Why Denon 4311 over X4000?

[herbu]

I'm considering an upgrade of my Yamaha RXV671 receiver. Thought the top candidate was a Denon X4000, but saw a comment here that if you could find for roughly the same price, a better choice would be Denon 4311 "for sure". Why?

I'll be driving 4 Aperion Grand Towers, (fronts and sides), Aperion Grand Center, small KEF rears, 1 (for now) Rythmik FV15HP sub, and 1 KEF 10" sub.

I followed advice here on earlier upgrade, and focused more on speakers than the receiver. I was REAL happy, but audiophile reviews AND the folks at Aperion tell me there will be a huge difference with a different/better receiver. It's been haunting me, and now I'm ready to fork out $1.2-1.5k to find out.

Use is mainly TV/Movies... maybe 20% music.

If the 4311 really is the better choice, any thoughts about an authorized dealer, (I want the warranty), that might be talked into my price range now?

BTW, I do read the forum. I saw where DENG said, "The 4000 has newer features such as 4K and Instapreview but the 4311 has 11.2 processing, 7.1 analog in, 9 channel of amps vs 7 for the 4000, 4 ohm rated, and plays HDCD for people who owns them."

That was REALLY helpful!!! But as I am a simple guy, do 7.1 (or 7.2), and just HDMI, I don't think I'll use any of the things he mentioned. Posted here to see if there is anything else I'm missing.

Thanks!

 

[PENG]

I'm considering an upgrade of my Yamaha RXV671 receiver. Thought the top candidate was a Denon X4000, but saw a comment here that if you could find for roughly the same price, a better choice would be Denon 4311 "for sure". Why?

I'll be driving 4 Aperion Grand Towers, (fronts and sides), Aperion Grand Center, small KEF rears, 1 (for now) Rythmik FV15HP sub, and 1 KEF 10" sub.

I followed advice here on earlier upgrade, and focused more on speakers than the receiver. I was REAL happy, but audiophile reviews AND the folks at Aperion tell me there will be a huge difference with a different/better receiver. It's been haunting me, and now I'm ready to fork out $1.2-1.5k to find out.

Use is mainly TV/Movies... maybe 20% music.

If the 4311 really is the better choice, any thoughts about an authorized dealer, (I want the warranty), that might be talked into my price range now?

BTW, I do read the forum. I saw where DENG said, "The 4000 has newer features such as 4K and Instapreview but the 4311 has 11.2 processing, 7.1 analog in, 9 channel of amps vs 7 for the 4000, 4 ohm rated, and plays HDCD for people who owns them."

That was REALLY helpful!!! But as I am a simple guy, do 7.1 (or 7.2), and just HDMI, I don't think I'll use any of the things he mentioned. Posted here to see if there is anything else I'm missing.

Thanks!

If you don't use any of those features you main benefit to have the 4311 is its more robust power supply and amp section. Instead of paying for features you won't use, you may want to consider a lower cost unit and buy a 5 channel power amp to drive the Grand center and the 4 Grand towers. The AVR can easily power your small KEF for the rear channel.

 

[JonnyFive23517]

If you could get the X4000 + a 5 channel power amp for approximately the same price as the 4311, then it may be time to go that route. This will open you up to independent upgrades in the future. For now you can power two rear channels off the receiver. They both have XT32 and dual sub EQ, which I think are some of their best features.

 

[herbu]

If you could get the X4000 + a 5 channel power amp for approximately the same price as the 4311, then it may be time to go that route.

You know, the guy at Aperion said the same thing. Again, I'm wondering "why?".

The X4000 is published to have 120w/channel @ 8ohms. The 6ohm Grand Towers are published to run w/ 20 to 300w.
I've read a number of comments here about the subjectivity of manufacturer ratings, and understand. But it seems anywhere in the 100-150w range would be OK.

Unless I'm trying to entertain the neighborhood, what would be the benefit of a separate amp along w/ the X4000? At normal listening levels, even for movies that go BOOM, would the difference really be noticeable?

Thanks!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

They both have XT32 and dual sub EQ, which I think are some of their best features.

+1. These two will make bulk of the difference in reproduction, not the raw power.
If you are interested in these features you could consider X4000 avr by it self. Adding external amp will always be an option later on.

Now, if you do have very large space and you do like higher volume levels then by all means adding amp should help

 

[herbu]

Thanks, guys. That's exactly what I wanted to know!

After thinking about it, in my simple country boy way, I came up with this analogy:
The Grand Towers are like a hotrod. The receiver is the fuel.
My old Yamaha was like moonshine. It would run, but that's about it. The new Denon X4000 is like regular unleaded. It'll do a LOT better than the moonshine, but still won't utilize the car's maximum potential. A separate amp w/ 250-300w per channel would be like 96 octane. It would get every possible bit of performance out of the car.

Now, if my normal use is running errands around town, with just an occasional pump on the pedal, the regular unleaded will be fine. But if I go to the dragstrip on Saturday night, I should fill er up with hi-test.

Is that about right?

Thanks again for all ya'lls help!!! The X4000 and 2 more Grand Towers are on their way!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks, guys. That's exactly what I wanted to know!

After thinking about it, in my simple country boy way, I came up with this analogy:
The Grand Towers are like a hotrod. The receiver is the fuel.
My old Yamaha was like moonshine. It would run, but that's about it. The new Denon X4000 is like regular unleaded. It'll do a LOT better than the moonshine, but still won't utilize the car's maximum potential. A separate amp w/ 250-300w per channel would be like 96 octane. It would get every possible bit of performance out of the car.

Now, if my normal use is running errands around town, with just an occasional pump on the pedal, the regular unleaded will be fine. But if I go to the dragstrip on Saturday night, I should fill er up with hi-test.

Is that about right?

Thanks again for all ya'lls help!!! The X4000 and 2 more Grand Towers are on their way!

Your yamaha is more like regular 87, x4000 is silver 91 and 4311 is more of premium 93.

Now an AVR + Emotiva XPA-3 is like running on rocketfuel

 

[JonnyFive23517]

The X4000 is published to have 120w/channel @ 8ohms. The 6ohm Grand Towers are published to run w/ 20 to 300w.
I've read a number of comments here about the subjectivity of manufacturer ratings, and understand. But it seems anywhere in the 100-150w range would be OK.

Unless I'm trying to entertain the neighborhood, what would be the benefit of a separate amp along w/ the X4000? At normal listening levels, even for movies that go BOOM, would the difference really be noticeable?

Thanks!

I know the 4311 has a pretty beefy power section, I don't know about the x4000. But the published specs are with just 2 channels driven, not 5 or 7. Anybody know where to find the bench test on the 4311?

Also, you pave the way for independent upgrades in the future. What if the next receiver you want has a weak power amp section? With an independent power amp (that will probably long outlast MANY receiver upgrades), you can consider only the future features you want and ignore the power section completely. OR go to a dedicated preamp.

 

[cpp]

I've got two 4311's one in our normal TV room and one handling HT duties in the HT room... I can't be happier.

 

[herbu]

Doggone you guys! What redblooded American boy, retired w/ disposable assets, could be satisfied w/ 91 Silver when Rocket Fuel is available?!?

I've never used a separate amp. See stuff I don't know about, (like balanced and unbalanced). Also see the darn thing, (XPA-5), weighs 70 pounds... that means new furniture. I swear I'm gonna block this site/forum from my browser so I can never see it again... as soon as I learn more about this rocket fuel.

Thanks!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Doggone you guys! What redblooded American boy, retired w/ disposable assets, could be satisfied w/ 91 Silver when Rocket Fuel is available?!?

I've never used a separate amp. See stuff I don't know about, (like balanced and unbalanced). Also see the darn thing, (XPA-5), weighs 70 pounds... that means new furniture. I swear I'm gonna block this site/forum from my browser so I can never see it again... as soon as I learn more about this rocket fuel.

Thanks!

Doesn't have to be xpa-5, xpa-3 is fine. Since most of high volume movie content is typically in front 3 speakers. AVR could power all the surrounds without a problem.

 

[sgtjim]

Very happy with my X4000 XPA-5 combination with my B&W's. More channels would be nice if I could make them fit and not have wires running all over the floor.

 

[Ponzio]

Doggone you guys! What redblooded American boy, retired w/ disposable assets, could be satisfied w/ 91 Silver when Rocket Fuel is available?!?

I've never used a separate amp. See stuff I don't know about, (like balanced and unbalanced). Also see the darn thing, (XPA-5), weighs 70 pounds... that means new furniture. I swear I'm gonna block this site/forum from my browser so I can never see it again... as soon as I learn more about this rocket fuel.

Thanks!

Run! ... run!! ... run away while you can.

I'm in the same boat, regarding retirement, and I had plans to upgrade some stuff here and there. I came to the site with a simple question about a speaker upgrade and the next thing you know I'm spending money left and right like a newly minted Powerball winner. My wife is a bit perturbed, my friends are laughing their asses watching my "thrifty" (read: cheap) butt throw money around and my kids have already decided which pieces they want when I move on to the choir eternal. But my ears and mind are happy as clams, so who cares?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Electronics Expo has a Denon 3313 demo (full warranty) for $491. Call them on the phone and ask for free shipping.

For a simple guy, right?

For real simple, I wouldn't even get an external amp.

 

[Ponzio]

Electronics Expo has a Denon 3313 demo (full warranty) for $491. Call them on the phone and ask for free shipping.

For a simple guy, right?

For real simple, I wouldn't even get an external amp.

That's just cruel.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's just cruel.

Fine. Then I would call Electronic Expo and beg for a great price on the X4000.

I just think the 3313 for $491 would be great enough for most of us, myself included. No, really.

 

[Ponzio]

See 'herbu', this is how they suck you in.

Everything sounds so reasonable and affordable. So you skip on out to your local shop and the friendly salesman let's you hear the product you came in for and your like "wow great, this sounds good". And that's when that ever friendly salesman springs the trap, "uh, for a couple hundred more you can buy this model" At that point you should just buy what you came in for and run out but no, you're intrigued. What harm can it do? Yeah, let me hear it. Your ears tell the brain, if you don't buy the better & more expensive product, I will haunt you for the rest of your life. And God forbid you get a salesman with no scruples, "hey before you go, I gotta play their top of the line model for you, you'll love it". Now your ears & BRAIN are conspiring against you. It's just a black hole of bliss; very similar to opium addicts.

I'm outta here to take care of some biz. Watch yourself 'herbu'.

 

[PENG]

Anybody know where to find the bench test on the 4311?

Try this:

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDMQFjAB&url=http://www.hifiklubben.com/files/Test/Denon/DENAVR4311_hcc_201105.pdf&ei=1DNGUqLODcviyAH8vYCwDQ&usg=AFQjCNEJr8zPFQEAnk4X7iQv52tKJH5gcQ

In case the link won't work for you, the U.K. Home Cinema Choice lab test results were as follow:

2 channel 8 ohms at 0.5% THD: 175W

5 channel 8 ohms at 0.5% THD: 120W

In the untainted watts Fidelity firewall test, 184W 2 channel into 8 ohms, 0.05% THD, it tops the Onkyo TX-NR5008 (a 50 pounder), the Pioneer SC-LX83 and the Yamaha RX-V3067.

 

[PENG]

See 'herbu', this is how they suck you in.

Everything sounds so reasonable and affordable. So you skip on out to your local shop and the friendly salesman let's you hear the product you came in for and your like "wow great, this sounds good". And that's when that ever friendly salesman springs the trap, "uh, for a couple hundred more you can buy this model" At that point you should just buy what you came in for and run out but no, you're intrigued. What harm can it do? Yeah, let me hear it. Your ears tell the brain, if you don't buy the better & more expensive product, I will haunt you for the rest of your life. And God forbid you get a salesman with no scruples, "hey before you go, I gotta play their top of the line model for you, you'll love it". Now your ears & BRAIN are conspiring against you. It's just a black hole of bliss; very similar to opium addicts.

I'm outta here to take care of some biz. Watch yourself 'herbu'.

I think most friendly salesman received training in the effects of Placebo and how to implement it on their potential victims. Their job is to maximum profit margin, that means to make you buy the more expensive items regardless.

 

[ARES24]

I think most friendly salesman received training in the effects of Placebo and how to implement it on their potential victims. Their job is to maximum profit margin, that means to make you buy the more expensive items regardless.

I am still unconvinced that this is entirely bad....