1 vs 2 subs

[sakete]

I just received the HSU VTF-2 MK5 I had ordered. My first real sub (last sub I had was years ago, a little 2.1 Logitech setup, but that wasn't very good).

I'm integrating it with a Yamaha A2070 AVR (debating upgrading to the Denon X4800H), paired with Revel F206 3-way floorstanders, and Revel C205 two-way center speaker. F206 is driven by an external Purifi Class-D amp.

Speakers are about 10ft apart, and about 10ft from listening position (equilateral triangle), with the HSU next to the left front speaker, in the corner (least intrusive placement in my living room). Ran the YPAO calibration on the AVR and it set levels, trim, and PEQ for the speakers and sub to even out room response. Both front and center speakers are crossed over at 80hz. Went back and forth with 60hz and 80hz. I maybe liked 60hz a bit better, but for now am keeping it at 80hz as that seems to be the recommendation for these speakers.

When playing music, the added bass sounds amazing. However, eventhough it's commonly stated that bass isn't very directional, I can still sense most of the bass coming from the left (where the sub is) and I'm wondering if 2 subs would help even out the bass response. I feel this is the case even with the AVR's "Extra Bass" feature enabled, which appears to be the same as the more common LFE+Main designation. This "Extra Bass" feature does seem to provide music with more of a mid-bass hump as well.

If 2 subs is a likely yes, I was considering swapping the HSU for 2 RSL 10E subs. Will the difference in specified bass extension make a noticeable difference? Any other differences to be aware of?

And could going for a Denon AVR with Dirac Bass Control do a significantly better job of integrating 2 subs than my Yamaha AVR would?

 

[lovinthehd]

Moving out of the corner may help with the localization, or just another location. A second sub could be a good way to go as well (or more) to reduce localization. Why not a second Hsu?

As to which subs, you might review shadyj's review of the Hsu https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-vtf-2-mk5 and while he hasn't tested the 10E, you might check on the 10S review https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rsl-10s-mkii and his comments in this article on the 10E https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rsl-10e

You'd lose some extension with the 10E vs the Hsu, whether that's important or very noticeable to you, hard to know.

I think Audyssey would do a better job than YPAO on integrating a sub, and more adjustable using the MultEQ Editor app. I haven't used Dirac.

 

[shadyJ]

Going to two subs might address your localization issues, if you calibrate it correctly. Per the VTF-2 mk5 vs the Speedwoofer 10E, you would lose a fair amount of low-frequency extension switching to the Speedwoofers. Probably not noticeable on music, but possibly noticeable in movies, expecially in movies that have a lot of deep bass.

Dirac absolutely would do a better job of integrating a dual sub ssystem, especially if you upgraded to Dirac's bass control which is phenomonal.

 

[sakete]

Moving out of the corner may help with the localization, or just another location. A second sub could be a good way to go as well (or more) to reduce localization. Why not a second Hsu?

As to which subs, you might review shadyj's review of the Hsu https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-vtf-2-mk5 and while he hasn't tested the 10E, you might check on the 10S review https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rsl-10s-mkii and his comments in this article on the 10E https://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/rsl-10e

You'd lose some extension with the 10E vs the Hsu, whether that's important or very noticeable to you, hard to know.

I think Audyssey would do a better job than YPAO on integrating a sub, and more adjustable using the MultEQ Editor app. I haven't used Dirac.

I wouldn't have anywhere to put a second VTF2-MK5, it's pretty huge, in particular, it's very deep.

I guess I don't really want to lose the extension a 12" sub can provide vs. a 10" sub, maybe I should look around for 12" subs with the smallest footprint.

 

[sakete]

Going to two subs might address your localization issues, if you calibrate it correctly. Per the VTF-2 mk5 vs the Speedwoofer 10E, you would lose a fair amount of low-frequency extension switching to the Speedwoofers. Probably not noticeable on music, but possibly noticeable in movies, expecially in movies that have a lot of deep bass.

Dirac absolutely would do a better job of integrating a dual sub ssystem, especially if you upgraded to Dirac's bass control which is phenomonal.

Do you know of any good 10" subs that would not sacrifice too much low-end extension vs. the VTF-2 MK5? Having 2 12" subs will be a challenge in my living space (they're generally very deep so it'll just look very ugly in my living room), but it looks like I might be able to make 2 10" subs work. Like would the RSL 10S be the answer?

Or otherwise, what might be the most compact 12" sub out there that's good for both HT and music? The Hsu isn't particularly wide, but it's very deep so it works fine in the corner I have it in, but adding another one would take up a lot of space everywhere else.

 

[Trell]

Do you know of any good 10" subs that would not sacrifice too much low-end extension vs. the VTF-2 MK5? Having 2 12" subs will be a challenge in my living space (they're generally very deep so it'll just look very ugly in my living room), but it looks like I might be able to make 2 10" subs work. Like would the RSL 10S be the answer?

Or otherwise, what might be the most compact 12" sub out there that's good for both HT and music? The Hsu isn't particularly wide, but it's very deep so it works fine in the corner I have it in, but adding another one would take up a lot of space everywhere else.

It’s worth noting that shadyJ wrote that a second subwoofer might help. If you’re constrained in the placement of speakers, subwoofers and main listening position, you might not have much of an improvement at all be it localization or improving nulls.

A measurement microphone will be very useful in trying out placements, like the inexpensive UMIK-1.

Edit: I saw in another thread that you have an UMIK-1 already.

 

[sakete]

It’s worth noting that shadyJ wrote that a second subwoofer might help. If you’re constrained in the placement of speakers, subwoofers and main listening position, you might not have much of an improvement at all be it localization or improving nulls.

A measurement microphone will be very useful in trying out placements, like the inexpensive UMIK-1.

Edit: I saw in another thread that you have an UMIK-1 already.

With two 10” subs I could have each sub next to my floorstanders (on the inside of them), next to my tv stand. Given the smaller size I’d have a bit more room to play with. But the 12” subs are significantly larger (particularly depth) so makes it a lot less flexible. But e.g the RSL 10S is 15x15x15 roughly, so much more flexible with placement

 

[Trell]

With two 10” subs I could have each sub next to my floorstanders (on the inside of them), next to my tv stand. Given the smaller size I’d have a bit more room to play with. But the 12” subs are significantly larger (particularly depth) so makes it a lot less flexible. But e.g the RSL 10S is 15x15x15 roughly, so much more flexible with placement

The best placement of subwoofer(s) is often not adjacent to the main speakers, though that might work well enough.

As you have UMIK-1 already, as well as a subwoofer, you could try measuring the subwoofer in various positions from your main listening position. There is a free program REW - Room EQ Wizard that has direct support for your measurement microphone.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

As mentioned, if you don’t have any freedom of placement, multiple subs is just guess work. Even using the umik will only be so useful if you can’t implement positional eq first. Hoffmann’s law is going to be at work here too, in that you may be looking at the smallest 12” you can get, BUT a small 12 might not be any better than a large 10”. It’s all about trade offs, and driver size is only one consideration of a subwoofers design and performance.(eg: an sb2000 won’t necessarily be better overall than a 10” ported RSL and the “potential” gain of the shallower roll of doesn’t mean that much unless you have three or four, since the output in the deepest octave with a sealed sub is very low to begin with).
You might be a good candidate for a couple cylinder subwoofers. You get all the performance of a large ported sub, with a small footprint.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The best placement of subwoofer(s) is often not adjacent to the main speakers, though that might work well enough.

As you have UMIK-1 already, as well as a subwoofer, you could try measuring the subwoofer in various positions from your main listening position. There is a free program REW - Room EQ Wizard that has direct support for your measurement microphone.

Just to add a point to this. A minidsp would be needed to implement eq filters in the event that there isn’t enough placement options to get a good response. Hopefully he had enough places to try a few combinations.

 

[Trell]

Just to add a point to this. A minidsp would be needed to implement eq filters in the event that there isn’t enough placement options to get a good response. Hopefully he had enough places to try a few combinations.

The OP has a number of threads with info scattered around.

He is considering to buy a Denon 4800 or similar receiver that at least can run Dirac.

He has an UMIK-1 already.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

The OP has a number of threads with info scattered around.

He is considering to buy a Denon 4800 or similar receiver that at least can run Dirac.

He has an UMIK-1 already.

Yeah I see that now I’ve browsed a bit. IMO the denon is a better choice, and even without using Dirac, audyssey is much better than ypao in dealing with subwoofers.

 

[sakete]

To consolidate some information in here, I'm considering purchasing a DLBC capable AVR, such as the Denon X4800H (or the Onkyo RZ70, but leaning towards Denon overall as Onkyo has questionable long-term reliability). Coming from a Yamaha A2070.

And I'm then considering swapping out my Hsu 12" sub for 2 10" subs (e.g. RSL 10S MKII) for which I should have more physical space to place them, but still limited in the sense that I don't just want to place them anywhere in the living room for the sake of achieving the best possible audio. Aesthetics matter also as it's just in my main living room.

 

[Trell]

Yeah I see that now I’ve browsed a bit. IMO the denon is a better choice, and even without using Dirac, audyssey is much better than ypao in dealing with subwoofers.

While having a number of threads to separate questions is great there is a downside of information not shared among the threads. A master thread easily becomes unfocused with issues not addressed. So here we are.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

To consolidate some information in here, I'm considering purchasing a DLBC capable AVR, such as the Denon X4800H (or the Onkyo RZ70, but leaning towards Denon overall as Onkyo has questionable long-term reliability). Coming from a Yamaha A2070.

And I'm then considering swapping out my Hsu 12" sub for 2 10" subs (e.g. RSL 10S MKII) for which I should have more physical space to place them, but still limited in the sense that I don't just want to place them anywhere in the living room for the sake of achieving the best possible audio. Aesthetics matter also as it's just in my main living room.

I still think it’s worth considering cylinders subs since they’re only 16” dia.

 

[Trell]

And I'm then considering swapping out my Hsu 12" sub for 2 10" subs (e.g. RSL 10S MKII) for which I should have more physical space to place them, but still limited in the sense that I don't just want to place them anywhere in the living room for the sake of achieving the best possible audio. Aesthetics matter also as it's just in my main living room.

As you have used your new excellent subwoofer I think you should use this opportunity to measure using your UMIK-1. What you want to be looking for is deep and wide dips in various positions.

As for very limited placements in a living room: That’s the reality for most people. Me included, and I’ve two subs with a modest improvement on the deep dip at 31 Hz. Well, it’s not as wide anymore.

 

[Danzilla31]

I still think it’s worth considering cylinders subs since they’re only 16” dia.

Or subs with a taller footprint

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Or subs with a taller footprint

Yep. Like the new HSU. Iirc it’s taller and narrower. I don’t know the max dimensions available in this room, but your point is taken.

 

[sakete]

I still think it’s worth considering cylinders subs since they’re only 16” dia.

What are some good cylinder subs to consider?

 

[sakete]

Yep. Like the new HSU. Iirc it’s taller and narrower. I don’t know the max dimensions available in this room, but your point is taken.

The Hsu is about 24-25” deep/long and about 14” wide, and that’s the main issue with the size, the depth, it would stick out too far in the room. The width is perfect. Don’t mind height as much.