2ch rig suggestions.

[fmw]

AcuDef, I spent some time today recalibrating my sound system. The reason I know I got i right is that stereo music sounds about the same in pure direct as it does in THX Cinema mode. All TXH does is add a few more speakers. To make a long story short, processors should sound about the same also. Otherwise they aren't calibrated correctly.

 

[PENG]

But I find the words from The Audio Critic to be most true: amps, preamps, wires, DAC, & CD players usually don't sound very differently; while speakers and digital processors do sound differently.

I find Soudstage actually not quite as bad as the others, they still use fluff words but not too excessively for my taste at least, and when they review speakers they typically provide links to the NRC lab measurements. The fact that they tend to rate Focal, KEF and Bryston products high surely help, now I am kidding..

Processors are pretty much like computers. Any given firmware or program could significantly change the sound.

Oh, wait, that sounds like I am contradicting myself!

I know you are big on pure direct, same here, direct and pure direct are our best friends and must have features.

BTW, the "Inception" movie soundtrack played on my "second system" (AVR-5308+Orion+RBH) is kicking my a$$ as I type! It totally rocks on my primary system (AVP-A1+Funk+Salon2/802D2/201/2), but it is slamming my a$$ like a freight train from hell when played back on my second system in Pure Direct 2.2 mode!

Thanks for the tips, but unlike you, I like to collect things, so I have to wait until price drops to not more than $7.99. It is not on Netflix Canada yet but even if it is, Netflix's DD plus does not sound all that good.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

AcuDef, I spent some time today recalibrating my sound system. The reason I know I got i right is that stereo music sounds about the same in pure direct as it does in THX Cinema mode. All TXH does is add a few more speakers. To make a long story short, processors should sound about the same also. Otherwise they aren't calibrated correctly.

Oh, so you are challenging me to a debate?

It is sooooooo on !

Okay, here is my rebuttal or defense (clears throat ).

You think you know more than Peter Aczel & the experienced audiophiles who wrote and reviewed for The Audio Critic as well as many other audiophiles who believe that processors can sound differently?

And based on your singular experience with your one AVR and speaker system, you think you must be right and all who believe that processors can sound differently must be wrong?

Somehow you have calibrated your system correctly and others have calibrated incorrectly?

I'm not going to disagree with The Audio Critic on this, especially based on my own experience. And I'm pretty certain I have calibrated my system correctly also.

THX Cinema Mode just adds a few more speakers? THX Cinema is a DSP mode which uses post processing of the original signal. Most of us will disagree that any post processing of the original signal will NOT be as clean and distortion-free as Direct mode or Stereo mode Bypassing of all DSP like THX Cinema Mode.

I say that if you cannot tell the difference between a DSP mode like THX Cinema vs Pure Direct than something is wrong your system or you have NOT calibrated your system correctly.

That is my rebuttal.

 

[brianedm]

I find Soudstage actually not quite as bad as the others, they still use fluff words but not too excessively for my taste at least, and when they review speakers they typically provide links to the NRC lab measurements. The fact that they tend to rate Focal, KEF and Bryston products high surely help, now I am kidding..




I know you are big on pure direct, same here, direct and pure direct are our best friends and must have features.



Thanks for the tips, but unlike you, I like to collect things, so I have to wait until price drops to not more than $7.99. It is not on Netflix Canada yet but even if it is, Netflix's DD plus does not sound all that good.

I say good day, sir. GOOD DAY!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...stereo music sounds about the same in pure direct as it does in THX Cinema mode...

I tried the Home THX Cinema DSP mode. The sound seems more compressed - not as crystal clear as Pure Direct at all! It feels like Tone Control or RC is used.

I cannot believe your speakers and system aren't showing the difference! What AVR do you have?

 

[fmw]

My receiver is a Pioneer VSX-92 - a high end Elite model from a few years ago. The stereo speaker pair are Epos M15 - very accurate. I didn't say you can't make a system sound different through the processor. Obviously you can. My comment was that, if you have it calibrated properly, a stereo source such as a CD should sound about the same in a surround mode as it does in pure direct stereo. Obviously, the processor will add additional speakers and that will change the ambience. But the mains should sound about the same. When I calibrate the sound system my goal is to get the mains sounding the same in both pure direct and my most commonly used surround mode which is called THX Cinema on my receiver. When people get radically different sounds in these two modes from the stereo pair, my opinion is that the calibration wasn't well done.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

My receiver is a Pioneer VSX-92 - a high end Elite model from a few years ago. The stereo speaker pair are Epos M15 - very accurate. I didn't say you can't make a system sound different through the processor. Obviously you can. My comment was that, if you have it calibrated properly, a stereo source such as a CD should sound about the same in a surround mode as it does in pure direct stereo. Obviously, the processor will add additional speakers and that will change the ambience. But the mains should sound about the same. When I calibrate the sound system my goal is to get the mains sounding the same in both pure direct and my most commonly used surround mode which is called THX Cinema on my receiver. When people get radically different sounds in these two modes from the stereo pair, my opinion is that the calibration wasn't well done.

My processors are the $7500 Denon AVP-A1HDCI & $5500 AVR-5308CI, which are very high-end, and my speakers are the Revel Salon2, Linkwitz Orion3, KEF Reference 201/2, & TAD 2201, which are very accurate speakers.

Your experience is your own.

Why would you assume everyone will have the same exact experience as you with their Denon's, Marantz's, Yamaha's, HK's, Onkyo's, etc?

Why would you assume that people must have their systems calibrated IMPROPERLY just because they don't experience the same thing as your "high-end AVR from a FEW YEARS AGO" and "accurate speakers"?

I bet most people here believe that Pure Direct/ Direct/ Stereo DSP/EQ-BYPASSED will sound differently than any DSP modes including the THX Cinema DSP.

 

[fmw]

Then we disagree. If your stereo pair sounds obviously different between the two modes, then I think you have some tweaking to do. You shouldn't allow a processor to change the way music sounds on your system. Again, I'm not suggesting processors don't alter sonics. I'm suggesting that you should be able to hear music about the same from the main pair whether the processor is engaged or not. The processor should be calibrated to do that. If you disagree then we disagree. Obviously we can both set them up however we like.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Then we disagree. If your stereo pair sounds obviously different between the two modes, then I think you have some tweaking to do. You shouldn't allow a processor to change the way music sounds on your system. Again, I'm not suggesting processors don't alter sonics. I'm suggesting that you should be able to hear music about the same from the main pair whether the processor is engaged or not. The processor should be calibrated to do that. If you disagree then we disagree. Obviously we can both set them up however we like.

Obviously we disagree because I think either you need to tweak your system properly so that Pure Direct mode Sounds better than any DSP modes like it should or your AVR & speakers (or room acoustic & placement) just aren't good enough to discern the difference.

 

[panteragstk]

Hmmm, interesting debate. I have to ask, when you are saying "properly calibrated" what specifically are you referring to? When I think calibrating setting proper distance, crossover, and level matching are the main things I think of. What additionally would you guys be referring to?

 

[slipperybidness]

My receiver is a Pioneer VSX-92 - a high end Elite model from a few years ago. The stereo speaker pair are Epos M15 - very accurate. I didn't say you can't make a system sound different through the processor. Obviously you can. My comment was that, if you have it calibrated properly, a stereo source such as a CD should sound about the same in a surround mode as it does in pure direct stereo. Obviously, the processor will add additional speakers and that will change the ambience. But the mains should sound about the same. When I calibrate the sound system my goal is to get the mains sounding the same in both pure direct and my most commonly used surround mode which is called THX Cinema on my receiver. When people get radically different sounds in these two modes from the stereo pair, my opinion is that the calibration wasn't well done.

My guess is that your room already plays nice with your equipment, so the calibration didn't do much to the EQ curves.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hmmm, interesting debate. I have to ask, when you are saying "properly calibrated" what specifically are you referring to? When I think calibrating setting proper distance, crossover, and level matching are the main things I think of. What additionally would you guys be referring to?

The most important thing is speakers & subwoofer channel level match. I don't even trust Audyssey to do this for me. I use a digital SPL meter.

And other things you listed - Speaker Config (Small vs Large), Distance, Crossover, Subwoofer setting, Audio 2Ch/Direct setting. Not exactly rocket science or difficult for most of us to screw up and do it improperly.

 

[fmw]

My guess is that your room already plays nice with your equipment, so the calibration didn't do much to the EQ curves.

It did a little. Clearing up the eq on the mains is one of the things I had to tweak. But, yes, my family room has decent acoustics.

 

[panteragstk]

The most important thing is speakers & subwoofer channel level match. I don't even trust Audyssey to do this for me. I use a digital SPL meter.

And other things you listed - Speaker Config (Small vs Large), Distance, Crossover, Subwoofer setting, Audio 2Ch/Direct setting. Not exactly rocket science or difficult for most of us to screw up and do it improperly.

I honestly don't trust anything "automatic". I always verify with the trusty SPL meter. That's how I learned to level match anyway. Auto room correction wasn't a thing in receivers when I started this hobby (well, at least REALLY uncommon in my price range).

 

[fmw]

Hmmm, interesting debate. I have to ask, when you are saying "properly calibrated" what specifically are you referring to? When I think calibrating setting proper distance, crossover, and level matching are the main things I think of. What additionally would you guys be referring to?

As AcuDef explains, there are many factors. I'm an old school audiophile who was finally cured of the disease. My belief is that speakers and room acoustics are everything and I spend quite a bit of time working on the room acoustics. My belief is that you should have things right for music listening without any processing. The processing can handle things like distance, level matching, reverb, sub Xover etc etc. When you are done, however, the main pair should play music as well as it does in pure direct. Processing shouldn't make it play better or even meaningfully differently. That is my belief. I listen to music a lot on my home theater so I have that part of it pretty well handled without any processing. So does AcuDef. Remember he said his music sounds compressed when going through the processor in a surround mode. He appears to like his music in pure direct as well. I use the pure direct because I want straight two channel stereo. But I also want it when the surround system is playing a movie sound track. I want the music to work like it would in pure direct. I want the processor to bring the other elements of of the surround system together to play without messing much with the mains. If equaliztion is necessary on the mains for some reason, then one shouldn't use pure direct. One should use a stereo mode that goes through the processor. The many years I spent as a high end audiophile still wants me to keep things as clean as possible. That's the way I like it.

 

[panteragstk]

As AcuDef explains, there are many factors. I'm an old school audiophile who was finally cured of the disease. My belief is that speakers and room acoustics are everything and I spend quite a bit of time working on the room acoustics. My belief is that you should have things right for music listening without any processing. The processing can handle things like distance, level matching, reverb, sub Xover etc etc. When you are done, however, the main pair should play music as well as it does in pure direct. Processing shouldn't make it play better or even meaningfully differently. That is my belief. I listen to music a lot on my home theater so I have that part of it pretty well handled without any processing. So does AcuDef. Remember he said his music sounds compressed when going through the processor in a surround mode. He appears to like his music in pure direct as well. I use the pure direct because I want straight two channel stereo. But I also want it when the surround system is playing a movie sound track. I want the music to work like it would in pure direct. I want the processor to bring the other elements of of the surround system together to play without messing much with the mains. If equaliztion is necessary on the mains for some reason, then one shouldn't use pure direct. One should use a stereo mode that goes through the processor. The many years I spent as a high end audiophile still wants me to keep things as clean as possible. That's the way I like it.

While your logic makes perfect sense, I have a few questions. Wouldn't adding some sort or processing (THX music, cinema, PLIIx or what ever) change the sound no matter the settings? My understanding of what pure direct is is that there is literally no processing being done. If it should sound the same with process what's the point of processing? I also wonder how it is possible to sound the same when matrixing surround channels to a 2.0 stereo mix? To me, changing any of this with drastically alter the sound, there's even a difference between sound modes.

So, how would someone "calibrate" their system so that each of these modes essentially sound the same? Well, not necessarily the same because if matrixed surround sounded exactly the same as 2ch it would be pointless. My question is more for 5.1 sources. I ask because I was playing around with some things on my 809 and pure direct for 5.1 sounded terrible to my ears compared to PLIIx movie mode with all the audyssey stuff enabled. This tells me something isn't right. I shouldn't have that issue with 5.1. Granted this was with a TV recording so the mix could have been terrible. When I've done the same for 5.1 music the issue doesn't come up. Pure direct sounds great.

Thoughts?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I use the pure direct because I want straight two channel stereo. But I also want it when the surround system is playing a movie sound track.

I actually use Pure Direct mode for both MOVIES & MUSIC.

For music I use Pure Direct 2.2 (unless it is multichannel discrete music SACD/DVD-A/DTS-HD & TrueHD BD).

For movies, I use Pure Direct 5.2 DTS-HD MA & Dolby TrueHD.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wouldn't adding some sort or processing (THX music, cinema, PLIIx or what ever) change the sound no matter the settings? My understanding of what pure direct is is that there is literally no processing being done. If it should sound the same with process what's the point of processing?

I have never heard anyone (until now) say that using DSP modes like THX Cinema Mode sounds the same as Pure Direct. Never.

I would really like to know personally if anyone else thinks that DSP modes like THX Cinema Mode sound the same as Pure Direct.

 

[fmw]

While your logic makes perfect sense, I have a few questions. Wouldn't adding some sort or processing (THX music, cinema, PLIIx or what ever) change the sound no matter the settings? My understanding of what pure direct is is that there is literally no processing being done. If it should sound the same with process what's the point of processing? I also wonder how it is possible to sound the same when matrixing surround channels to a 2.0 stereo mix? To me, changing any of this with drastically alter the sound, there's even a difference between sound modes.

Adding the additional speakers in a surround mode certainly changes the ambience of the sound from two channel stereo. No question about that. But it is certainly possible to have the mains adjusted so that they sound about like they sound in pure direct, ignoring all the other things going on. The major purpose of processing is to extract the surround information and send it to the correct speakers. Its secondary purpose is to adjust the sound of each speaker to produce whatever effect one desires. My desire is to have the mains pretty clean.

So, how would someone "calibrate" their system so that each of these modes essentially sound the same? Well, not necessarily the same because if matrixed surround sounded exactly the same as 2ch it would be pointless. My question is more for 5.1 sources. I ask because I was playing around with some things on my 809 and pure direct for 5.1 sounded terrible to my ears compared to PLIIx movie mode with all the audyssey stuff enabled. This tells me something isn't right. I shouldn't have that issue with 5.1. Granted this was with a TV recording so the mix could have been terrible. When I've done the same for 5.1 music the issue doesn't come up. Pure direct sounds great.

Thoughts?

The way I do it is to run the auto calibration routine and then adjust from there in a second manual round. I normally have to remove the EQ from the mains and I also increase their levels slightly. Just a matter of preference. I am music oriented and I like to have the mains a little cleaner since the mains do most of the music delivery in a sound track. My auto calibration does a pretty good job of matching the sound of the speakers and getting the levels right. The final tweak for the mains isn't dramatic and is pretty simple. But it makes me comfortable during those music passages in the sound track. I have no idea how your system works but if you can adjust the parameters of each speaker manually, then you can try my approach to see if you like it.

 

[fmw]

I have never heard anyone (until now) say that using DSP modes like THX Cinema Mode sounds the same as Pure Direct. Never.

I would really like to know personally if anyone else thinks that DSP modes like THX Cinema Mode sound the same as Pure Direct.

Why not? Everything is adjustable. You can do what I do with your system just like I do it, if you want to. I think there is some confusion here. I'm talking about the main speaker pair sounding about the same in both modes. I'm not suggesting that sitting in a room and comparing a 5.1 surround sound and a stereo sound will be indistinguishable. If you want to do what I do, just turn off the EQ in your mains. You should get close enough just by doing that. Why is this even an issue?