Marantz AV 10 installed: - Early Review and Impressions.

[lovinthehd]

I wish Marantz would add a tilt control to the AV10 and it's siblings. Peter Walker invented one of the most useful controls that is never used. It is an easy control to add in a processor's FW.

What does it "tilt"?

 

[lovinthehd]

Every subjective impression should be treated with some scepticism. Every objective impresion should be treated as incomplete information.

Definitely on the former....what is an objective impression, tho? That sounds like a subjective description.....

 

[TLS Guy]

Did you tell that to the dealer?

The dealer was already having second thoughts about these speakers and asked for my honest opinion, and I gave it, but a bit more diplomatically.

 

[TLS Guy]

What does it "tilt"?

This refers to the tone controls on the 34 and 44 Quad preamps. The Quad 34 (tube) and the 33 (transistor) had standard Baxandall bass and treble controls. The 34 and 44 had bass boost and cut marked in db on the control. The tilt was a treble control and it boosted and cut above the turnover frequency in db marked either side of the control.

However to my mind the turnover filter with varying slope was by far the most useful frequency control on Quad equipment in the LP era. Many LPs had an edge to them, and even distortion on bad over modulated cutting. So there was a control that selected the turnover frequency. You had a choice of 10KHz, 7KHz or 5KHz. There was an adjacent control that controlled the rate of the frequency attenuation, above the turnover frequency. This is very useful when playing LPs that have higher than normal HF distortion, which on older LPs and many mastered in the US rather than Europe were prone to have.

I certainly use these controls when using my turntables on certain discs.

Here is a picture of my Quad 44, showing the controls.

Here is a picture of the tube Quad 22, you can see the bass and treble controls plus the two controls for HF filtering.

For really severe cases an equalizer was required, but with those controls engaging an equalizer was seldom required.

If you are playing LPs, then a Quad preamp is just a wonderful item to have, in my view indispensable. I have always had one handy for almost my entire life, certainly all my adult life. Peter Walker was an absolute giant in audio, and any products he designed were right at the top not only for performance, but versatility and reliability. I treasure his memory and all my meetings and interactions with him. He has had an enormous influence on my approach to audio engineering.

If you are really into LPs, then having a Quad preamp instead of using a phono stage or phono preamp is a massive advantage, and why I have all my four turntables connected to a Quad preamp.

I don't think these type of controls would be desirable on AVRs and AV preamps. As I say the best solution is to try and obtain a Quad 33, 44 or 34, and connect it to an RCA input. The 22 is fine also, but it was powered from a Quad II power amp. So if you use it as a standalone device, then you need to power it from a custom power supply.

A couple of Quad 22s and a custom power supply. One of the 22s I bought new in 1966, and the other was an eBay acquisition as a spare.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'm just skeptical somewhat with a subjective impression generally. It's sort of a backbone of the forum. It's possible there have been such massive changes as described but I tend to think of something described this way as more about the new gear/excitement side of things than tested fact.....but testing is hard and getting an audio oriented person not even a little excited is not the way we're built so much

I'm just somewhat doubting the change in dac/processing would produce such night and day type results....

No, it is not. I have now come to the conclusion that neither the AV 7705 or 7706 could properly play Atmos, and I think I know why.

The problem is that the levels were low, playing Atmos material and there was very low output to the surround and ceiling channels.

I just this evening played a set of Atmos discs from the BPO. This was a special 15 year anniversary edition of the BPO Digital Concert Hall. I paid a high price for the set. I never played it on the 7706, but did the 7705. it sounded awful and I was very disappointed. The level was very low and the levels from the surrounds and ceiling speakers very low. I thought it a dud. Via Internet from the BPO results tended to be similar.

Well I played those anniversary discs this evening via the AV 10. It was absolutely spectacular. The volume was normal levels, and you had a fantastic sense of being in the hall. The hall ambience and applause when it came put a lot of power to all speakers. It was as close to being there as made no difference. So on the AV 7705 playback was poor and actually unacceptable, on the AV 10 it is stunning. Yes, totally stunning.

I think I have figured this out. The AV 7705 and 7706 is conceived from an AVR and I bet the front end pretty much identical.
So, because miserable AVRs have totally inadequate power supplies and can not properly supply all channels at power, I can bet they deliberately stunted the the channels other than the front three for Atmos material. This prevented the miserable AVRs from self destructing.
There is absolutely no way to power all the power amps required for Atmos from one power supply. That is a non starter of an idea. If you try then you have to hobble it to prevent self destruction. I am sure that is the reason.

So, to properly play Atmos material you absolutely need separates and amps that can power all of the amps to full power at once.

So my rig can reach full power to all channels no problem. I am certain I know why Atmos playback did not reach its potential on those other AVPs.

So to properly reproduce Atmos you need a setup that can provide full power to all channels at the same time. I don't think there is any place for puny speakers in the bed layer channels either.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

No, it is not. I have now come to the conclusion that neither the AV 7705 or 7706 could properly play Atmos, and I think I know why.

Did you compare them both in DIRECT MODE?

Or just in the standard playback modes (Atmos, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, 2CH Stereo)?

 

[isolar8001]

Maybe the AV10 can defeat dialnorm and the AV 7705 or 7706 couldn't.
I remember this thread on AVS when I looked into why so many Atmos tracks were very low in volume.

Defeating dialnorm

Dialnorm is a type of metadata typically included in lossy/streaming Dolby Digital (DD/AC3) and Dolby Digital + (DD+/EAC3) tracks (but also though less commonly in lossless TrueHD tracks) which instructs the processor to reduce master volume by an amount equal to the difference between -31dB and...

www.avsforum.com

 

[TLS Guy]

Did you compare them both in DIRECT MODE?

Or just in the standard playback modes (Atmos, TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, 2CH Stereo)?

Not sure what you are asking. But with the 7705/7706 you had to select Atmos from the menu. On the AVP screen it would say Dolby Atmos. No upmixer involved. I obviously used the speaker settings I used for everything else.

The AV 10 is much smarter and knows what is available a self selects. All I can tell you is that Atmos on the old units was barely worth the trouble. With this AV 10 it is absolutely spectacular and is in a totally different sphere. So the others obviously did not play back Atmos sources as the original mix engineers intended, but the AV 10 does. I don't know what other brands like Yamaha or Onkyo do. I have no experience with that. So, I can tell you that those last pre/pros and I suspect probably all Denon/Marantz receivers do not play back Atmos streams properly or correctly. This AV 10 is in a totally different league, when decoding Atmos via Internet or disc. It actually works like I was led to believe it should, but that is not what the 7705 and 7706 delivered. It was way, way short of the experience the AV 10 gives me with Atmos sources. It has totally changed my view on the Atmos technology.

 

[TLS Guy]

Maybe the AV10 can defeat dialnorm and the AV 7705 or 7706 couldn't.
I remember this thread on AVS when I looked into why so many Atmos tracks were very low in volume.

Defeating dialnorm

Dialnorm is a type of metadata typically included in lossy/streaming Dolby Digital (DD/AC3) and Dolby Digital + (DD+/EAC3) tracks (but also though less commonly in lossless TrueHD tracks) which instructs the processor to reduce master volume by an amount equal to the difference between -31dB and...

www.avsforum.com

Yes, it must defeat it. It plays back at the same volume as pretty much everything else. Previously I had to play Atmos in the 0 to -4db range, but now it is -9 -10db range like everything else. This is important as if you had a source where parts were Atmos and parts not, then after going from Atmos to the upmixer, you got blasted out of you seat if you were not prepared. So this alone is a massive improvement from the AV10.

 

[Trell]

No, it is not. I have now come to the conclusion that neither the AV 7705 or 7706 could properly play Atmos, and I think I know why.

The problem is that the levels were low, playing Atmos material and there was very low output to the surround and ceiling channels.

I just this evening played a set of Atmos discs from the BPO. This was a special 15 year anniversary edition of the BPO Digital Concert Hall. I paid a high price for the set. I never played it on the 7706, but did the 7705. it sounded awful and I was very disappointed. The level was very low and the levels from the surrounds and ceiling speakers very low. I thought it a dud. Via Internet from the BPO results tended to be similar.

Well I played those anniversary discs this evening via the AV 10. It was absolutely spectacular. The volume was normal levels, and you had a fantastic sense of being in the hall. The hall ambience and applause when it came put a lot of power to all speakers. It was as close to being there as made no difference. So on the AV 7705 playback was poor and actually unacceptable, on the AV 10 it is stunning. Yes, totally stunning.

I think I have figured this out. The AV 7705 and 7706 is conceived from an AVR and I bet the front end pretty much identical.
So, because miserable AVRs have totally inadequate power supplies and can not properly supply all channels at power, I can bet they deliberately stunted the the channels other than the front three for Atmos material. This prevented the miserable AVRs from self destructing.
There is absolutely no way to power all the power amps required for Atmos from one power supply. That is a non starter of an idea. If you try then you have to hobble it to prevent self destruction. I am sure that is the reason.

So, to properly play Atmos material you absolutely need separates and amps that can power all of the amps to full power at once.

So my rig can reach full power to all channels no problem. I am certain I know why Atmos playback did not reach its potential on those other AVPs.

So to properly reproduce Atmos you need a setup that can provide full power to all channels at the same time. I don't think there is any place for puny speakers in the bed layer channels either.

So, you'll measure this to back up your claims?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not sure what you are asking.

Did you press the “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT” button?

Did the LCD Screen say “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT”?

On the AV10 and AV7706, there is a “PURE DIRECT” button behind the front panel door on top left.

There is also a button on the remote control.

This is used ONLY to test 2CH playback (NOT ATMOS) with absolutely no processing.

With ATMOS, there will be Sound PROCESSING in both AV10 and AV7706. So I can 100% understand if the AV10 sounds better in ATMOS than the AV7706.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm just skeptical somewhat with a subjective impression generally. It's sort of a backbone of the forum. It's possible there have been such massive changes as described but I tend to think of something described this way as more about the new gear/excitement side of things than tested fact.....but testing is hard and getting an audio oriented person not even a little excited is not the way we're built so much

I'm just somewhat doubting the change in dac/processing would produce such night and day type results....

Recall Marantz uses “HDAM” that @PENG warns about. It can “color” or “warm” the sound like tube amps.

So unless both units were compared in PURE DIRECT MODE 2CH, there will be Sound Processing. And the AV7706 might have worse HDAM effects than the AV10, which is a lot cleaner than the AV7706.

 

[TLS Guy]

Did you press the “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT” button?

Did the LCD Screen say “DIRECT” or “PURE DIRECT”?

On the AV10 and AV7706, there is a “PURE DIRECT” button behind the front panel door on top left.

There is also a button on the remote control.

This is used ONLY to test 2CH playback (NOT ATMOS) with absolutely no processing.

With ATMOS, there will be Sound PROCESSING in both AV10 and AV7706. So I can 100% understand if the AV10 sounds better in ATMOS than the AV7706.

I never used the pure Direct Button. The AVP screen has always said Dolby Atmos. The fact is this unit plays Dolby Atmos correctly and the others did not. I suspect most units from that stable do not play Atmos correctly.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I never used the pure Direct Button.

Cannot believe you’ve been using Marantz for so many years and never used Pure Direct (PD) mode for 2CH music.

With Denon/Marantz, you can actually use PD mode and still have BASS/LFE management, unlike all other companies.

I sing Karaoke, so I know all about using PD mode.

If you use any other modes other than D/PD mode, there will always be sound processing which causes a slight delay in sound compared to live feed signal (Microphone).

 

[Trell]

I never used the pure Direct Button. The AVP screen has always said Dolby Atmos. The fact is this unit plays Dolby Atmos correctly and the others did not. I suspect most units from that stable do not play Atmos correctly.

How are the measurements going? A higher output level from an AVP should be straightforward?

 

[TLS Guy]

Cannot believe you’ve been using Marantz for so many years and never used Pure Direct (PD) mode for 2CH music.

With Denon/Marantz, you can actually use PD mode and still have BASS/LFE management, unlike all other companies.

I try and change as few buttons as possible. Set it and play is my moto. I have used pure direct occassionally.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I try and change as few buttons as possible. Set it and play is my moto. I have used pure direct occassionally.

I don’t use PD mode either unless I sing Karaoke.

But it is always good to COMPARE PD mode 2CH vs Stereo 2CH to see if you can hear the difference. Some components aren’t as transparent as others when it comes to processing sound, as in the case of your AV10 vs AV7706.

 

[Trell]

So we can’t just look at some DAC or some SINAD numbers and say that one AVP should sound the same as another?

This is a straw man that you've bandied around before. As a seller your comment make sense in order to protect your income at the expense of your marks, which, of course, makes totally sense.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is a straw man that you've bandied around before. As a seller your comment make sense in order to protect your income at the expense of your marks, which, of course, makes totally sense.

I think anyone who has known me for a long time on AH knows that I belong in the “all amps sound the same, any PROCESSORS NOT IN PD MODE can sound different” camp.

But IMO it’s not worth the time or energy to argue about the topic.

In TLS Guy’s case, there is logic to me - he did not compare the AVPs in DIRECT MODE 2CH.

Anytime you compare sound processing, there is potential for significant SQ difference, especially if the AVP uses things like HDAM or other processing.

 

[Trebdp83]

This is why documented comparisons using the same settings in a given pair of systems is so very important in solving a mystery. We have nothing of the kind here. Dialogue Normalization is still alive and well by the way.

Pure Direct and Direct will disable certain functions when selected for playback with a claim that Pure Direct will deliver better sound when turning off the display and video function. Refer to the Sound Mode and Surround Parameter charts for the functions available for use with each sound mode.

Without knowing anything about the settings, sources and input signals of every listening occasion on each system, there is no way to figure out why one system would deliver better perceived sound than the other. While the “early review and impressions” here are interesting, they are anything but scientific.

Improvements by Dolby to Dolby Atmos/Dolby Surround processing means new units will benefit from them. That does not mean older units did a bad job with prior iterations of Dolby processing.

The AV 10 is an extremely capable machine with its abilities limited only by a user’s lack of knowledge. I’m often surprised by many in various forums spending considerable amounts of money on advanced AVPs, AVRs, TVs and media devices about which they seem to know very little or nothing at all.