Can you hear a difference in Sound between Audio Amplifiers?

Do Amplifiers Sound Different?

  • Yes

    Votes: 105 60.3%
  • No

    Votes: 53 30.5%
  • crikets crickets....What?

    Votes: 16 9.2%

  • Total voters
    174
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Who said this is going to be a DBT? ABX, DBT - all of that is unnecessary. If Gene properly level matches these amplifiers, even if the listener knows which amp they're listening to, they still won't hear a difference from one component to the next. If they do, it's because one is louder than the other...
Nobody said it will be. So, it has no real meaning.
How do you know bias will not tell them that there is a difference? It is a sighted test, useless even if levels are matched, period. Bias is not controlled for, has no meaning.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Six trials is just not enough for statistical analysis. Should do 16 or better yet, 20 trials.
Hopefully the amps do not show any visible signs that they are in fact in play at any one time.
I know 20+ trials would be great. But I don't know if Gene or anyone else is willing to do that many. 6 is better than 1, though.

No. You cannot know which amp is playing at any time or it is not valid, period, no matter what else you have done. Nothing wrong with knowing which amps you are comparing though just not which one you are listening to. That is the whole idea of a DBT.
I agree 100%. It fascinates me how people don't understand or agree with that. If you know EXACTLY which amp you are LISTENING to, you have introduced BIAS. Simple as that. You cannot know which amp you are actively listening to!

If you tell people, "Okay, this amp is the $100,000 amp you are listening to", that is an unfair bias right there. :D

It's no different than saying, "This is the $200,000 KEF Muon speakers you are listening to!" :eek:
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
I know 20+ trials would be great. But I don't know if Gene or anyone else is willing to do that many. 6 is better than 1, though.



I agree 100%. It fascinates me how people don't understand or agree with that. If you know EXACTLY which amp you are LISTENING to, you have introduced BIAS. Simple as that. You cannot know which amp you are actively listening to!

If you tell people, "Okay, this amp is the $100,000 amp you are listening to", that is an unfair bias right there. :D

It's no different than saying, "This is the $200,000 KEF Muon speakers you are listening to!" :eek:

The whole sighted test bias argument is a bit overstated in my experience. I've seen plenty of very biased "blind" tests that were a lot less valid then well controlled "sighted" tests. Anytime you precondition a listener by either bragging of a brand, price or what they'd expect to hear will undoubtedly bias their perceptions of the products. However, if the listener doesn't know brand, or price and you don't tell them which amp is playing, then there is NO reason to do the test blind.

I've found when I bring in unexperienced listeners that don't know brands, they don't even care which speaker they are listening too. I can't tell you how many times I've had listeners prefer the uglier, less prestigious brand in a sighted test. Don't let all of the DBT jargon some manufacturers like to throw around "Bias" you against controlled sighted tests. Most companies that claim to run DBT's never actually do. At best they run a SBT and they usually use their own listening panel and never disclose the resultant familiarity bias in those cases.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The whole sighted test bias argument is a bit overstated in my experience.
I don't think the science community would agree with you on this at all. But then, I have no standing in that community.;) Not sure how to respond about your experience though.
I've seen plenty of very biased "blind" tests that were a lot less valid then well controlled "sighted" tests. Anytime you precondition a listener by either bragging of a brand, price or what they'd expect to hear will undoubtedly bias their perceptions of the products. However, if the listener doesn't know brand, or price and you don't tell them which amp is playing, then there is NO reason to do the test blind.
Well, that would depend on what you are after from that test. Credible audible difference, then, again, that community would totally disagree with you on it. I cannot speak to those other blind tests you speak of though.



I've found when I bring in unexperienced listeners that don't know brands, they don't even care which speaker they are listening too. I can't tell you how many times I've had listeners prefer the uglier, less prestigious brand in a sighted test. Don't let all of the DBT jargon some manufacturers like to throw around "Bias" you against controlled sighted tests.
I don't listen to manufacturers but do listen to respected researchers in the filed. I know you have mentioned Toole once or twice in the past;), ask him about the validity of 'any' sighted test in discovering small differences in audio components. J. Johnson another one who is well known in some circles, long time researcher at AT&T I believe, then Microsoft would be another interesting input on this.
http://home.comcast.net/~retired_old_jj/

Most companies that claim to run DBT's never actually do. At best they run a SBT and they usually use their own listening panel and never disclose the resultant familiarity bias in those cases.
Again, I have no idea how well those companies run their testing, so I cannot comment.
 
Last edited:
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I know 20+ trials would be great. But I don't know if Gene or anyone else is willing to do that many. 6 is better than 1, though.
...
Well, if we are to quibble about trial numbers, I will accept 9 correct guesses out of 10 trials at the minimum.;)
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The whole sighted test bias argument is a bit overstated in my experience.
Honestly, you don't need to see which is playing however. Just not even a concern. Just toss the amps into a rack and close the door. The reason for removing the amps from sight is not only to take away any bias, it's to give the endeavor credibility. You don't do it you don't have it.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
The whole sighted test bias argument is a bit overstated in my experience. I've seen plenty of very biased "blind" tests that were a lot less valid then well controlled "sighted" tests. Anytime you precondition a listener by either bragging of a brand, price or what they'd expect to hear will undoubtedly bias their perceptions of the products. However, if the listener doesn't know brand, or price and you don't tell them which amp is playing, then there is NO reason to do the test blind.

I've found when I bring in unexperienced listeners that don't know brands, they don't even care which speaker they are listening too. I can't tell you how many times I've had listeners prefer the uglier, less prestigious brand in a sighted test. Don't let all of the DBT jargon some manufacturers like to throw around "Bias" you against controlled sighted tests. Most companies that claim to run DBT's never actually do. At best they run a SBT and they usually use their own listening panel and never disclose the resultant familiarity bias in those cases.
If the listener doesn't know brand, or price and you don't tell them which amp is playing, then there is NO reason to do the test blind… that is exactly what a blind test is.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I've seen plenty of very biased "blind" tests that were a lot less valid then well controlled "sighted" tests.
True.

But if Audioholics were to perform a blinded test, it would be extremely valid and unequivocally more valid than any unblinded audio tests on earth. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
True.

But if Audioholics were to perform a blinded test, it would be extremely valid and unequivocally more valid than any unblinded audio tests on earth. :D
Agree, as long as the person in charge of setting up and conducting such tests are unbiased, with no preconceptions whatsoever. I wonder who the person would be?:D If we are talking about credibility, perhaps get someone from the outside, someone who is experienced in such tests but have no experience/opinions in hifi equipment. Not me though.:D
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Agree, as long as the person in charge of setting up and conducting such tests are unbiased, with no preconceptions whatsoever. I wonder who the person would be?:D If we are talking about credibility, perhaps get someone from the outside, someone who is experienced in such tests but have no experience/opinions in hifi equipment. Not me though.:D
I have a friend that holds two PhD's. One in Psychology and another in Higher Education Administration. I believe he also holds a masters in Statistics and done several Quant and Qualitative studies.

He would fit the bill to a T to design a credible test.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
If the listener doesn't know brand, or price and you don't tell them which amp is playing, then there is NO reason to do the test blind… that is exactly what a blind test is.
Agreed and that is how I would run it.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I think there's some confusion here about what blind testing is and when it should be used.

For the simple purpose of comparing two different amplifiers, a simple sighted test is good enough. As long as the switching between devices is rapid, and the volume levels are matched closely, sighted testing can readily answer the question whether one sounds different or if one is preferred over the other. It will be simple, as long as there really is a noticeable difference in sound. And (this is important) it will be good enough if you don't intend to make the results public.

If two different amplifiers sound similar enough that people can't readily hear any difference, and if you want make the results public, you need to do blind testing and to pay some attention to statistics. If you ignore this, and publish the results, you are setting yourself up for intense criticism from all sides in the great debate. If enough tests are done to satisfy standard statistics, it will possible to say that listeners could not hear differences. This is a more difficult conclusion to make than when people clearly hear differences.

A single blind test (SBT) is good enough for this purpose. Double blind tests (DBT) are rarely ever required in the world of medical clinical trials, and they are certainly not twice as good as a SBT :). Imagine a clinical trial comparing an experimental drug to a placebo. In a SBT, the patients would not know if they are getting the trial drug or a placebo, but the medical staff do know. And in a DBT the patients and the medical staff are kept from knowing. If the trial requires that medical staff see the patients on a regular basis for a longer period of time, over several weeks or longer, then there might be a good reason for a DBT over a SBT. I can't see how this would apply to listening tests of amplifiers or speakers, which will take place in one day. Single blind testing should be good enough.

Statistics. Ugh! This is a subject worth entire academic departments, and I can't possibly deal with it adequately here. To decide how many repetitions of a listening test are enough, you must have an idea (from prior testing) just what percentage of listeners might hear a difference when there is a real difference. If two amps sound so similar that roughly 50% of listeners say they can hear a difference, you have to also ask how many hear a difference when both amps are identical. If that is also 50%, you will have to raise the bar pretty high before you can conclude that people really can hear differences. Once have an idea about that, then you need to look up statistics books and read all about what 95% confidence intervals mean :D. Then we can talk about how many trial repetitions are needed to make valid conclusions.

I could go on and on about this (I have probably lost readers by now :(). But I want to make it clear that I agree with Gene that simple sighted tests are appealingly simple, and easy to do when differences are easy to hear. But if you want to convince the doubters in this world, you better pay attention to blind testing and statistical significance.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Agree, as long as the person in charge of setting up and conducting such tests are unbiased, with no preconceptions whatsoever. ..
There is no such person on the planet:confused: that is why testing is done double blind if one want good results. Unless, he is not present during a test or in contact with the subject between trials, then it is a DBT and the tester's bias is not relevant.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I think there's some confusion here about what blind testing is and when it should be used.

For the simple purpose of comparing two different amplifiers, a simple sighted test is good enough. As long as the switching between devices is rapid, and the volume levels are matched closely, sighted testing can readily answer the question whether one sounds different or if one is preferred over the other. It will be simple, as long as there really is a noticeable difference in sound. And (this is important) it will be good enough if you don't intend to make the results public.

...
If the testing is for your own content, not public consumption, who really needs to do any testing.;) Unless, you want a meaningful result yourself.:D
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Irv's law of audio DBTs: If you can't discern any differences in a sighted test, a DBT will reveal no evidence of discerned differences either.

Since I dislike participating in DBTs, I would always precede a DBT with a sighted test, to potentially save a waste of time and effort.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
There is no such person on the planet:confused: that is why testing is done double blind if one want good results. Unless, he is not present during a test or in contact with the subject between trials, then it is a DBT and the tester's bias is not relevant.
I agree, but Gene is not going to do a DBT so I am trying to suggest an alternate way to add a little more credibility to this eventuality.
 

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