Pure Direct vs Stereo

[cpp]

Has anyone ever compared PD vs Stereo between a single-ended AVR vs fully balanced pre-pro & fully balanced amp? Probably not.

Let see, I can take my ATI and my pre-amp which is fully balanced and the drag my Denon Upstairs and hook it up to the same speakers... Now all I need now is balanced cables.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Let see, I can take my ATI and my pre-amp which is fully balanced and the drag my Denon Upstairs and hook it up to the same speakers... Now all I need now is balanced cables.

Sounds like way too much work (UPSTAIRS ).

 

[TLS Guy]

Has anyone ever compared PD vs Stereo between a single-ended AVR vs fully balanced pre-pro & fully balanced amp? Probably not.

Balanced versus unbalanced has nothing to do with sound quality. Balanced cables are more resistant to picking up induced hum and RF interference on long runs. If an unbalanced connection has good signal to noise, then that is actually the simplest and most reliable connection.

There is more circuitry involved with a balanced connection and with solid state front ends there is more chance of getting asymmetry in the wave form due to the two halves of the circuit not being exact mirror images.

In my experience if you have noise in a domestic situation it is usually due to a ground loop and balanced cables will not correct that.

There must be precious few domestic situations were balanced connections are necessary or even desirable.

 

[RichB]

Let see, I can take my ATI and my pre-amp which is fully balanced and the drag my Denon Upstairs and hook it up to the same speakers... Now all I need now is balanced cables.

Or, just get really long balanced cables

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Balanced versus unbalanced has nothing to do with sound quality.

That's one opinion. But really, how do you know since you CURRENTLY DO NOT own a fully balanced pre-pro and amp?

And we're specifically talking about Pure Direct vs Stereo in fully balanced components. How would you know since your components are single-ended?

Gene doesn't share your belief because he prefers a fully balanced Pre-pro and fully balanced amp. He owns a fully balanced pre-pro and amp. Another opinion.

Maybe there is a difference. Maybe there isn't. Seems like everyone has an opinion.

 

[RichB]

Balanced versus unbalanced has nothing to do with sound quality. Balanced cables are more resistant to picking up induced hum and RF interference on long runs. If an unbalanced connection has good signal to noise, then that is actually the simplest and most reliable connection.

There is more circuitry involved with a balanced connection and with solid state front ends there is more chance of getting asymmetry in the wave form due to the two halves of the circuit not being exact mirror images.

In my experience if you have noise in a domestic situation it is usually due to a ground loop and balanced cables will not correct that.

There must be precious few domestic situations were balanced connections are necessary or even desirable.

There are reviewers that insist that on non-balanced amps like the Halo A51, balanced was much better.
Of course, you may believe reviewer's opinions are.... you know, suspect.
I do sometimes, but I trust some more than others.

For me:

• ATI spec's faster slew rates,
• ATI has standard 28DB gain on XLR,
• they are cheap enough,
• Easier to connect because of better spacing on the Preamp,
• They lock, and
• they wont hurt.

- Rich

 

[cpp]

Sounds like way too much work (UPSTAIRS ).

I know and I'm still in the "PT" mode since knee surgery and darn it, I would have to unhook every freaking cable that's connected to the 4311 to include, OPPO, Cable Box, TV, the wife's Denon DCM 390 CD carousel, all the speakers, power cords, routers etc.... It's maddening I tell ya


But on another note, I did however connect my new balanced cables I just got from my local stereo shop friend about a hour ago. Climbed the stairs, unhooked, my ATI interconnects to the pre-amp and hooked up balanced cables all the way from the OPPO to the pre to the ATI. Put a Dire Straits CD in the OPPO and sat down and listened. After 30 minutes , hooked everything back up the way it was, sat down listened, could I hear a difference, NOPE. And were only talking about balanced connections no longer than 1 meter ( that's my overall cable length) with most connections under 24 ". I'll take these cables back to my friend in the morning.. Of course that's just my opinion.

 

[RichB]

That's one opinion. But really, how do you know since you CURRENTLY DO NOT own a fully balanced pre-pro and amp?

And we're specifically talking about Pure Direct vs Stereo in fully balanced components. How would you know since your components are single-ended?

Gene doesn't share your belief because he prefers a fully balanced Pre-pro and fully balanced amp. He owns a fully balanced pre-pro and amp. Another opinion.

Maybe there is a difference. Maybe there isn't. Seems like everyone has an opinion.

Since we are talking about cables and such.
I played some piano based jazz and quickly switch between the COAX and HDMI connections and they sound very different from the BDP-105 to the AV8801 preamp. I found that same was true for the Onkyo PR-SC5507.

You might want to try COAX (RCA) and compare it to HDMI playing some CD's on your system.
LPCM is not particularly well suited for HDMI so depending on your equipment, you might just find they sound different.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I know and I'm still in the "PT" mode since knee surgery and darn it, I would have to unhook every freaking cable that's connected to the 4311 to include, OPPO, Cable Box, TV, the wife's Denon DCM 390 CD carousel, all the speakers, power cords, routers etc.... It's maddening I tell ya


But on another note, I did however connect my new balanced cables I just got from my local stereo shop friend about a hour ago. Climbed the stairs, unhooked, my ATI interconnects to the pre-amp and hooked up balanced cables all the way from the OPPO to the pre to the ATI. Put a Dire Straits CD in the OPPO and sat down and listened. After 30 minutes , hooked everything back up the way it was, sat down listened, could I hear a difference, NOPE. And were only talking about balanced connections no longer than 1 meter ( that's my overall cable length) with most connections under 24 ". I'll take these cables back to my friend in the morning.. Of course that's just my opinion.

I've always felt the same. I changed my view only recently w/ my AVP-A1 + AT3005. Set for Large, LFE+Main, Salon2, 80Hz XO, I could tell a clear difference between PD 2.2 vs Stereo 2.2. If I set speakers to Small, I couldn't tell much of a difference. Only when I changed to Large.

Bottom line, both Stereo & PD sound pretty great.

I really started this whole thread just because I could get kicka$$ SUBWOOFER output even in PD. Really no other reason - just curious since I was never able to get full tremendous subwoofer output in PD before.

I can't believe you did that with bad knees and everything. I wouldn't have.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Since we are talking about cables and such.
I played some piano based jazz and quickly switch between the COAX and HDMI connections and they sound very different from the BDP-105 to the AV8801 preamp. I found that same was true for the Onkyo PR-SC5507.

You might want to try COAX (RCA) and compare it to HDMI playing some CD's on your system.
LPCM is not particularly well suited for HDMI so depending on your equipment, you might just find they sound different.

- Rich

Unlike cpp, I am too damn lazy to even try, even with good knees and all.

I'll just take your word for it.

 

[RichB]

Unlike cpp, I am too damn lazy to even try, even with good knees and all.

I'll just take your word for it.

YMMV, but I much prefer the COAX the sound is more open.

- Rich

 

[Grador]

LPCM is not particularly well suited for HDMI

You're going to have to explain this

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

YMMV, but I much prefer the COAX the sound is more open.

- Rich

You know why I think HDMI sounds better?

For 7.1, you would need 8 Coax cables vs ONE HDMI...... So, hmm, yeah, like HDMI sounds better, okay? Live with it.

 

[3db]

That's one opinion. But really, how do you know since you CURRENTLY DO NOT own a fully balanced pre-pro and amp?

And we're specifically talking about Pure Direct vs Stereo in fully balanced components. How would you know since your components are single-ended?

Gene doesn't share your belief because he prefers a fully balanced Pre-pro and fully balanced amp. He owns a fully balanced pre-pro and amp. Another opinion.

Maybe there is a difference. Maybe there isn't. Seems like everyone has an opinion.

TLS is correct in his assessment. A balanced system only becomes useful if its an RF noisy environment or if the interconnects are ridiculously long. Ask why Gene prefers fully balanced components? I don't think its because of the sound.

 

[panteragstk]

TLS is correct in his assessment. A balanced system only becomes useful if its an RF noisy environment or if the interconnects are ridiculously long. Ask why Gene prefers fully balanced components? I don't think its because of the sound.

I was under the impression that a balanced system was able to provide more voltage to the amp from the pre-amp? Whether or not that's important is another question.

 

[3db]

I was under the impression that a balanced system was able to provide more voltage to the amp from the pre-amp? Whether or not that's important is another question.

Thats not so important as a level matched listening test takes that effect out. It is useful however in real life if cable runs are very long.

 

[RichB]

You know why I think HDMI sounds better?

For 7.1, you would need 8 Coax cables vs ONE HDMI...... So, hmm, yeah, like HDMI sounds better, okay? Live with it.

I am refering to using a single RCA cable for the COAX SPDIF digital stream.
Digital is digital if you clock it right. Not all processors are good at re-assembling the LPCM from the gaps in the video stream.
Not all HDMI receivers are well behaved. It makes no difference for encoded formats.
It CAN make a difference.

Granted, it does not support HD audio codecs or 7.1 LPCM.
For that, I also use the 7.1 analog connections.

You seemed to care about 2 channel performance, so I thought I would mention it.
That's all.

- Rich

 

[panteragstk]

Thats not so important as a level matched listening test takes that effect out. It is useful however in real life if cable runs are very long.

Figured as much. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am refering to using a single RCA cable for the COAX SPDIF digital stream.
Digital is digital if you clock it right. Not all processors are good at re-assembling the LPCM from the gaps in the video stream.
Not all HDMI receivers are well behaved. It makes no difference for encoded formats.
It CAN make a difference.

Granted, it does not support HD audio codecs or 7.1 LPCM.
For that, I also use the 7.1 analog connections.

You seemed to care about 2 channel performance, so I thought I would mention it.
That's all.

- Rich

Oh.

I always listen to music in 2.2 (now PD2.2). But I'm good w/ HDMI.

 

[RichB]

YMMV, but I much prefer the COAX the sound is more open.

You're going to have to explain this

HDMI cannot transmit audio without video and it packs the audio in the frames between the video.
The stream has to be packed and unpacked, placed back in a buffer and then properly clocked.
Whereas, COAX is streamed directly.

None of that should be a problem, but I have found that HDMI and COAX can sound different.
I am not sure if it is jitter, but HDMI receivers have been shown to have orders of magnitude more than COAX.

I am not trying to say that folks will find a difference, if you are intersted in experimenting, it is something to try.
After all, there should be no difference between Direct and Pure Direct but many folks had found that there is.

- Rich