Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

[Irvrobinson]

A fan would affect sound quality. My point also assumes the same number of channels. If the sound quality was the same then why choose an equally equipped (channels and wattage) expensive Krell or Linn over a moderately priced ATI.

I can't speak for a Linn, because I have some pretty serious issues with Linn's philosophies as a company, but a high-end Krell amp is in another engineering league altogether from even the ATI AT3000. The Krell 900e is an amazing amplifier. Engineering overkill is the name of the game here. Of course, I'll save Jinjuku a post by saying that a Crown I-T12000HD (what a catchy name...) will probably out-perform the Krell in almost every way that matters for about $6K on the internet, when a pair of the Krells lists at $40K, at about one tenth the weight. Unless, of course, you believe that amplifiers sound different...

 

[PENG]

Why would any sane person spend any more money than necessary to purchase an amplifier that provided no difference in sound quality or reliability for a given output wattage (actual not rated)?

An interesting question, but if they did sound different, which kind of sound/color do you like? I guess manufacturers would have to find out what kind of sound color most people prefer in order to maximize sales. I am not sure if there are practical ways for people to compare most if not all amps within their budget, in order to find out which kind of sound they like.

I consider myself lucky that I find amps that specs well seem to mimic the sound I hear live in unamplified concerts, that's my reference and I am sticking to it. Yes I know the sound I heard in concerns are still influenced by the specific concert hall's acoustic characteristics, but everything else being equal it still is the best reference I can use to determine if the amp sounds accurate, aside from the specs on paper. I also do have enough faith in specs on paper from reputable manufacturers especially those tested/measured by reputable reviewers.

 

[PENG]

Not really BS..
If an amplifiers' voltage output swing is altered and/or cut back due to the protection circuitry being activated this is very audible.. Really depends upon the load and reactance seen by the amplifier...
Something in the early audio days of analog that was not as apparent due to a max dynamic range of 80dB...
But with the high bit rate of quality loss-less source material and high dynamic range >110dB, amplifiers can now be pushed and stressed more easily..

Keep in mind...
To differentiate the sonic quality of amplifiers, one needs higher resolution loudspeakers and amplifiers, typically not found in a typical home theater AVR..

Just my $0.02...

Without getting down to the fine details, we can once again agree to disagree, not totally but sort of..

 

[PENG]

Engineering overkill is the name of the game here.

Exactly, for that reason alone, I would love to own one, even an used one if I can afford it.

 

[RichB]

Not really BS..
If an amplifiers' voltage output swing is altered and/or cut back due to the protection circuitry being activated this is very audible.. Really depends upon the load and reluctance seen by the amplifier...
Something in the early audio days of analog that was not as apparent due to a max dynamic range of 80dB...
But with the high bit rate of quality loss-less source material and high dynamic range >110dB, amplifiers can now be pushed and stressed more easily..

Keep in mind...
To differentiate the sonic quality of amplifiers, one needs higher resolution loudspeakers and amplifiers, typically not found in a typical home theater AVR..

Just my $0.02...

So is there anything to the Parasound design where they claim a direct output path?

This seems to result in a ridiculously high slew rate of > 130 V/µsecond and damping factor of >1100. The other interesting *feature* is the very high input impedance of 47 k Ω unbalanced; 94 k Ω balanced.

It looks like it has good spec's but measurements at HomeTheaterHifi make it look like it might ring a bit:

Parasound Halo A 31 Three-Channel Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

At least we know that amps do measure differently.

- Rich

 

[M Code]

So is there anything to the Parasound design where they claim a direct output path?

This seems to result in a ridiculously high slew rate of > 130 V/µsecond and damping factor of >1100. The other interesting *feature* is the very high input impedance of 47 k Ω unbalanced; 94 k Ω balanced.

It looks like it has good spec's but measurements at HomeTheaterHifi make it look like it might ring a bit:

Parasound Halo A 31 Three-Channel Power Amplifier - Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

At least we know that amps do measure differently.

- Rich

Rich...
I would need to review the amplifier's schematic to better understand its circuits..
However I can tell we know the owner of Parasound, his overseas design team well plus his lead engineer John Curl...
And they know their stuff...
Together the design team has well over 125 years of experience in designing kick-butt, great sounding power amplifiers....

A key point for the design team, is that they need to design protection circuits that protect an amplifier from self-destruction (short circuits, driver shorted, thermal conditions) while minimizing their effect on sonics. Several posts back, someone made a point that all amplifiers sound the same or similar, as long they are operated within their design parameters... This is quite true, but when an amplifier kicks in its protection circuitry due to some issue then all bets are off..

Very similar to what happens to a car engine when it hits the rev limiter..

Just my $0.02..

 

[PENG]

At least we know that amps do measure differently.

- Rich

Don't we know that all along, that they do measure differently? As far as I know people are only debating/speculating whether such differences can be heard.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Think function first, then fashion.

What?

If you can afford a more fashionable amp, congrats on your success.

Nice save.

 

[jinjuku]

So you don't believe hifi amp designers engineer amps to "color" the signal being amplified to distinguish there product from other designers? Or maybe this would be considered "bad" design since the true goal should be to create an amplified output that mirrors the source as closely as possible.

I'm sure designers do all sorts of stuff and then market the difference. I'm sure you could tweak your TV to have tons of green push also... In a purists sense an amp should be straight wire with gain.

 

[jinjuku]

A fan would affect sound quality. My point also assumes the same number of channels. If the sound quality was the same then why choose an equally equipped (channels and wattage) expensive Krell or Linn over a moderately priced ATI.

People purchase name plates all the time. Take a look at the resale value on Jags and Land Rover's sometime. Land Rover is one of the biggest piles of junk out there from a reliability and service cost stand point. But I see more Coach toting, DG sun-glass wearing, trout spouted, bleached blond bobble heads driving them around then you can shake a stick at.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If the sound quality was the same then why choose an equally equipped (channels and wattage) expensive Krell or Linn over a moderately priced ATI.

Oh, man, if I were a multimillionaire I would buy some Krells too.

TAD Reference One x 5 and all Krell electronics. Oh, yeah.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Guitar amps are a whole different breed. They are often intentionally "poorly" designed to have a sound of their own.

Or, they are well designed just for that sonic signature of that model But it isn't a hi-fi amp for sure.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why would any sane person spend any more money than necessary to purchase an amplifier that provided no difference in sound quality or reliability for a given output wattage (actual not rated)?

Why would a sane person buy a higher priced 5 lb sugar? Perhaps they like the brand of that bag of sugar because their parents or grandparents used it exclusively? Marketing? Urban legends, myths. etc?
Why would a sane person buy homeopathic stuff??? or one brand over another that may be more expensive?

Human nature. The Barnum Effect.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Oh, man, if I were a multimillionaire ... Oh, yeah.

That's what it would take. Not sure how many multis but certainly more than a couple for me.

 

[Grador]

Why would a sane person buy homeopathic stuff???

There have been enough worms that have been uncanned in this thread, lets really not go there.....

 

[dpattillo]

Please don't get the impression that I'm a sane individual . I love having and showing off nice toys as much as anybody

Why would a sane person buy a higher priced 5 lb sugar? Perhaps they like the brand of that bag of sugar because their parents or grandparents used it exclusively? Marketing? Urban legends, myths. etc?
Why would a sane person buy homeopathic stuff??? or one brand over another that may be more expensive?

Human nature. The Barnum Effect.

 

[cpp]

People purchase name plates all the time. Take a look at the resale value on Jags and Land Rover's sometime. Land Rover is one of the biggest piles of junk out there from a reliability and service cost stand point. But I see more Coach toting, DG sun-glass wearing, trout spouted, bleached blond bobble heads driving them around then you can shake a stick at.

If you got money, who cares...

 

[cpp]

Why would a sane person buy a higher priced 5 lb sugar? Perhaps they like the brand of that bag of sugar because their parents or grandparents used it exclusively? Marketing? Urban legends, myths. etc?
Why would a sane person buy homeopathic stuff??? or one brand over another that may be more expensive?

Human nature. The Barnum Effect.

Well because they can, advertisements, status symbol, and it seems people with money can't lower themselves to buy a store brand, it has to be a name brand or as they say 'keeping up with the Jones' . And it happens in audio more than you think..

 

[Irvrobinson]

People purchase name plates all the time. Take a look at the resale value on Jags and Land Rover's sometime. Land Rover is one of the biggest piles of junk out there from a reliability and service cost stand point.

All high-end cars have lousy resale values. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, whatever. I personally wouldn't own a Land Rover, but the several people I know that own them are crazy about them. I'd rather have a Land Rover than one of those ugly and terrible to drive Lexus RX things, even though the horrendous Lexus is probably more reliable.

 

[3db]

All high-end cars have lousy resale values. BMW, Mercedes, Porsche, whatever. I personally wouldn't own a Land Rover, but the several people I know that own them are crazy about them. I'd rather have a Land Rover than one of those ugly and terrible to drive Lexus RX things, even though the horrendous Lexus is probably more reliable.

Not probably more reliable, IS more reliable....but they are uglier than a bag of hammers. Porsche holds their retail value well for a high end car.