Bryston Model T Floorstanding Speakers

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think it's a "all about the name " pricing vs actual construction or materials chosen. I would think since most people enjoy Bryston amps, Bryston much be assuming that their 1st speaker would be "the best they can do" but like most of the " BIG' producers of audio devices, overpricing based on a name is not the way to win a market. But like I said further back, who knows until someone actually puts these speakers in a test environment and does some measurements of the internal vibrational behavior of the panels and the other usual impedance and axis measurements not to mention how the speaker actually sounds to see if the "price and construction of this speaker equals the price advertised. I think all high end speakers and audio equipment manufacturers today are living off the name to justify price, its time to get real with pricing..

Yeah, but regardless of measurement, who's going to buy a $10K speaker if they know it was made with $17 tweeter ? Not any of us.

Game over.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah, but regardless of measurement, who's going to buy a $10K speaker if they know it was made with $17 tweeter ? Not any of us.

Game over.

That may true 95% of the time, but... take the example of Dunlavy Labs speakers from the first half of the last decade. They were very expensive full-range systems, and yet Dunlavy chose some rather cheap drivers, especially tweeters, even in systems that cost $25K+ in 2004. Regardless of the driver cost, the Dunlavys were considered some of the best speakers of their day. Great engineering can make the difference. That may not be the case in the subject of this thread, but blanket statements about technology and what can be done with it always make me uncomfortable.

 

[exlabdriver]

Censor? I & nobody else here has the powers to 'censor' anyone, except perhaps the forum owners.

More assumptions about what the tweeters cost. Who knows yet what is behind the front face?

Brystons are larger, at a different price point for a different marketplace hence different build techniques. It will be up to this brand name whether or not they send them out for testing - nothing to do with the builder. It is probable that someone with deeper pockets than mine would be proud to have those Zebras in their home...

TAM

 

[monkish54]

More assumptions about what the tweeters cost. Who knows yet what is behind the front face?

Why defend them? Even if the tweets are $35 they chose to include the exact same tweeter in their $10,000 product as Axiom included in their $1,500. Not only that, they charge you for a proper finish. Between the tweeter and vinyl, it is clear they have absolutely no concern for releasing the best they can at this price point.

About the tweeter: Not only do they use the same material and look exactly the same, the price tag fits in perfectly with the average markup for speakers. They don't make a lot of expensive tweeters with weird looking shield things covering the dome. Also, titanium is not used for tweeters very often. The usual for a metal dome is aluminum.

 

[gtpsuper24]

The problem with the way Axiom guys see this is that "who cares how much or how cheap the tweeter is, as long as it sounds good" or "who cares if it uses proper bracing or not, as long as it sounds good". I and the growing number of people find Axiom to not have much if any value compared to what they use to. They've just watched the competition get better and instead of going above and beyond in quality (even if it doesn't make a difference in sound) they just come up with excuses.

I get that expensive quality components doesn't always make the speaker sound better. But if your going to charge a certain price for the speaker it better use better components than cheap stamped frames and hollow cabinets. Or your just going to become irrelevant as time goes by. I doubt it will ever happen as they just view us a crazy fools for wanting a certain level of quality at certain price points.

The biggest issue I keep bringing up is they cheap out on so much stuff but charge a premium for it. If you in Canada the price differences are much smaller but if your in the states Axioms price to quality compared to the competition isn't even close. When I can buy a tower speaker for $750 that exceeds or matches the quality of the $1500 Axiom M80s theres something wrong. It begins to stink of penny pitching profits.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That may true 95% of the time, but... take the example of Dunlavy Labs speakers from the first half of the last decade. They were very expensive full-range systems, and yet Dunlavy chose some rather cheap drivers, especially tweeters, even in systems that cost $25K+ in 2004. Regardless of the driver cost, the Dunlavys were considered some of the best speakers of their day. Great engineering can make the difference. That may not be the case in the subject of this thread, but blanket statements about technology and what can be done with it always make me uncomfortable.

The question is, did those Dunlavy buyers KNOW that the drivers were CHEAP when they bought them?

IOW, if we told all those buyers right before they bought those speakers that the drivers were only $17 each, would they still buy the $25,000 speakers?

My guess is, none of those buyers knew that the drivers were cheap parts. They probably assumed that $25,000 speakers would automatically have all high-end expensive parts and drivers.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The question is, did those Dunlavy buyers KNOW that the drivers were CHEAP when they bought them?

IOW, if we told all those buyers right before they bought those speakers that the drivers were only $17 each, would they still buy the $25,000 speakers?

My guess is, none of those buyers knew that the drivers were cheap parts. They probably assumed that $25,000 speakers would automatically have all high-end expensive parts and drivers.

Oh yeah, Dunlavy himself used to boast how the tweeters were little more than silk dome Vifas with a modification for damping the back waves. It was no secret. For one thing, any moderately knowledgable audiophile at the time could remove the grilles and think that they've seen all of those drivers before. Dunlavy used all off-the-shelf components.

 

[Chu Gai]

While the drivers were comparatively inexpensive, it's helpful to keep a few things in mind. Each driver was individually tested and those that did not meet his stated criteria were rejected. The drivers were also carefully matched when making the speakers to strive for the greatest consistency in performance in the pair the customer bought. He also kept records of the driver's performance characteristics which was tied to the speaker's serial number. This way if a customer ever blew a tweeter, he could obtain a replacement that matched the original quite easily. The speakers thmselves were said to be individually tested in an anechoic chamber (he had two I believe) and shipped with a fairly comprehensive set of actual measurements. So, while the cost of the speakers may seem disproportionate to the cost of the drivers, in reality the cost reflected the efforts that were expended in their manufacture.

 

[3db]

You can put two and two together, the model t is 50lbs heavier than the Axiom M80. The Model T uses modified EP400 woofers, you own a EP400 right? The EP400 heavy weight comes from the large magnet. Add 3 of those large drivers to the M80 with the large heavy magnets and you make up probably close to 50lbs. So guessitmation is that the MT is heavier because of the much larger drivers like the custom EP400 driver. Even if they weight about 10lbs a piece for the driver thats 30lbs and then take into account the extra height 52.5" compared to Axiom M80s 39-40" and you can see its not going to be 1.5" thick front baffle and a dozen .75" front to rear bracing top to bottom.

When you've taken apart so many speakers and you have an idea of the drivers you can pretty much guess how its going to turn out. Like you said if it works its works, but you also have NO basis to say i'm wrong or right.

Some care for sound as well as build quality. If thats not one of your criteria for purchasing speakers fine, but its very important to some folks. Not just those crazy audiophile fools.

Really? Riddle me this!! Have you taken these speakers apart yes or no? If NOT there is a 50% chance that you are wrong. Its as simple as that. Bracing certainly doesn't weigh as much as the woofers you are talking about if it is even teh woofers you are talking about. Your opinion is an educated guess but far from fact.

Monkish,
You raise some good points. Your overly simplified example of the visually inferior speaker) you showed is not relevant in this arguement. Its still all speculation on everyone's part until they are examined inside and out. My thinking is this ..why would a company like Bryston, a a premier electronics company risk ruining their name by putting out crap. I'm also NOT saying that because Bryston put it out that its automatically going to be a great speaker.

I remember reading all kinds of flac here on this sight where all the "experts" jumped in and thought the Paradigm Sub2 would never work and hit the claimed frequency response (10Hz) at the output level published by Paradigm until measured here at Audioholics. I never heard boo again after that.

My thought is examine them, listen to them and then pass judgement. I've seen far too many experts here get it wrong before the test results came in.

 

[cpp]

Don't worry, you can also get real hardwood veneer
finishes at an additional cost.
ftp://ftp.bryston.com/pub/brochures/HT_SPEAKER.pdf

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Don't worry, you can also get real hardwood veneer
finishes at an additional cost.
ftp://ftp.bryston.com/pub/brochures/HT_SPEAKER.pdf

Wow, that FR looks almost like +/-0.5dB

I wonder how that compares to AH, NRC, or Stereophile.

 

[gtpsuper24]

Don't worry, you can also get real hardwood veneer
finishes at an additional cost.
ftp://ftp.bryston.com/pub/brochures/HT_SPEAKER.pdf

Wonder how SVS and Aperion can offer Piano Gloss in $2000 towers but Bryston/Axiom can't in there $4000 LFR1100s and $6-10K Model T's. Hell even Ascend can off Bamboo cabinets and Piano Gloss and uber expensive Raal and still come in at only a fraction of the cost.

 

[cpp]

Wonder how SVS and Aperion can offer Piano Gloss in $2000 towers but Bryston/Axiom can't in there $4000 LFR1100s and $6-10K Model T's. Hell even Ascend can off Bamboo cabinets and Piano Gloss and uber expensive Raal and still come in at only a fraction of the cost.

Hey its Bryston, on another site James Tanner of Bryston noted regarding Piano finish; "It is but with 7 coats of paint and the labour involved the price almost doubles"

 

[gtpsuper24]

Thats just pure profit rapping right there. Paradigm Signiture S8 is around 7-8K with piano gloss, those are made in Canada too so why is does it take $4k plus more for the Model T's?

Go check out Axioms customize option list and look at the ridiculous prices Ian charges for some of the stuff. $94 for gold, silver or black round feet, $40 for a $5.99 dual binding post Gold Plated Bi-Amp Terminal 260-304 $1200 for Piano gloss for the LFRs. $150 for piano gloss for the M3s but only $50 for piano gloss for the Ascend Sierras. If you want a gold or black Axiom logo instead of the silver well thats $10 extra. The feet, binding posts is a 10 day wait and piano gloss is going to be 30 days.

 

[billy p]

Thats just pure profit rapping right there. Paradigm Signiture S8 is around 7-8K with piano gloss, those are made in Canada too so why is does it take $4k plus more for the Model T's?

Go check out Axioms customize option list and look at the ridiculous prices Ian charges for some of the stuff. $94 for gold, silver or black round feet, $40 for a $5.99 dual binding post Gold Plated Bi-Amp Terminal 260-304 $1200 for Piano gloss for the LFRs. $150 for piano gloss for the M3s but only $50 for piano gloss for the Ascend Sierras. If you want a gold or black Axiom logo instead of the silver well thats $10 extra. The feet, binding posts is a 10 day wait and piano gloss is going to be 30 days.

Just to be clear that added charge is per speaker....PB gloss M3s your looking at ~$286.40 pr...same charge applies for any of the custom wood veneers...ID like Aperion and to some extent Ascend offer PBG to their customer for much less but for personal reasons I don't really care for the PB ...

 

[gtpsuper24]

Just to be clear that added charge is per speaker....PB gloss M3s your looking at ~$286.40 pr...same charge applies for any of the custom wood veneers...ID like Aperion and to some extent Ascend offer PBG to their customer for much less but for personal reasons I don't really care for the PB ...

Wow I just noticed that! I didn't realize it was per speakers, that is crazy.

So I decided to play around with some IDs vs Axiom and add the options that would get the Axioms up to the same standard as Aperion for example. Axiom M3 with cast drivers and piano gloss is $664.20pr vs Aperions $430pr (plus free return shipping)

Aperion 5T tower is $950pr with PG and cast drivers. Axiom M50 comes to $1575 to match the same level as Aperion.

SVS PB12 Plus has standard black or PG as standard options for $1399 free shipping. Axioms EP600 (which doesn't really come close to the PB+) is $2482. A difference of $1100. Both are made in North America and both have respectable drivers, although I'd say SVS is far ahead in that department plus cabinet construction.

Wheres the value with Axiom?

 

[monkish54]

Wheres the value with Axiom?

Value? What value?

I think the fact that people are defending them is far crazier than the 10k price tag! Why people allow them to get away with this nonsense is beyond me!

 

[gene]

Prices of iD Speaker Companies

Guys;

We did our best to analyze the cost differences between ID speaker brands in this article. Also don't forget some companies give you FREE shipping both ways and others don't. It's interesting to note some of the more expensive ID brands initially come out to be a bargain when you realize all of their standard options are upgrades for the alleged cheaper alternatives.

Internet Direct Speaker Brand Comparison

 

[3db]

Guys;

We did our best to analyze the cost differences between ID speaker brands in this article. Also don't forget some companies give you FREE shipping both ways and others don't. It's interesting to note some of the more expensive ID brands initially come out to be a bargain when you realize all of their standard options are upgrades for the alleged cheaper alternatives.

Internet Direct Speaker Brand Comparison

Analogous to buying the top of the line model of a car instead of going to a lower level of the same model and tossing in all the option??

 

[gtpsuper24]

Yeah kind of like buying a Lexus for $60k or buying a Toyota Camry with extra options for $60k. But the Camry is only "looks/jewerly" and not better built, like the Lexus for the same price.

I'm 100% sure that the M80 is similarly good compared to the Model T. The Model T just gives you extra "jewerly" options its not better thats for sure.