stereo amplifier vs AV receiver

[Goliath]

He's correct as far as amps/power supplies go. Again using the HK3490 as an example, compare it's power supply and capacitance vs. that of similarly priced AVRs, and it's no contest. NAD is devoted to class G/H power supplies, which work great for producing ridiculous IHF ratings for their marketing department, and just happen to work pretty well for music reproduction. It is their dual/multi/variable rail setup that allows NAD to punch above what their continuous power ratings would lead one to expect.

So what does that mean now? Stereo amps do outperform AVR's in some aspects?

 

[3db]

Mine wasn't an evolution at all. I was on an internet forum in 1998 and read a review of digital cables with the normal sonic adjectives - you know, pace, rhythm, musical etc. I asked how the connection could affect the sound since it wasn't waveforms but rather data that the cables were transmitting. It made no logical sense to me. I got the usual criticism about my ability to hear. So I put together a group of 10 audiophiles to pool equipment and conduct double blind bias controlled listening tests. After we eliminated the nonsense about audible digital cables we ended up spending a couple of years dealing with the rest of the components. I ended my audiophilia during that first ear opening test. None of the 10 engage in audiophilia any longer. I'm sure the audiophiles will say their ears are more golden than ours were. Not a problem as long as it makes them happy.

Very nice. Congrats to you and your friends.

 

[ski2xblack]

So what does that mean now? Stereo amps do outperform AVR's in some aspects?

Not necessarily. In fact, given the economies of scale, you often have to pay more for equal performance in two channel gear. (The HK is kind of an exception, being a very good watt/dollar proposition, but keep in mind it lacks the basics that even the least expensive AVRs possess.)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Power comparison: 2Ch, 1kHz, 1% THD, 8 ohm/ 4 ohm

$500 HK Stereo Receiver: 116w/ 178w

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/hk-3490/hk-3490-measurements

$500 Sony STR-DN1030 AVR: 134w/167w

Sony STR-DN1030 A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures | Home Theater

So looks like the Sony edges the HK into 8 ohms by 18 watts, and trails the HK into 4 ohms by 11 watts.

 

[Goliath]

Thanks for showing the tests. Although he'll probably just say the measurements don't tell the whole story with real speaker loads, as opposed to resistive loads which are more predictable?

 

[3db]

So what does that mean now? Stereo amps do outperform AVR's in some aspects?

A qualified yes......but with qualification that many entry level AVRs are built to hit a certain price point and maintain a certain feature set. As a result, many manufactureres opt out on a more robust power supply and amplifier section. It doesn't mean that entry level AVRs sound worse (although it will if matched to a loudspeaker it cannot driver properly) What it means is those entry level AVRS have a narrower selection of loudspeakers that it can work with well compared to that a mid level AVRs with beefier amplifier sections and power supplies. Mid level receivers can work with more demanding loudspeakers.

Most of the money spent on an amp will go towards the amp and power supply sections with these sections not having to compete for dollars for teh additional feature sets found on AVRs. However, that doesn't make an amp more musical. It just gives the amp an ability to drive more difficult speakers than an AVR.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I give up.

 

[Goliath]

Give up??? With what?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I consider guys like us the "converted audiophiles" and the other guys "old audiophiles".

Aren't you just old, period?

 

[mtrycrafts]

He is a hard core audiophile. ....

I almost missed this.
Does this warrant a XXX rating?

 

[mtrycrafts]

.... However, that doesn't make an amp more musical. It just gives the amp an ability to drive more difficult speakers than an AVR.

And, we are back to that pesky design limit of an amp.

 

[3db]

And, we are back to that pesky design limit of an amp.

Like we can run and hide from that???

 

[fmw]

I consider guys like us the "converted audiophiles" and the other guys "old audiophiles".

I'm just an old former audiophile. .....and getting older by the day.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Aren't you just old, period?

Yes, 42 is too damn old compared to these twenty-something college students.

 

[fmw]

So what does that mean now? Stereo amps do outperform AVR's in some aspects?

Absolutely but those performance parameters have nothing to do with how the system sounds. They have to do with the specifications. There are basically two issues for power supplies. They need to be quiet and they need to deliver enough current to the power transistors to allow them to perform to specification. You can have an overbuilt power supply, if you like, but it doesn't make the amp more "musical." It does make it heavier and "neater." Let's look at "punch above what their continuous power ratings would lead one to expect." I'm not sure what this means. I assume it means the amp can handle power peaks that go above the continuous power rating without distorting audibly. When amps distort audibly the clip the waveforms and produce an ugly sound. All that means is that the amplifier has to have enough power to drive the load without clipping. Some amps are underrated and some are overrated. I assume the poster views his favorite amp as one that is underrated and it could well be. Nothing wrong with that. I'm just trying to get you to understand that you need to ignore all the gobbledy gook. Properly designed solid state amplifiers will produce the same results as long as they aren't clipping. The power required depends on the size of the listening room, the efficiency and nominal impedance of the speakers and the user's listening habits. That is another issue. Don't get hung up on slew rates and underrated power supplies and all that stuff. Properly designed covers all of that and the overwhelming majority of modern AVR's and amps are properly designed. If they weren't their manufacturers would go out of business.

 

[TLS Guy]

DSP absolutely affects sound quality. And yes, you have the capability to bypass the DSP, RC, EQ. So thus, it is the equivalent of NOT having DSP like a stereo preamp. The electrical measurements also show the equivalence (SNR, THD, Crosstalk, FR, etc).

Not on the bench it doesn't. Well designed and implemented digital signal processors have excellent fidelity. This gets back to the nonsense of vinyl LPs being better than modern digital sources. That really is nonsense, good though vintage analog sources can be.

 

[TLS Guy]

In fact, this is what he said :

"if you want surround, then stick with your avr. but my conviction is that your front speakers can benefit from a decent amplifier that you can connect to your pre out. but if you want decent stereo and do not want to rely on the little opamp based preamp in the avr then i would get a preamp with a SSP loop. the SSP loop is basicly a input on the preamp that goes directly to the AVR. when you select other inputs you do not have the AVR in the system."

Now you are saying that bypassing the EQ, DSP means it's effectively a stereo amp. So then he doesn't know about modern technology or there is something about stereo amplifiers that are perhaps better built for stereo. Not sure what opamps are in amplifiers, but if you take 2 amps, one an entry-level receiver and an entry-level stereo amp, wouldn't the stereo amp be better built for the same money?

I don't know if there are any measurements of 2 ch amps and avr's so I can see the difference in measurements between the two? I know hometheater.com reviews AVR's and have test bench results but I don't see any stereo amp measurements. Would like to compare the two using same testing methodologies.

More nonsense. Op amp chips that cost a dollar or two beat tube preamps any day.

The area were I think receivers come up short are the power amps which in the main are pretty nasty. I'm a firm believer in good external amplification and don't use receivers. I really like current dumping amps. I definitely find them superior to the ubiquitous class A/B amps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Not on the bench it doesn't. Well designed and implemented digital signal processors have excellent fidelity.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

When we say "DSP" we're talking about 7Ch Strereo DSP, THX DSP, Stadium DSP, Hall DSP, Concert DSP modes, which are NOT high fidelity.

We are not talking about discrete digital signal processing like Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA, DSD-SACD, and PCM which are high fidelity.

We are talking about Tone Controls (Room Correction, EQ, DSP modes).

So DSP modes (tones) absolutely affects sound quality.

 

[Katherinelewitcki]

Hey guys, I am looking for people interested in helping me to develop the first tube amp/reciever, so far there is just one or the other as in combination it's a catastrophe. I have the idea of how to implement the electronics but having a lack of knowledge in tubing, takes me ages to arrive to a pro result. maybe one of you wants to add on to this project ?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hey guys, I am looking for people interested in helping me to develop the first tube amp/reciever, so far there is just one or the other as in combination it's a catastrophe. I have the idea of how to implement the electronics but having a lack of knowledge in tubing, takes me ages to arrive to a pro result. maybe one of you wants to add on to this project ?

The question is why.

This will be a monumental task and the results severely inferior to solid state offerings. This will be especially true in the radio section, where phased lock loop solid state chips offer superior performance by far to anything that could be replicated with tubes.

If you do build a tube pre, power amp tuner combo, you will have a huge piece of equipment. Your metal and chassis fabrication will be an enormous task, even with a well equipped metal shop.

Finding and sourcing components to build such a unit will be next to impossible. Even ganged analog volume controls have pretty much disappeared from the face of the Earth. The ones that are produced have poor reliability and plague manufacturers that insist on this type of electronics to cater to the lunatic Audiophool fringe.

At the end you will have an out of date inferior product.

If this is really what you want, then purchase a vintage one from before the solid state era and restore it, if you have the skill.

This will be a museum piece and not something to put into daily use. Anything you build from scratch will almost certainly be inferior to the good vintage unit and markedly inferior to modern solid state electronics in ALL aspects.

Somehow I suspect you have sniffed the hallucinatory Audiophool vapors! Purge them now!