Simaudio Moon CP-8 AV Processor: A Denon Receiver in Sim Clothing?

[gene]

Sorry your prior posts were from a Mexico IP address.

I appreciate your generous offer of flying me out to your place to run a test. But before you buy my plane ticket and arrange for lodging, I think it would be best for you to publish your test plan here along with photos of your ABX Box. The burden of proof of your claims is on YOU not ME. This is especially true for your claims of audible differences between HDMI cables. Right off the bat that kills your credibility but let's keep an open mind and just ignore your wild claims about cables and focus on the electronics.

• First you claim the 8801 is superior b/c of HDAM. I wonder why you think HDAM is so special over any other manufacturers amp topology? What makes it so unique? Is it the current-feedback stage? If so, you do realize the Denon AVP uses current feedback too right?

• If it's not HDAM what else can it be? Jitter you claim? Well how can that be since every modern piece of AV gear with HDMI 1.3 or higher implementation has pretty much rendered jitter a non issue. Also I measured all digital aspects of the AVP and it achieved near theoretical perfection for every test. If the AVP had a jitter problem it would have easily shown up.

• So what else is there? It can't be the DACs as you admit the AVP DAC's are superior. It can't be the DSP chips since they have similar architectures there.

I think Kevin Zarrow is doing a great job on convincing you of the wonders of HDAM and Marantz. He is a great salesman/marketing guy and he is very likeable. Anytime I get off the phone with him, I'm ready to buy a Marantz product too. I think he planted the HDAM bug in your head and the power of suggestion is very strong. I often fall for that as well so there is no shame in admitting that as a possible source of bias.

I am a skeptic at nature. So I like to listen to products in my own environment first, and then measure them second. I don't allow my measurements to bias my subjective experience. I use measurements ONLY as a tool to find out if there is a problem with a product. I say this in many editorials so please don't put words in my mouth that I listen with my measurement devices. I often get criticized here claiming over reliance on measurements can lead to false conclusions.

So my experience with Marantz's very best preamp section which is found in the PM11S3 is that it's a great product as an integrated amp. However the preouts don't have near the output drive, low noise floor and distortion of the AVP. It's NOT even close. When I switch between my two systems using the PM11S3 as the preamp vs the AVP, the noise floor drops to nothing on the AVP. A lot of this has to do with the grounding scheme Marantz utilized on this product but also the output drive of the latest HDAM is quite lacking compared to the last generation. I'm a bit disappointed by this as you can read in my review. Marantz engineering even acknowledged the HDAM circuits of the S3 is not the equal of the S2 b/c they can't source those op-amps anymore.

So by ALL means, post your test procedure and show photos of your ABX box. I think people would like to see that.

While you're at it, perhaps you can answer the following questions to:

• Do you prefer the 8801 over the AVP for all sources or just digital ones? If digital, which sources and which connection types?
• Do you have both processors plugged into the same source?
• Since you claim to hear a difference in HDMI cables, are you using the same HDMI cables in the comparison?
• Is your ABX box passive or active?
• Are you instantaneously switching while also preserving level matching between systems?
• Do you have Audyssey engaged or disengaged?
• Are the bass management settings the same for both products?

Feel free to provide the name and location of your dealership here. I am sure with our 1 million+ monthly readership there are a few forum folks here lurking around that are within driving distance that would love to experience your demo.

It seems not many people read posts. I clearly stated that I reside in MN (that is "Minnesota"). I was in "Mexico" and the abbreviation for that is MX.

Since you assume I am a lair, you will notice my IP address yesterday was in MX. Now I am at my lake home in northern MN (see how it correlates). Next week if I don't give up on your site, I will be in my home in AZ (Arizona).

Re: the AVP advertisement. Put Denon followed by A1HDCI into Audiogon's search engine. Note, there is a guy who has an advertisement for a Denon prepro. That person selling is from MN (not MX).

If you like and in a private email, I will supply some FEDEX Freight weight bills showing I sent off several used Denon AVP's to customers. Furthermore, I'd be delighted to ask my customers if they would like to talk to you personally on the phone. You can tell them how misinformed they are. How they didn't hear what they thought they heard. Let them know your measurements positively proved otherwise (even though YOU never tested them side-by-side with your ear). Please explain to them that the ONLY way to know if they got a better product was by a scientific double blind test of course, listen to what your measurement say). Also. If they call Denon or Marantz and ask which sound "better to them" and they say the 8801, tell them they are only out to sell new product. Additionally, please explain that the designers who wanted to include "inferior" sounding HDAM's forgot to ask your opinion. Then they will tell you why they were skeptical yet they kept the 8801. I know... I have too much bite in my post. I am simply reciprocating. How about we shift the tone in future posts to be more professional. Agreed? :



Gene. Do you own an ABX box? I do. Since you seem to question everything that I post, would you like to see a picture of it? Maybe I can take a picture of it in front of two Denon 4520's showing you that I own them as well. I have two in my home (2 systems). I also own a QSC ABX box. Since we are questioning a crucial piece of test equipment, maybe you too can put up a picture of your ABX box too. Kind of a mutually assured B.S. verification.

I've spent MANY hours listening HOW to test and pass in the blind. Most of the people who claim to experts on this topic of listening in the blind have not done squat. Your forum is full of them. The 3 hours of research in the topic has been parroted in every forum across the globe and tidbits have been regurgitated time and time again until it has become "fact". Your post^^ showed how too many parroted tidbits so I know you haven't done much on the topic. So ambiguity is key. Because by being specific can only suck me into posting on a topic that has been debated for years with absolutely no resolution. If I had an ounce of intelligence, I would have chuckled at Marshall's 5 year old news that a customer linked to me and saved several hours of wasted words.

With that in mind, let's see how you do in the blind. You want me to believe you are the expert and that I don't know squat. Tell me where you live and I will fly out to you on my nickel and test you in the blind. Do you have that courage to put your credibility on the line? From experience, that is a real tough one to do with such visibility. I will also help you learn why it is IMPOSSIBLE to pass in the blind when you are under "stress". "Stress" (from talking with real experts on the topic) is why your system sounds good one day and not as good another. When it doesn't sound as good that one day, I will show you how no human being can pass. I've could type for another 20 hours. But I don't dare. Only the lurkers really like to learn and they are afraid of the rabid know-it-all posters. I diverge...

I'd be happy to talk on the phone about the topic at hand. I don't have the energy or time for people who assume they know about a topic (by parroting) and tell me how wrong I am. Hence, the intentional ambiguity. Hint: I am tossing you a life-line to avoid embarrassment. Trust me, you don't know if you are going to pass when I interject some stress. That statement alone has 30 paragraphs behind it and is backed up by research I learned about around 2005.

So in the end of the day, I have no preconceived ideals of what what sounds "better" or "worse". That statement of course opens yet another can of worms that parroting members will come after me on. Here in our fine state, we have a fairly large group of us that like to A-B-C-D-E-F different gear. We use to post some of it on AVS but I've explained how worthless it is to argue. So none of us post what we learn. No one is going to change others minds. For instance, did you change your mind Gene? You didn't change minds by typed words. Back to the topic.... Now, more often than not I have resorted to just listening to a couple of different products side by side at the same volume level. Because if the difference is large enough, my ears correlate to what happens when I hook up my QSC ABX box.

So if there are any MN members on here, PM me and you are invited to attend our events. We test in the blind, and we compare all of our notes. Nearly always what one person hears is what th other hears (to varying degrees) Those who attend will learn a lot and we go around to various homes to see what others have learned.

With that said, Gene. Let's say you give your objective fan base some proof you are the real-deal. When would you like me to flyout to test you in the blind? I'll bring one of those HDMI cables I was talking about too. I'll show you how I pass (disclaimer: only with a 12Gbps HDMI cable versus a >>22Gbps cable). So I will only be bringing one cable. The one with the widest bandwidth (by far) in the world. The one you never heard (or we wouldn't be debating) but knew I was full of it. I will show you why people fail in the blind too and why is it such a controversial topic. How about it?

 

[fuzz092888]

Sound Video Inc. | Finer Home Theater and Audio Systems

His name is Steve and his wife is Sherry and they are located in Minnesota, according to the information he provided.

Feel free to provide the name and location of your dealership here. I am sure with our 1 million+ monthly readership there are a few forum folks here lurking around that are within driving distance that would love to experience your demo.

 

[alphaiii]

I've taken in about 10 on trade for 8801's. 100% of the purchasers hear the benefits. So if the Denon AVP "measures better", again, I don't care.

It's a funny thing how people often "hear" improvements when the new gear costs more.

 

[gene]

It's a funny thing how people often "hear" improvements when the new gear costs more.

In this case the "new" gear costs less I just don't see that many AVPs for sale these days but hey its a good business to take a high value product in for trade, then turn around and sell it while also selling the client an "upgrade".

 

[alphaiii]

In this case the "new" gear costs less I just don't see that many AVPs for sale these days but hey its a good business to take a high value product in for trade, then turn around and sell it while also selling the client an "upgrade".

Yep, I misread... Thought he meant trade-ins of the Denon for the SimAudio. My eff-up on that one. Perhaps there is truth to the argument that multitasking is a bad thing...

 

[gene]

In 2008, the Denon analog guys had less overlap with the Marantz guys. Look at the DSP engine of the 8003 Marantz versus the AVP as well as the analog section. The Denon and Marantz products were very different different. We are talking about a AVP product designed in 2008. Can we agree that even the same team and 5 years of experience will result in (hopefully) advancements (subjective SQ and VQ)?

As far as the latest Denon and Marantz receivers, they are more alike than they are different. The latest generation of Marantz receivers are 95% Denon. They have a few upgrades in the analog sections over the equivalent Denon models and that is it. Marantz did the right thing allowing Denon to do most of the grunt work b/c Denon already had the superior digital architecture developed.

See: http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/marantz-sr5008-sr6008-sr7008

 

[AV_Nut]

You didn't read my words correctly Gene. I said I will fly out to you. I want to see your powers in action and can also see mine. This makes it easier for you. Plus. Do you really want to come out to MN? The high will be 13 in a coupe of days. Disclaimer: If your room sucks, I cannot pass nor will you. But since you have passed in the blind, I am very sure your room sounds great. I don't care what speakers you use or what amps. Again, if YOU pass, I will pass.

Good call. I may of been BSing you that I own a double blind ABX box. So I attached a picture. It is the internet after all. In private, I will share with you several reviewers who have never heard the product yet gave it a rave review. It's a dirty business when advertising is involved. To make sure it is a recent picture, I put a Parasound P5 underneath. They have not shipped until November of 2013. In suspect I am the only dealer that owns a true double blind ABX box. My customers also can borrow it anytime they like. It's my way of making sure they have every opportunity to understand I am not "money motivated". As you see, the box is simply called QSC ABX Comparator. If memory serves me, they made a total of 100, almost 20 years ago. I bet they have 75 in stock!

Re: the burden. Let's both take the plunge at your place. Now remember Gene. You were the one that said the AVP was better. I was the one who said I preferred the 8801. You are the reviewer and your credibility could be at stake. Think how good this will be for your site. Of course it could be terrible as well. Remember the Boston Audiophile example. OUCH! No reviewer who has made such claims has ever had the courage to try that claims they hear a difference. It i pretty easy to fail.

To be even clearer, you just said you test in the blind all before you measurements. Hence, you have had to pass in the blind. After all, how could you say you liked something better without statistically proving it to yourself??? That's why you were questioning why I had to be wrong. I'm simply making sure you did your due diligence. Disclaimer: I have not tested myself in the blind USING THE ABX box specifically on the AVP and the 8801. I tested in the blind in one of shootouts at a customers home or at my place with just a few data points. NOT statistically significant. As I hope you admit, you don't do a blind test on every review. Can we agree? I can hone my skills here. But let's see how we both do.

As to the method, I'll look for the online manual and post it a like. It is as straight forward as can be. It's as simple as level match via a signal generator, and A will be the Denon, B will be the 8801. You simply pick A or B (and hit the X button). You can go back and forth as many times as you want. You can take all day too. What we won't be comparing is the noise floor without a signal. So no cheating )I agree the AVP has a lower noise floor. But I don't listen to systems very often without a signal.

If you like, we can then go off to Wireword. They are in FL as well. Hey. They sell rather expensive HDMI cables (the only ones I prefer are the Starlight Series 7 or better). I could not pass if I wanted to on their non-patented "slower" stuff. Let's see if they have zero credibility in your eyes after you hear and see their hardcore engineering in action. They happen to be THE fastest HDMI cables. I can see if I can borrow their demo room.

I am not sharing my methodology on how I pass ahead of time. You will learn that secret when I pass and you (more than likely) fail. I have not had ONE customer pass until I told them how. Then I will show you how to test and pass (if your room is good). We can then try some amps. You pick them. A tube amp and how about a Krell amp. Measure them a head of time. Here will be the lesson: you will soon learn how little people know about this topic. A HUGE hint. Passing (for me at least) is as counter intuitive as you can ever imagine.

Re: Kevin. Salesman or not. His ears work like ours. He is an honest guy. He told me HDMI is "better" because his engineers told him the HDMI sound better. It is every bit of their literature. That said, do you know how many times I have been lied to? A brand may say: So and so sounds good. No it didn't! So Kevin has always delivered. That said, I don't care if they use bread wrappers to hold their equipment together. I don't care what the specs say or if they tell me if it is "better". If I hear it is better then I honestly prefer it. My credibility is at stake with my customer. I'm the anti-plecebo as well. I fully predict I am more suspicious that you. Call Larry Smith at WW. Ask him about a conversation as to how incredibly specious of "wires" in general. Their (patented) HDMI is the real-deal. Like anything, I offer a full refund and I pay shipping back. I am allergic to wasting my time.

I'm going to leave you an out. Sometimes it's more important to save face. Let me know if you are just too busy. I can work around your schedule. No room correction. Just HDMI in using the same cables. Pick a DVD player what has 2 HDMI's out.

For those of you who think it is child's play to statistically pass a double blind ABX test, think again and as some Mayo clinical audiologists have explained to be, there are technical reasons why.

 

[AV_Nut]

It's a funny thing how people often "hear" improvements when the new gear costs more.

The Denon is $7500 and they are trading it in for a $3600 prepro. This is the anti placebo when it the less expensive retail amp sticks. Do you know how had it can be to get someone to listen when they know the more expensive product must be better.

 

[alphaiii]

The Denon is $7500 and they are trading it in for a $3600 prepro.

Yeah, I misread and thought you were talking about the Denon for the Simaudio....in which case I wouldn't have been surprised that people thought the more expensive gear sounded better.

Do you know how had it can be to get someone to listen when they know the more expensive product must be better.

I can imagine...

 

[AV_Nut]

[*]First you claim the 8801 is superior b/c of HDAM. I wonder why you think HDAM is so special over any other manufacturers amp topology? What makes it so unique? Is it the current-feedback stage? If so, you do realize the Denon AVP uses current feedback too right?

You should be asking the engineer and company who make these claims. If I spoke Japanese, I would ask. All I know is I prefer the 8801, some folks at D&M prefer it, and HDAM is plastered all over their literature. So without doing the physical design myself (I've been 20 years out of circuit related design so I would be highly UNqualified), I don't know precisely nor do you. As I have said countless times, I only really care about the end result. I pay attention to what suppliers say because customers who refuse to "just listen" need ammunition to simply try before they buy.

Side note: I've been talking to IR (international rectifier) about a project. They too asked: "Do you want the one that specs out the best or the one that sounds the best." He was the director of engineering. According to him (I am ordering eval boards of both) the cheaper "inferior ones" sound better. Would you privately like to see that email in print?

Also, "better" models of stereo preamps generally have a lot more discrete components. One reason for that is the control of the design is a key element.

[*]If it's not HDAM what else can it be? Jitter you claim? Well how can that be since every modern piece of AV gear with HDMI 1.3 or higher implementation has pretty much rendered jitter a non issue. Also I measured all digital aspects of the AVP and it achieved near theoretical perfection for every test. If the AVP had a jitter problem it would have easily shown up.
.

I rotated out an HDMI cable (customer PROMISED me I would hear a difference and I thought "no fricken way will it matter". It was April of 2013. Low and behold, since 2007 (HDMI's origin) this was the 1st time I heard a difference. Since then, I have sold about 30 of these cables exclusively for the key audio component (HTPC or DVD). I press hard: "You MUST try them". 1/2 say no way, I know better. I offer a strong reimbursement if I am wrong. Some heard nothing an back it came (maybe 3??). But the remainder kept it and some of the most hardened disbelievers were gushing about how they were in shock. They too knew better.

I heard reclocking boxes at CES with a Verity Audio system and Esoteric. DAMN! Those $5K silly boxes worked. I suspect I was the only person how asked them to put them in and out. Back and forth. Back and forth. Again, I knew they didn't matter. Because in 2013, jitter is the thing of the past. I can go one for 30 more examples including those overprice vibrating thingies that Synergistic Research uses. Are you going to CES? Let's meet up. I will pick up your jaw when you listen to them over and over an over. I sat through about 10 demos in a row. I am still in complete disbelief.

What was my message? I am starting to try to disengage my technical brain because I get confused when Vince at Totem puts those silly metal thingies on the corner of his speakers and I hear the imaging pop into action. Hence. Sometimes I throw in the towel and stop arguing with my ears. I fully predict I can recreate that ubber fast HDMI cable experiment right in front of your eyes and ears.

What else can it be as to why the 8801 is better? Well. Maybe the volume control or layout or coupling capacitors or reserve on the power supply or the fact that they have a million miles of circuit distance (because of the card slot approach). Or maybe just maybe the cheaper DAC's sound better (yet measure worse). Note the word OR. I didn't say AND. Maybe the designers really don't know and at the end of the day, it just doesn't sound as good.

Feel free to provide the name and location of your dealership here. I am sure with our 1 million+ monthly readership there are a few forum folks here lurking around that are within driving distance that would love to experience your demo.

I'm at 612-308-7736. I own Sound Video Sound Video Inc. | Finer Home Theater and Audio Systems . I'd be happy to show anybody and everybody when we have are group listening session. I fly out often to layout systems and tune them up. So it isn't always easy to hook-up at a perfect time. But the most hardened naysayers jaws WILL drop if your ears work like the rest of ours. They they never show because they "know they are right.

Gene. With our new mellower tone, I am convinced you are an o.k. guy. My best guess is factually could learn a thing or two from you. I never want to be that typical dealer. I bought the ABX box to figure out if I could actually pass in the blind. To my dismay, I FAILED with $100 Chinese amp (forget which one) and a Sunfire. I failed between a tube amp and a DC coupled ultra wide bandwidth Krell. In my head at least, I would be so incredibly easy to pass. I know I know. Some think it is easy. Not. When I am guessing on a DBT, I know it. When I can pass, my mood has everything to do with if I can hear any difference. HOW I pass then has everything to do with methodology and many parts are counter intuitive and the complete opposite of what people talk about auditory memory. That is false as nearly every enthusiast on the board privately acknowledges: they know when it sounds better or worse more often than not. Those conversations are for a later conversation over a beer or on the phone.

 

[gene]

I appreciate your generous offer of flying me out to your place to run a test. But before you buy my plane ticket and arrange for lodging, I think it would be best for you to publish your test plan here along with photos of your ABX Box. View attachment 12671

You didn't read my words correctly again. I said I will fly out to you. I want to see your powers in action and can also see mine. This makes it easier for you. Plus. Do you really want to come out to MN? The high will be 13 in a coupe of days. Disclaimer: If your room sucks, I cannot pass nor will you. But since you have passed in the blind, I am very sure your room sounds great. I don't care what speakers you use or what amps. Again, if YOU pass, I will pass.

Good call. I may of been BSing you that I own a double blind ABX box. So I attached a picture. It is the internet after all. In private, I will share with you several reviewers who have never heard the product yet gave it a rave review. It's a dirty business when advertising is involved. To make sure it is a recent picture, I put a Parasound P5 underneath. They have not shipped until November of 2013. In suspect I am the only dealer that owns a true double blind ABX box. My customers also can borrow it anytime they like. It's my way of making sure they have every opportunity to understand I am not "money motivated". As you see, the box is simply called QSC ABX Comparator. If memory serves me, they made a total of 100, almost 20 years ago. I bet they have 75 in stock!

Re: the burden. Let's both take the plunge at your place. Now remember Gene. You were the one that said the AVP was better. I was the one who said I preferred the 8801. You are the reviewer and your credibility could be at stake. Think how good this will be for your site. Of course it could be terrible as well. Remember the Boston Audiophile example. OUCH! No reviewer who has made such claims has ever had the courage to try that claims they hear a difference. It i pretty easy to fail.

To be even clearer, you just said you test in the blind all before you measurements. Hence, you have had to pass in the blind. After all, how could you say you liked something better without statistically proving it to yourself??? That's why you were questioning why I had to be wrong. I'm simply making sure you did your due diligence. Disclaimer: I have not tested myself in the blind USING THE ABX box specifically on the AVP and the 8801. I tested in the blind in one of shootouts at a customers home or at my place with just a few data points. NOT statistically significant. As I hope you admit, you don't do a blind test on every review. Can we agree? I can hone my skills here. But let's see how we both do.

As to the method, I'll look for the online manual and post it a like. It is as straight forward as can be. It's as simple as level match via a signal generator, and A will be the Denon, B will be the 8801. You simply pick A or B (and hit the X button). You can go back and forth as many times as you want. You can take all day too. What we won't be comparing is the noise floor without a signal. So no cheating )I agree the AVP has a lower noise floor. But I don't listen to systems very often without a signal.

If you like, we can then go off to Wireword. They are in FL as well. Hey. They sell rather expensive HDMI cables (the only ones I prefer are the Starlight Series 7 or better). I could not pass if I wanted to on their non-patented "slower" stuff. Let's see if they have zero credibility in your eyes after you hear and see their hardcore engineering in action. They happen to be THE fastest HDMI cables. I can see if I can borrow their demo room.

I am not sharing my methodology on how I pass ahead of time. You will learn that secret when I pass and you (more than likely) fail. I have not had ONE customer pass until I told them how. Then I will show you how to test and pass (if your room is good). We can then try some amps. You pick them. A tube amp and how about a Krell amp. Measure them a head of time. Here will be the lesson: you will soon learn how little people know about this topic. A HUGE hint. Passing (for me at least) is as counter intuitive as you can ever imagine.

Re: Kevin. Salesman or not. His ears work like ours. He is an honest guy. He told me HDMI is "better" because his engineers told him the HDMI sound better. It is every bit of their literature. That said, do you know how many times I have been lied to? A brand may say: So and so sounds good. No it didn't! So Kevin has always delivered. That said, I don't care if they use bread wrappers to hold their equipment together. I don't care what the specs say or if they tell me if it is "better". If I hear it is better then I honestly prefer it. My credibility is at stake with my customer. I'm the anti-plecebo as well. I fully predict I am more suspicious that you. Call Larry Smith at WW. Ask him about a conversation as to how incredibly specious of "wires" in general. Their (patented) HDMI is the real-deal. Like anything, I offer a full refund and I pay shipping back. I am allergic to wasting my time.

I'm going to leave you an out. Sometimes it's more important to save face. Let me know if you are just too busy. I can work around your schedule. No room correction. Just HDMI in using the same cables. Pick a DVD player what has 2 HDMI's out.

For those of you who think it is child's play to statistically pass a double blind ABX test, think again and as some Mayo clinical audiologists have explained to be, there are technical reasons why.

Thanks for the offer but I don't bring guests into my room unless they are close friends or manufacturers. You are neither but I do welcome your contributions here.

You can read about my system here:
Audioholics Showcase Home Theater Overview Revamped | Audioholics

I never said the 8001 is sonically inferior to the AVP. I haven't reviewed that product and may not do so in the future if its soon to be replaced. I will check with Kevin on the product roadmap.

My only experience with HDAM has been on the PM-11S2 and S3 and in that regard there is NOTHING special about the circuit. It's a cool name but that's about it. ON the other hand the Denon AVP has the best performing analog section I've ever measured and to my ears it sounds great. I've also had many manufacturers and industry pros here and they've all commented on how its the best setup they've ever heard.

We are also pretty well versed on blind testing protocol and the abuse of the term by consumers and especially manufacturers. We have several articles on this very topic that I encourage you to read if you're interested.

The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Loudspeaker Science | Audioholics

Revealing Flaws in the Loudspeaker Demo & Double Blind Test | Audioholics

How to Skew a Blind Listening Test | Audioholics

I know very little about the QSC comparitor. I built my own passive line level switcher to run comparisons as I don't like many of the active switch boxes. Many of them have their own inherent problems that I've found though the years of testing.

As for the HDMI testing, this is my reply:
Audioquest "BoomBox" Vendor Demo: Legit or Slick Marketing? | Audioholics

 

[AV_Nut]

Thanks for the offer but I don't bring guests into my room unless they are close friends or manufacturers. You are neither but I do welcome your contributions here.

You can read about my system here:
Audioholics Showcase Home Theater Overview Revamped | Audioholics

I never said the 8001 is sonically inferior to the AVP. I haven't reviewed that product and may not do so in the future if its soon to be replaced. I will check with Kevin on the product roadmap.

My only experience with HDAM has been on the PM-11S2 and S3 and in that regard there is NOTHING special about the circuit. It's a cool name but that's about it. ON the other hand the Denon AVP has the best performing analog section I've ever measured and to my ears it sounds great. I've also had many manufacturers and industry pros here and they've all commented on how its the best setup they've ever heard.

We are also pretty well versed on blind testing protocol and the abuse of the term by consumers and especially manufacturers. We have several articles on this very topic that I encourage you to read if you're interested.

The Insanity of Marketing Disguised as Loudspeaker Science | Audioholics

Revealing Flaws in the Loudspeaker Demo & Double Blind Test | Audioholics

How to Skew a Blind Listening Test | Audioholics

I know very little about the QSC comparitor. I built my own passive line level switcher to run comparisons as I don't like many of the active switch boxes. Many of them have their own inherent problems that I've found though the years of testing.

As for the HDMI testing, this is my reply:
Audioquest "BoomBox" Vendor Demo: Legit or Slick Marketing? | Audioholics

You have said that the AVP is superior and the 8801 is inferior measurement wise. Your "Trading down" earlier comment means that it sounds or looks (PQ) inferior. What else can it mean? Furthermore, the AVP has less features. So if it sounds the same (forget the measurement) and it is less money, we are in far better shape. On the other hand, I say it is superior sounding. But after all of this debating, you never heard it and only have the desire to get one if you review it. That's illogical in my mind. My free advice is go listen to the 8801 and compare. Also go listen to the WW Starlight Series 7 HDMI and compare.

Re: the 8801, don't expect a replacement in 2014. I've already checked.

You don't want people in your place to do blind testing. Understood. Nor do you want to go to WW in FL. You could have been the 1st review who knows there is a difference that can show their blind listening passing abilities. After all, you have outed those people who claim they listen in the blind. Lurkers minds may now wonder too. That said, you are a very smart man to pass on my offer. In the spirit of honesty, it's all downside for you and really no upside. As you may know, it is incredibly easy to fail. Since the challenge is off, give me a call if you ever want to know how to pass.

I do sincerely wish you a great day! The horse has been beaten.

Edit: One more final point to mention (this will be my last point). I do believe Gene hears what he hears and his heart is in the right place. I am not so convinced he is really testing in the blind properly. When he listens side-by-side and takes a short cut, I fully predict he gets it right. It is a pain in the rear-end to double blind test when comparing. Hence, 80% of the time I hear what I hear JUST like everyone else does and take shortcuts. Mysteriously, the bulk of my observations match other peoples ears that do the same thing.

I didn't think I was clear (hence my edit). I still think Gene is a good guy and a value to the audio community. No one ever agrees on every topic. It was fair for him to ask for some credibility with what he thought was outlandish claims on my part. So we will agree to disagree.

 

[gene]

You have said that the AVP is superior and the 8801 is inferior measurement wise. Your "Trading down" earlier comment means that it sounds or looks (PQ) inferior. What else can it mean? Furthermore, the AVP has less features. So if it sounds the same (forget the measurement) and it is less money, we are in far better shape. On the other hand, I say it is superior sounding. But after all of this debating, you never heard it and only have the desire to get one if you review it. That's illogical in my mind. My free advice is go listen to the 8801 and compare. Also go listen to the WW Starlight Series 7 HDMI and compare.

Re: the 8801, don't expect a replacement in 2014. I've already checked.

You don't want people in your place to do blind testing. Understood. Nor do you want to go to WW in FL. You could have been the 1st review who knows there is a difference that can show their blind listening passing abilities. After all, you have outed those people who claim they listen in the blind. Lurkers minds may now wonder too. That said, you are a very smart man to pass on my offer. In the spirit of honesty, it's all downside for you and really no upside. As you may know, it is incredibly easy to fail. Since the challenge is off, give me a call if you ever want to know how to pass.

I do sincerely wish you a great day! The horse has been beaten.

Edit: One more final point to mention (this will be my last point). I do believe Gene hears what he hears and his heart is in the right place. I am not so convinced he is really testing in the blind properly. When he listens side-by-side and takes a short cut, I fully predict he gets it right. It is a pain in the rear-end to double blind test when comparing. Hence, 80% of the time I hear what I hear JUST like everyone else does and take shortcuts. Mysteriously, the bulk of my observations match other peoples ears that do the same thing.

I didn't I was clear (hence my edit). I still think Gene is a good guy and a value to the audio community. No one ever agrees on every topic. It was fair for him to ask for some credibility with what he thought was outlandish claims on my part. So we will agree to disagree.

Thanks but you love to put words in people's mouth so I wont sit here and debate and allow this to continue on. It's about as productive as arguing with the Black Knight from Monty Python

I know the internals of the AVP and 8801. Both products are great. I have no desire to change out my AVP b/c it serves my needs and has the best preamp section I've ever heard or measured. I also have the latest hardware update but I don't use 3D nor do I use Audyssey much either. The only way I will ever change it out is if Marantz implements a very customized bass management option I need for my system in their next product. Then I may consider it assuming it also does everything else right after I test and evaluate it.

You can continue to claim I don't know how to run a DBT but last time I checked, I am the owner/operator of the industry's largest read AV website. My tech articles are peer reviewed. We have published SEVERAL blind shootouts on this site disclosing our complete test procedure and any possible biases. Although I am not infallible, my work is out for the public to examine and scrutinize. I don't need to make a secret phone call to find out how to trick a test. Nor do I need your validation on the integrity of the content on this site.

I don't ask that you like me or endorse what I do. However, when I smell BS, I call it and this thread is stinking pretty badly right now.

If you were truly serious about this topic, then you would submit a test plan for our peer review. If I feel it's solid enough I may even publish it on this site. If not, let's leave it like that and move on. Seems like you have a method of getting your customers to trade down products and be happy at the same time while also selling them overpriced HDMI cables that are allegedly sonically superior. Good for you and good luck in your business.

 

[AV_Nut]

Thanks but you love to put words in people's mouth so I wont sit here and debate and allow this to continue on. It's about as productive as arguing with the Black Knight from Monty Python

I know the internals of the AVP and 8801. Both products are great. I have no desire to change out my AVP b/c it serves my needs and has the best preamp section I've ever heard or measured. I also have the latest hardware update but I don't use 3D nor do I use Audyssey much either. The only way I will ever change it out is if Marantz implements a very customized bass management option I need for my system in their next product. Then I may consider it assuming it also does everything else right after I test and evaluate it.

You can continue to claim I don't know how to run a DBT but last time I checked, I am the owner/operator of the industry's largest read AV website. My tech articles are peer reviewed. We have published SEVERAL blind shootouts on this site disclosing our complete test procedure and any possible biases. Although I am not infallible, my work is out for the public to examine and scrutinize. I don't need to make a secret phone call to find out how to trick a test. Nor do I need your validation on the integrity of the content on this site.

I don't ask that you like me or endorse what I do. However, when I smell BS, I call it and this thread is stinking pretty badly right now.

If you were truly serious about this topic, then you would submit a test plan for our peer review. If I feel it's solid enough I may even publish it on this site. If not, let's leave it like that and move on. Seems like you have a method of getting your customers to trade down products and be happy at the same time while also selling them overpriced HDMI cables that are allegedly sonically superior. Good for you and good luck in your business.

I thought we were done. A wise person once told me that a person never wants to get into a p_ssing contest. Because both parties get wet.

Yes. It is stinking pretty bad like B.S.. Are you hearing yourself right now? Let me summarize: you said ^^ you know the 8801. But we agreed you never heard it. Earlier, you said you never said the AVP sounded better. Well does it sound better, worse or equal? Now you are saying I found a way hoodwink my customers (on a product you admit you have no clue if it sounds better) and now you are calling it a downgrade. Really? Sorry Gene. How am I supposed to figure that logic train out??? So yes, I did put words in your mouth because I THOUGHT I understood your reasoning. But I still come up empty.

I get it... You explained that you don't care because you are delighted. That makes perfect sense. Honestly "a peer reviewed objective website" owner who calls my statements into question yet says he doesn't know if they are even equal (yet factually a sonic downgrade) is really a strange change-up. I simply cannot follow.

I can see why it would upset you if I said you didn't want to be tested using an ABX blind test. Cut to the chase. It is true. NO REVIEWER has agreed to it and we both know why. As I said, you were smart to decline no matter if you wrote the book on DBT theory. I am not going to push you to be a jerk. You don't have to accommodate. Therefore you shouldn't. But you want my technique approach on paper. I told you. They make the QSC ABX box that literally does all of the method and testing for you. What the heck is THAT going to prove other than going round and around? So when you came after me, I pointed out some flaws in your logic. I took it personal and obviously you have too.

I am not trying to take anything away from you. But when you question my experience and brain power and say I lack credibility and ethics, I shot back at an easy target. One by one I offered you information: I am a dealer, I am technical, I own a ABX box, I can back up my words with a visit, etc. Instead, you still attack.

People are sitting back and eating popcorn watching us behave like children. Let's be smart. Let's agree to disagree. I tried exiting on a positve note before so I will summarize below with some more complements. I'll try again. Your website is incredibly successful because you add value and you work your butt off. Your site really is looking out for snake oil and obvious flaws in the industry that we belong to. You have a great site here Gene. You add value. You don't always get it right nor do I. You are looked up to by many in this industry and do a lot better job than most sites or publications. There is no reason that you have to question my point of view and my approach. I propose we both park our well deserved egos.

Let's end it on that note and I wish you the very best in your endeavors.

 

[gene]

I thought we were done. A wise person once told me that a person never wants to get into a p_ssing contest. Because both parties get wet.

Yes. It is stinking pretty bad like B.S.. Are you hearing yourself right now? Let me summarize: you said ^^ you know the 8801. But we agreed you never heard it. Earlier, you said you never said the AVP sounded better. Well does it sound better, worse or equal? Now you are saying I found a way hoodwink my customers (on a product you admit you have no clue if it sounds better) and now you are calling it a downgrade. Really? Sorry Gene. How am I supposed to figure that logic train out??? So yes, I did put words in your mouth because I THOUGHT I understood your reasoning. But I still come up empty.

I get it... You explained that you don't care because you are delighted. That makes perfect sense. Honestly "a peer reviewed objective website" owner who calls my statements into question yet says he doesn't know if they are even equal (yet factually a sonic downgrade) is really a strange change-up. I simply cannot follow.

I can see why it would upset you if I said you didn't want to be tested using an ABX blind test. Cut to the chase. It is true. NO REVIEWER has agreed to it and we both know why. As I said, you were smart to decline no matter if you wrote the book on DBT theory. I am not going to push you to be a jerk. You don't have to accommodate. Therefore you shouldn't. But you want my technique approach on paper. I told you. They make the QSC ABX box that literally does all of the method and testing for you. What the heck is THAT going to prove other than going round and around? So when you came after me, I pointed out some flaws in your logic. I took it personal and obviously you have too.

I am not trying to take anything away from you. But when you question my experience and brain power and say I lack credibility and ethics, I shot back at an easy target. One by one I offered you information: I am a dealer, I am technical, I own a ABX box, I can back up my words with a visit, etc. Instead, you still attack.

People are sitting back and eating popcorn watching us behave like children. Let's be smart. Let's agree to disagree. I tried exiting on a positve note before so I will summarize below with some more complements. I'll try again. Your website is incredibly successful because you add value and you work your butt off. Your site really is looking out for snake oil and obvious flaws in the industry that we belong to. You have a great site here Gene. You add value. You don't always get it right nor do I. You are looked up to by many in this industry and do a lot better job than most sites or publications. There is no reason that you have to question my point of view and my approach. I propose we both park our well deserved egos.

Let's end it on that note and I wish you the very best in your endeavors.

I've stated MANY times that my comparison was between the preamp out of the PM-11S3 vs the Denon AVP. The 8801 was never in my comparison. However the PM-11S3 is allegedly the best preamp Marantz makes right now. So it's reasonable to conclude the HDAM in the 8801 is similar to the 11S3 especially since the 8801 is NOT a fully differential design from input to output. The balanced outs of the 8801 are simply done with phase splitter not differential discrete circuitry. In contrast the AVP is a fully differential design for EVERY stage from input to output. A much different, more complex, and technically superior circuit design. The best audio designs are ALWAYS differential. Sorry you don't understand this but that is the case in audio and especially the telcom world.

I am fully capable of running my own blind test here without your assistance. If I ever have the time/desire to run one between the AVP and 8801 I will. However, in all likelihood I will just wait for the next Marantz processor to run such a test and I will invite a listening panel as well.

Again anyone who claims to hear differences in USB/HDMI cables IMO has an uphill battle towards gaining credibility.

But again no hard feelings. It's nice to see dealers participate on our forum. It's nice that there are still dealers around that people can visit and demo equipment from.

 

[jinjuku]

I've stated MANY times that my comparison was between the preamp out of the PM-11S3 vs the Denon AVP. The 8801 was never in my comparison. However the PM-11S3 is allegedly the best preamp Marantz makes right now. So it's reasonable to conclude the HDAM in the 8801 is similar to the 11S3 especially since the 8801 is NOT a fully differential design from input to output. The balanced outs of the 8801 are simply done with phase splitter not differential discrete circuitry. In contrast the AVP is a fully differential design for EVERY stage from input to output. A much different, more complex, and technically superior circuit design. The best audio designs are ALWAYS differential. Sorry you don't understand this but that is the case in audio and especially the telcom world.

You hit that on the head. Not sure how you pointing out the what is considered the best sounding analog output that Marantz has to offer, the PM 11S3, and extrapolating it down to the 8801 was lost.

 

[PENG]

An Audio Research PREAMP that I am very sure measures worse, is the poster-child of "holographics" to my ear. I have not personally heard everything in the market. So I cannot say with certainly if there is a better preamp. But the AR sounds incredible to me ear (only speaking about their preamps). No. I am not a dealer on Audio Research dealer. I would if I could but I am boxed out of the line here in MN.

It is still my goal to acquire a used AR preamp, has to be a used one because the new ones would be too pricey for me. Which model would you recommend? It will likely replace my 32 years old Marantz SC-7 so I can use the SC-7 for the spare bed room.

Now I think you mentioned that you think the X4000 (in your system) should be equal. If so, buy one. Get rid of your AVP and put some $$'s in your pocket. If you don't hear it a benifit in your room, you should not spend the money on an AVP or even a 8801.

Sorry sir, it is my turn to tell you to read people's post. I never mentioned I had a X4000. I have the 8801, but also have the old Denon 3805, 1912 and 4308. And I said when I went from 3805 to 4308 to AV7005, each time I believe I heard better HT sound but no apparent improvements in pure direct. There may be some subtly audible improvements but I know I wouln't pass even a single blind test.

The Denon and Marantz products were very different different. We are talking about a AVP product designed in 2008. Can we agree that even the same team and 5 years of experience will result in (hopefully) advancements (subjective SQ and VQ)?

Yes I can agree there bound to be advancements in processed sound, that's why each time I heard improved HT sound but no I do not think there are audible advancement in pure direct sound. As for VQ, yes I can agree but I don't agree the 8801 would be better than that of the AVP. You must know the AVP, assign from superior circuity (in theory, to you anyway), it has the flag ship HQV Realta video processor by Silicon Optix. No latest features I guess but top notch video quality I hope..

People can call me names and assume I am inexperienced. But there is a reason why I don't ever bother looking at measurements (and tying into my speaker analogy), I have been disappointed too many times.

I don't recall anyone calling you names, I might have "Sir" you a couple of times, that's about it.

 

[PENG]

Most of the people who claim to experts on this topic of listening in the blind have not done squat. Your forum is full of them. The 3 hours of research in the topic has been parroted in every forum across the globe and tidbits have been regurgitated time and time again until it has become "fact". Your post^^ showed how too many parroted tidbits so I know you haven't done much on the topic. So ambiguity is key.

Full of them? Who claimed to be experts on listening in the blind? At the most people on this thread people asked you how you did your blind listening, that does not mean they claim to be expert. There may have been people saying things like you have to match volume to within X dB, ability to switch quickly etc., but as you are alluding to, those basic stuff are Googleable/Bingable within minutes, let alone 3 hours of research and could well be "parroted" from forums to forums and we should all know those were not necessarily expert talks. Well I guess in a sense we are in sort of in agreement on this but it would have been better if we can all use nicer tones.

 

[jinjuku]

I'm an audio enthusiast, not an audiophile. I actually enjoy music versus loving my set-up one day and hating it the next.

That said, my main listening system uses a set of Magico's. As you know, hardcore "audiophiles" use USB cables (and yes, people "hear" differences in that cable). An HDMI cable is (more or less) a bunch of USB cables.

I'll give you this: It's a much better moderated position than most. You said differences. It would be interesting to take a Blue Jeans $20 HDMI and A/B against the wavelink. Are just asserting Audio Quality? Or including Video Quality?

 

[AV_Nut]

You hit that on the head. Not sure how you pointing out the what is considered the best sounding analog output that Marantz has to offer, the PM 11S3, and extrapolating it down to the 8801 was lost.

The PM11S3 is an integrated amplifier. You won't see any HDMI boards as well as other boards/features. Obvously the layout is also different (and I am not talking about the preamp section). All things being equal, I prefer to have a product without amplifiers internal. No. I am not saying it is going to have an impact. But to me at least, their is no reason to take a leap. I simply give someone the 8801 and have them compare.

All of my customers as well as myself compared the prepro via HDMI with the Marantz pseudo "balanced" connections into their differential balanced amplifier inputs. Others may feel comfortable with using an integrated for their comparison. I personally don't. I say, compare the real-deal or punt. That doesn't mean that they won't correlate. But I am not going to take that leap myself and I don't think I am alone. Let me stress it one more time: That doesn't mean that they won't correlate.

So as for the comparison, we can agree to disagree because it is just too easy to do the comparison correctly.