to disparage measurements. Not in the least! But, IMO, that is well behind actual perceived performance from the speaker itself in determining sound quality.

Lastly, I would just like to point out that the other speakers were designed by engineers as well.

and also this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiwYWkad-hU

Sounds like you should drop the Kef line if you think it's that bad. Seriously why sell something you don't feel passionate about.

IN looking at your test setup there was such a variance in speaker positioning. The kefs were spaced very far apart compared to some of the other speakers. This will have a big affect on results.

Agreed you can't just go by measurements. It's very easy to make any speaker look good with a few very incomplete measurements especially when a lot of smoothing is used. However measurements are useful in determining if there are any serious design flaws. I am quite vocal about how a few companies like to hold on to the "Science' as the holly grail of loudspeaker design, yet many of these companies often use the cheapest parts and dumbed down testing procedure to come to their conclusions.

see:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggfYe2QxJ4g

 

[fuzz092888]

IN looking at your test setup there was such a variance in speaker positioning. The kefs were spaced very far apart compared to some of the other speakers. This will have a big affect on results.

He did say that the speakers were only placed like that for photographic reasons. I do agree, that if one's own opinion and the opinions of many he has had in are negative, it wouldn't make much sense to continue to carry them.

The quote I'm referring to:

PS: Before anyone gets all worked up: I'm not biased as we're dealers of all of these brands. And, NO, I did not leave them in those positions as we were demoing. We moved them around, on stands, etc. accordingly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

DS-21 is an idiot. He's been banned or blocked from many forums including ours and has been known to misquote people like Dr. Floyd Toole for example who had to come in here and slap him down. His textbook approach to things is very 2 dimensional and it's obvious he lacks any real world experience on subject matters at hand.

The 8Ts can be single, bi or triamped. I use them as single amped. Both Shane and I agree this is the best way to use them if you're using a hulking amp. They don't offer a version without crossovers to do active amplification. It's not needed. The passive Xover system he employed is top notch and the speaker has near perfect integration as is.

Every person I've had come visit me has been completely floored by the 8Ts. It's a listening experience that has no equal is what people often tell me.

RBH just needs to lower the price of the 8T to $20K so some of us can also enjoy them.