1 vs 2 subs

[William Lemmerhirt]

What are some good cylinder subs to consider?

Well aside from DIY, svs is the only commercial company that makes any. The pc2000 is a good choice. The pc4000 imo, is a bit expensive for what you get. If they made one with the pb3000 performance in the pc form factor it would be the best ROI as the 3k series is they’re best value.

 

[Trell]

What are some good cylinder subs to consider?

They are easier to place at the expense of being taller. Nothing is free here.

 

[sakete]

As you have used your new excellent subwoofer I think you should use this opportunity to measure using your UMIK-1. What you want to be looking for is deep and wide dips in various positions.

As for very limited placements in a living room: That’s the reality for most people. Me included, and I’ve two subs with a modest improvement on the deep dip at 31 Hz. Well, it’s not as wide anymore.

I will see if I can make time to do this tomorrow. So I’m assuming I should disable all PEQ set by my AVR before doing this?

And I’ve used REW before for creating custom convolution filters for Volumio for my custom made music streamer box (but not using that currently as I’ll need to figure out a solution to use that with the sub first).

Do I just take a frequency sweep measurement? Any good resources you recommend for this? And should I do the sub only, or along with my 2 fronts?

 

[Trell]

I will see if I can make time to do this tomorrow. So I’m assuming I should disable all PEQ set by my AVR before doing this?

And I’ve used REW before for creating custom convolution filters for Volumio for my custom made music streamer box (but not using that currently as I’ll need to figure out a solution to use that with the sub first).

Do I just take a frequency sweep measurement? Any good resources you recommend for this? And should I do the sub only, or along with my 2 fronts?

Welcome to falling down the rabbit hole. I can assure you that the hole is deep, and then some.

As for just measuring the subwoofer all DSP should be disabled and only the subwoofer should have a signal.

For interaction of speakers and subwoofer along with DSP, that’s the next step.

Moving your subwoofer around while learning to use REW will keep you busy for while.

 

[sakete]

Well aside from DIY, svs is the only commercial company that makes any. The pc2000 is a good choice. The pc4000 imo, is a bit expensive for what you get. If they made one with the pb3000 performance in the pc form factor it would be the best ROI as the 3k series is they’re best value.

Those look interesting, though they’re much more expensive than even the Hsu, so that would put getting 2 out of budget. Could maybe swing one.

 

[Trell]

Those look interesting, though they’re much more expensive than even the Hsu, so that would put getting 2 out of budget. Could maybe swing one.

He suggested them as a response to your limited floorspace. Cylindrical subwoofers are excellent performers but to me they are like a thumb to my eye as well as my wife.

 

[sakete]

He suggested them as a response to your limited floorspace. Cylindrical subwoofers are excellent performers but to me they are like a thumb to my eye as well as my wife.

It’s looking like overall getting something like the RSL 10S MKII, and then 2 of those, will be workable size wise. Or any other good 10” subs.

But I should take some REW measurements first.

 

[sakete]

I’ve decided to purchase the Denon X4800, so will either way see how that improves things. Picking it up today, on sale at Best Buy.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wouldn't have anywhere to put a second VTF2-MK5, it's pretty huge, in particular, it's very deep.

I guess I don't really want to lose the extension a 12" sub can provide vs. a 10" sub, maybe I should look around for 12" subs with the smallest footprint.

My first thought then was also, as has been suggested, the SVS cylindrical subs for a smaller footprint. Believe they're lighter and easier to move around, too. The aesthetic isn't for everyone, tho.

Even something as simple as a sub crawl to start might be an idea? But since you have a mic that's a better way to go overall.

Congrats on the 4800, the choices it offers for Audyssey and Dirac are both interesting. FWIW I'd start with Audyssey and the MultEQ Editor app for $20 before buying a Dirac license....and to me the four sub capability is particularly interesting (I have two older Denons that can do two subs for level/delay, tho), but I also have four subs in my main setup....

 

[sakete]

My first thought then was also, as has been suggested, the SVS cylindrical subs for a smaller footprint. Believe they're lighter and easier to move around, too. The aesthetic isn't for everyone, tho.

Even something as simple as a sub crawl to start might be an idea? But since you have a mic that's a better way to go overall.

Congrats on the 4800, the choices it offers for Audyssey and Dirac are both interesting. FWIW I'd start with Audyssey and the MultEQ Editor app for $20 before buying a Dirac license....and to me the four sub capability is particularly interesting (I have two older Denons that can do two subs for level/delay, tho), but I also have four subs in my main setup....

So I setup the X4800 with Audyssey, using the $20 app. Limited corrections to 500hz and lower, leaving everything above that uncorrected. Edited the curve with a +3db rise in the low-end.

Currently have the Fronts set to Full Range, and Sub to LFE+Main. So far I like how it sounds, better imaging than seemingly my Yamaha, but I still feel like there is more low-end coming from the left (where my Sub is) than the right, even with the front speakers set to Full Range.

The cylindrical SVS subs do seem interesting, but they're simply out of budget if I were to get two. If only one, I might as well just stick to the Hsu VTF2-MK5 as it won't be worth the hassle and expense to send those back.

I'm still curious if 2x RSL 10S MKII would solve the issue I have, and give me a more even bass response in the room. Tempted to just order two and try them out, but there are restocking fees associated with that. And 2 of those would definitely be within budget.

 

[lovinthehd]

So I setup the X4800 with Audyssey, using the $20 app. Limited corrections to 500hz and lower, leaving everything above that uncorrected. Edited the curve with a +3db rise in the low-end.

Currently have the Fronts set to Full Range, and Sub to LFE+Main. So far I like how it sounds, better imaging than seemingly my Yamaha, but I still feel like there is more low-end coming from the left (where my Sub is) than the right, even with the front speakers set to Full Range.

The cylindrical SVS subs do seem interesting, but they're simply out of budget if I were to get two. If only one, I might as well just stick to the Hsu VTF2-MK5 as it won't be worth the hassle and expense to send those back.

I'm still curious if 2x RSL 10S MKII would solve the issue I have, and give me a more even bass response in the room. Tempted to just order two and try them out, but there are restocking fees associated with that. And 2 of those would definitely be within budget.

Imaging is probably the wrong term. What happens if you set to LFE and use various crossover settings? Hopefully you can play somewhat with the positioning of the Hsu sub, even sometimes a relatively short distance from current position can make a difference. Old saying subs go where they need to go, not where you want them to go....

 

[sakete]

Imaging is probably the wrong term. What happens if you set to LFE and use various crossover settings? Hopefully you can play somewhat with the positioning of the Hsu sub, even sometimes a relatively short distance from current position can make a difference. Old saying subs go where they need to go, not where you want them to go....

I did actually mess with the crossover settings. It's still on LFE+Main, but I set it to a 80hz crossover on the Fronts and it sounded a lot clearer than with the Fronts set to Full. Like significantly better IMO. Llike bass frequency waves from the sub and speakers were interfering with each other at first, until crossover set to 80hz.

I think I'll probably lower the +3db low-end house-curve I applied, bass gets a bit excessive at times.

 

[Trell]

I think I'll probably lower the +3db low-end house-curve I applied, bass gets a bit excessive at times.

If you’re using Audyssey Dynamic EQ there is a setting called Reference Level Offset. I use level 0 for Blu-ray but 10 for watching TV as otherwise there will be too much bass for me.

The Denon remote has Quick Select buttons you can use to store many settings.

 

[sakete]

So these are the measurements taken by Audyssey for the Sub. There’s a big dip around 100hz.

I’m comparing the Hsu measurements against the RSL 10S MKII, and with both ports open the Hsu and the RSL (in LFE mode) seem to start rolling off low-end around the same point ~25hz, but the RSL rolls off a bit faster and the Hsu gets louder up to that point.

With one port closed the Hsu doesn’t start to roll of until about 18hz.

To what extent will this be a noticeable difference between these subs?

Edit: I've decided to go ahead and order 2x RSL 10S MKII. Will then take measurements comparing the HSU against 2x RSL in this room to see which gives a better overall response.

 

[sakete]

@Trell So somehow, now the low-end feels and sounds like it's coming more from the middle of the soundstage.

Yesterday I did a full Audyssey calibration (see result in post above) with the Hsu having both ports open. Also applied a +3db to the low-end, my own house curve. In the end it was too much bass, so I removed it and re-uploaded the calibration to the AVR. And then today I decided to plug one of the ports on the Hsu, as that will increase low-end extension at the cost of SPL, but there was plenty of bass already anyway so I was curious how that would sound.

Currently I feel like the low-end is now more coming from the center of the soundstage instead of the left where the subwoofer is currently placed. Surprising that plugging a port can do that. Maybe the lower SPL output has less interaction with the walls which was localizing it too much. Didn't re-calibrate with the port plugged (and maybe I should, but liking the sound better so far).

Also have the two RSLs 10" subs on the way now, so I'll be comparing both in terms of subjective audio quality as well as objective measurements what sounds better.

 

[TLS Guy]

@Trell So somehow, now the low-end feels and sounds like it's coming more from the middle of the soundstage.

Yesterday I did a full Audyssey calibration (see result in post above) with the Hsu having both ports open. Also applied a +3db to the low-end, my own house curve. In the end it was too much bass, so I removed it and re-uploaded the calibration to the AVR. And then today I decided to plug one of the ports on the Hsu, as that will increase low-end extension at the cost of SPL, but there was plenty of bass already anyway so I was curious how that would sound.

Currently I feel like the low-end is now more coming from the center of the soundstage instead of the left where the subwoofer is currently placed. Surprising that plugging a port can do that. Maybe the lower SPL output has less interaction with the walls which was localizing it too much. Didn't re-calibrate with the port plugged (and maybe I should, but liking the sound better so far).

Also have the two RSLs 10" subs on the way now, so I'll be comparing both in terms of subjective audio quality as well as objective measurements what sounds better.

With the design of your speakers, I would expect LFE + Main and 80 Hz to be the optimal solution in your situation. That goes a long way to mitigating the stacked crossover situation as it significantly reduces the phase conflicts.

 

[Trell]

@Trell So somehow, now the low-end feels and sounds like it's coming more from the middle of the soundstage.

Yesterday I did a full Audyssey calibration (see result in post above) with the Hsu having both ports open. Also applied a +3db to the low-end, my own house curve. In the end it was too much bass, so I removed it and re-uploaded the calibration to the AVR. And then today I decided to plug one of the ports on the Hsu, as that will increase low-end extension at the cost of SPL, but there was plenty of bass already anyway so I was curious how that would sound.

Currently I feel like the low-end is now more coming from the center of the soundstage instead of the left where the subwoofer is currently placed. Surprising that plugging a port can do that. Maybe the lower SPL output has less interaction with the walls which was localizing it too much. Didn't re-calibrate with the port plugged (and maybe I should, but liking the sound better so far).

Also have the two RSLs 10" subs on the way now, so I'll be comparing both in terms of subjective audio quality as well as objective measurements what sounds better.

It’s great that you’re more satisfied with the sound after more experimenting.

It’s been a few years since I last did a calibration using Audyssey XT32 in my living room as there’s been no need. My Denon AVR (2015 model) did not get the app update so just the default behavior is available me.

In any case, in my room, the calibration is quite sensitive (bass wise) to the mic placement pattern. I also switched to a mic stand as well soon after I bought the AVR as the paper contraption stand Denon shipped gave some weird results.

For me a tight mic pattern centered around MLP worked the best, that is, within 30 cm. A far cry from what suggested at that time.

Three years ago when I bought my acoustic panels I also bought an inexpensive laser range finder, in addition to painters tape and photos I used before. This made for repeatable audio measurements using a microphone sound with the free REW software.

 

[sakete]

It’s great that you’re more satisfied with the sound after more experimenting.

It’s been a few years since I last did a calibration using Audyssey XT32 in my living room as there’s been no need. My Denon AVR (2015 model) did not get the app update so just the default behavior is available me.

In any case, in my room, the calibration is quite sensitive (bass wise) to the mic placement pattern. I also switched to a mic stand as well soon after I bought the AVR as the paper contraption stand Denon shipped gave some weird results.

For me a tight mic pattern centered around MLP worked the best, that is, within 30 cm. A far cry from what suggested at that time.

Three years ago when I bought my acoustic panels I also bought an inexpensive laser range finder, in addition to painters tape and photos I used before. This made for repeatable audio measurements using a microphone sound with the free REW software.

Alright, I took this measurement of the VTF2-MK5 sub in its current position. Disabled Audyssey settings, and unplugged all other speakers. Sub Crossover set to 250hz so it would send the full signal. I feel like the measurement looks a bit off with the steep drop at 100hz and continues going down - I would expect it to keep going to about 200hz before seeing a more significant drop-off,.

On the Denon I had the following settings:
LFE + Main
Audyssey Off
Subwoofer level at 0dB
Front + Center speakers physically disconnected

In REW, I limited the measurement to 500hz.

I received the 2 RSL subs today. Will set those up tomorrow and measure.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Wonder if you still have a XO engaged. Even though lfe+mains is selected, you can still select a xo. Iirc it defaults to 80hz.

 

[sakete]

Wonder if you still have a XO engaged. Even though lfe+mains is selected, you can still select a xo. Iirc it defaults to 80hz.

Yes, I finally figured it out. I needed to change the speaker crossover setting from full range (I thought that would just send everything to the sub) to the highest crossover setting at 250hz. This is the result:

There's a big dip around 100hz, which I also noticed in the Audyssey measurement, and unable to flatten that.

I will in a bit setup both of the 10" RSL subs and see how that goes.