2ch rig suggestions.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yep, main reason I lean toward that option. Those are new units on classic audio correct?

The ATP6700 is brand new. I think the AT1202 is technically "B stock", but they do come with the same brand new 7 yr warranty and a free 12V trigger cable.

I would ask them to kindly remove that rack-mount thingy on the sides of the AT1202, though.

 

[lizard84]

So, having said all that, what would you guys say the best path is? Cheaper AVR with 4ohm capability? Higher end ATI setup for 2ch only? USB DAC or soundcard/DAC and amp?

Also consider a "previously enjoyed" mid level Yamaha AVR that has pre outs, fine listening in 2 ch or direct mode, decent Dac's, gives you the option of of adding an a the stand alone amp of your choice right away or later, a good number of preamps with HT bypass if you want record out capability and turntable inputs.

Bottom line, whatever you decide, having a AVR with pre outs, no matter the brand gives you the options, For equipment to be named later, never a bad thing!

 

[fmw]

If your computer is the source I would dump the pre-pro and just get a sound card and go straight to Amp.

Take a look at the Yamaha PS2500:

View attachment 11724

That is certainly familiar looking. I have a PS3500. It is a brute. 33 lbs of audio power. It has specs as good as any audiophile amplifier and has no problem at all pumping out 450 distortion free watts per channel into my 4 ohm pro audio speakers. It is bridgeable and comfy with a two ohm load. However, I use it to power some big pro audio speakers for filling an auditorium with the sounds of one of my digital pianos. I've never used it in home audio. I can't imagine having a room big enough to need one in a home.

 

[KEW]

How about a solid 2-channel receiver with a pair of AKM PCM DAC's:
Harman Kardon - Beautiful Sound
Here is the full review from Audioholics:
harman/kardon HK 3490 Introduction | Audioholics
Amazon has it for about $360
(also available refurbished direct from Harman Kardon via the Harman Store on Ebay for $300:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Harman-Kardon-HK-3490-Z-2-x-120W-per-channel-Stereo-Receiver-/151017641556?pt=US_Stereo_Receivers&hash=item23295a5654)

 

[panteragstk]

How about a solid 2-channel receiver with a pair of AKM PCM DAC's:
Harman Kardon - Beautiful Sound
Here is the full review from Audioholics:
harman/kardon HK 3490 Introduction | Audioholics
Amazon has it for about $360
(also available refurbished direct from Harman Kardon via the Harman Store on Ebay for $300:
Harman Kardon HK 3490 Z 2 x 120W per Channel Stereo Receiver 028292506451 | eBay)

Thanks, I'll read the review. It looks like this would work nicely for what I'm looking for. Nice to have lots of options.

Only thing missing is RS232. It isn't a deal breaker, but I'd rather have it for simplicity for WAF.

 

[panteragstk]

I looked at the new Marantz slim receivers and they look pretty nice for the money. If the wattage wasn't enough they have the 2ch out so I could use an external amp. They have pretty much every feature I could want, but I wonder if the DAC (analog devices) are as good as the HD 3490? Or does that even matter?

EDIT: Just wanted to say that I know that different DAC's can sound different from one another, but I was under the impression that most in this price range should (would?) be indistinguishable from one another.

It's like when you read that high end brand A has twin 32bit floating point processors compared to brand B that only has one. Audible difference?

 

[fmw]

Not in my experience. Our bias controlled tests included everything from a Sony Walkman to a $4000 audiophile DAC. In a properly administered level matched, double blind test, DAC's had no effect at all on sonics. They all did a competent job of handling the conversion. Things may have changed in the last 10 years but I seriously doubt it. Conversion isn't rocket science and it isn't mystical. It is very straightforward.

 

[panteragstk]

Not in my experience. Our bias controlled tests included everything from a Sony Walkman to a $4000 audiophile DAC. In a properly administered level matched, double blind test, DAC's had no effect at all on sonics. They all did a competent job of handling the conversion. Things may have changed in the last 10 years but I seriously doubt it. Conversion isn't rocket science and it isn't mystical. It is very straightforward.

Thanks for that. I tend to agree, but there is one thing that has me wondering. ALL of my recording engineer buddies talk about DAC's like they make all the difference in the world when it comes to monitoring and mixing. I've heard differences myself, but in the uncontrolled environment pure bias could be to blame. Could any of us or them tell a difference in a blind test? Don't know, but for all of these companies to sell DAC's in so many different price ranges it's hard to think there isn't something to them.

Even the Audioholics review of the HK 3490 the DAC is specifically mentioned. Why if it makes no difference? I'm starting to think this is just like the "do different amps sound different" thread.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...I'm starting to think this is just like the "do different amps sound different" thread.

It is like that. Same with preamps.

Some people think they can hear the difference, and some people don't think so.

 

[ski2xblack]

Even the Audioholics review of the HK 3490 the DAC is specifically mentioned. Why if it makes no difference? I'm starting to think this is just like the "do different amps sound different" thread.

They were mentioned because DACs are a rarity in two channel receivers, not because the DACs are anything particularly special.

 

[panteragstk]

It is like that. Same with preamps.

Some people think they can hear the difference, and some people don't think so.

Figured as much. My question to you is what would I gain with the ATI setup you proposed over the HK receiver or the Marantz I mentioned (other than separates, I can get an external amp with either receiver as well)?

They were mentioned because DACs are a rarity in two channel receivers, not because the DACs are anything particularly special.

Thanks, that had not occurred to me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Figured as much. My question to you is what would I gain with the ATI setup you proposed over the HK receiver or the Marantz I mentioned (other than separates, I can get an external amp with either receiver as well)?

Absolutely nothing in terms of SQ.

I believe a receiver (AVR or Stereo Receiver) will sound every bit as great. Just use Direct or Pure Direct mode.

 

[panteragstk]

Absolutely nothing in terms of SQ.

I believe a receiver (AVR or Stereo Receiver) will sound every bit as great. Just use Direct or Pure Direct mode.

Well then. Wasn't really expecting that response. I've got some thinking to do now.

I really appreciate everyone's input.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well then. Wasn't really expecting that response. I've got some thinking to do now.

I really appreciate everyone's input.

There's a lot that some of us go through when making buying decisions.

SQ is of utmost importance, but other factors are also crucial because we have to live with our decision everyday.

Some guys feel they must have analog 2.0Ch stereo system; in which case the ATI works great.

But if SQ is the ONLY factor, then it makes no difference to me if the system is AVR, Stereo receiver, or separates like ATI...

Well almost. Finding the "right" combination of speakers + subs + AVR + setup is another matter.

 

[panteragstk]

There's a lot that some of us go through when making buying decisions.

SQ is of utmost importance, but other factors are also crucial because we have to live with our decision everyday.

Some guys feel they must have analog 2.0Ch stereo system; in which case the ATI works great.

But if SQ is the ONLY factor, then it makes no difference to me if the system is AVR, Stereo receiver, or separates like ATI...

Well almost. Finding the "right" combination of speakers + subs + AVR + setup is another matter.

Sure is. Your thread abut pure direct and the ability to run a sub is what's got me looking at the Marantz. Plus, it has all the newest goodies. I don't know if I'll be able to use a sub in this setup (might not have room), but I don't want to limit myself if it turns out I will have a place for a sub.

 

[PENG]

Absolutely nothing in terms of SQ.

I believe a receiver (AVR or Stereo Receiver) will sound every bit as great. Just use Direct or Pure Direct mode.

You know I feel almost the same, but try telling that to people who have been read reviews over at Stereophile, Absolute Sound etc., that are full of what 3dB referred to as "fluff" words about how Bryston sounds clicnical and slightly forward, Pass lab sounds lay back blablabla, let along a 3312 vs ATI1807........ I was once a victim for some years so I understand quite well how many people still believe what they believe.

 

[PENG]

Well then. Wasn't really expecting that response. I've got some thinking to do now.

I really appreciate everyone's input.

The guy owns enough high end amps and speakers, I trust he knows what he's talking about. For SQ, first priorities are the media source and speakers, then go after the power you need.

 

[panteragstk]

The guy owns enough high end amps and speakers, I trust he knows what he's talking about. For SQ, first priorities are the media source and speakers, then go after the power you need.

That's the plan. I hope the ER18's are what I'm looking for in a speaker. If not, building stuff is fun. I do trust him, experience is key for me on this forum, and when someone has tried as many different things as he has, he has to have learned something. Plus, anyone willing to give me no BS advice is worth listening to.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Sure is. Your thread abut pure direct and the ability to run a sub is what's got me looking at the Marantz. Plus, it has all the newest goodies. I don't know if I'll be able to use a sub in this setup (might not have room), but I don't want to limit myself if it turns out I will have a place for a sub.

Precisely. Never LIMIT your system. That's why I believe in using the AVR for music even in 2.0, instead of a stereo receiver or analog preamp.

The AVR is unequivocally backward compatible w/ a 2Ch analog stereo preamp!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You know I feel almost the same, but try telling that to people who have been read reviews over at Stereophile, Absolute Sound etc., that are full of what 3dB referred to as "fluff" words about how Bryston sounds clicnical and slightly forward, Pass lab sounds lay back blablabla, let along a 3312 vs ATI1807........ I was once a victim for some years so I understand quite well how many people still believe what they believe.

I used to believe in cables and interconnects! I had Kimber, Audioquest, Vampire Wire, etc. And, of course, I used to believe that all amps sounded differently also. I used to believe all the words of Stereophile, HTM, Soundstage, etc.

But I find the words from The Audio Critic to be most true: amps, preamps, wires, DAC, & CD players usually don't sound very differently; while speakers and digital processors do sound differently.

Processors are pretty much like computers. Any given firmware or program could significantly change the sound.

Oh, wait, that sounds like I am contradicting myself!

The key here is that some processors can sound differently than other processors even when they are very similar! Why? Because of certain firmware along the journey?

I can tell you MY AVR-5308 bass implementation is different than MY AVP-A1HD in Direct/ Pure Direct 2.2 mode, but they sound the same in 2.0 PD/ Direct mode or DTS & DD 5.1 mode!

There is no way in heck I am ever updating the firmware in my AVR-5308!

But I will update the firmware in my AVP-A1HD when new ones come out.

BTW, the "Inception" movie soundtrack played on my "second system" (AVR-5308+Orion+RBH) is kicking my a$$ as I type! It totally rocks on my primary system (AVP-A1+Funk+Salon2/802D2/201/2), but it is slamming my a$$ like a freight train from hell when played back on my second system in Pure Direct 2.2 mode!