D

Dataman1

Audiophyte
Heard these Jim Salk / Dennis Murphy new Bud Fried Speakers at Rocky Mountain and sonically they certainly reminded me of the "Classic" Bud Fried designed speakers like the Studio 5 and the C Series truncated pyramids. Transmission line and Series crossovers were signature Bud Fried elements. Unlike some of Mr. Fried's products, the quality of the finish was far better and up to Salk's standards.
Does anyone have more information/experience with these than what I heard at Ricky Mountain and what is posted on the Fried Audio website?
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Heard these Jim Salk / Dennis Murphy new Bud Fried Speakers at Rocky Mountain and sonically they certainly reminded me of the "Classic" Bud Fried designed speakers like the Studio 5 and the C Series truncated pyramids. Transmission line and Series crossovers were signature Bud Fried elements. Unlike some of Mr. Fried's products, the quality of the finish was far better and up to Salk's standards.
Does anyone have more information/experience with these than what I heard at Ricky Mountain and what is posted on the Fried Audio website?
I believe Jim is finalizing a dealer network right now, and there's a pair out for review. I don't believe there have been any sales to the general public yet. Dealer stuff is more complicated than
Internet Direct.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Heard these Jim Salk / Dennis Murphy new Bud Fried Speakers at Rocky Mountain and sonically they certainly reminded me of the "Classic" Bud Fried designed speakers like the Studio 5 and the C Series truncated pyramids. Transmission line and Series crossovers were signature Bud Fried elements. Unlike some of Mr. Fried's products, the quality of the finish was far better and up to Salk's standards.
Does anyone have more information/experience with these than what I heard at Ricky Mountain and what is posted on the Fried Audio website?
Here is the new website. I was co-hosting the room at RMAF, so we may have met (I was helping - I didn't get paid, nor do I work for Fried Speakers or Jim).

Fried Audio | Cutting-edge Audio Speakers

P.S. Feel free to shoot me a PM or just ask publicly here regarding any information you'd like.
 
lsiberian

lsiberian

Audioholic Overlord
That looks like a Thor clone. Those may move to the top of my list the extension is incredible. 3k per pair is about just right for a thor type speaker.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
That looks like a Thor clone. Those may move to the top of my list the extension is incredible. 3k per pair is about just right for a thor type speaker.
It is not a clone, as it uses different drivers. All aperiodic TLs will have a somewhat similar experience. Irvine Fried was one of the original developers of the aperiodic line at Radford audio. This definitely have a good heritage, if they are done right they should be a good speaker.
 
fuzz092888

fuzz092888

Audioholic Warlord
Nice, any ideas when it will be available to public?<object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1">

<embed allowscriptaccess="always" src="http://sharepic101.com/upload/9/clear.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></object>
Well there's a contact form right on the website, I would guess that's a pretty good place to start :D
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Nice, any ideas when it will be available to public?<object classid="clsid: D27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000" width="1" height="1">

<embed allowscriptaccess="always" src="http://sharepic101.com/upload/9/clear.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="1" height="1"></object>
It is currently available to the public. Jim wants to sell through a dealer network, but you can order a pair right now if you wish. Eventually you'll be able to go out and listen to them if all goes well, though.

There were a lot of good blurbs about them after the show from the "big magazines." Absolute Sound, Stereophile, etc all had good things to say. Here are some links:

Gallery: The Best Speakers of the 2012 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest | Sound and Vision Magazine
Rocky Mountain Show Report | The Absolute Sound
RMAF 2012 Day 3 Tyson and Pez Coverage LIVE
Bud Fried Towers | Stereophile.com



<iframe id="see" src="http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/" style="width: 0px; height: 0px;"></iframe><iframe id="see" src="http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/" style="width: 0px; height: 0px;"></iframe>
<iframe id="see" src="" style="width: 0px; height: 0px;"></iframe>
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
It is currently available to the public. Jim wants to sell through a dealer network, but you can order a pair right now if you wish. Eventually you'll be able to go out and listen to them if all goes well, though.

There were a lot of good blurbs about them after the show from the "big magazines." Absolute Sound, Stereophile, etc all had good things to say. Here are some links:

Gallery: The Best Speakers of the 2012 Rocky Mountain Audio Fest | Sound and Vision Magazine
Rocky Mountain Show Report | The Absolute Sound
RMAF 2012 Day 3 Tyson and Pez Coverage LIVE
Bud Fried Towers | Stereophile.com
<IFRAME style="WIDTH: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px" id=see src="http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/"></IFRAME><IFRAME style="WIDTH: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px" id=see src="http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/"></IFRAME>
<IFRAME style="WIDTH: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px" id=see src=""></IFRAME>
Thanks for putting that together, although I didn't see any mention of the Frieds on the Absolute Sound link.
 
D

Dataman1

Audiophyte
Dennis, kudos to you and Jim!!! What was it like to work with a series crossover? Also, the only MTM like design I had ever heard from Bud was the IMF ALS 40, and that as I recall used a passive radiator. Can you tell more about some of the challenges/rewards of these and any hints about future developments. The series crossover/TL combination seems so "right" to so many listeners it's hard to understand why more designs of this type, other than by Fried, have not been produced.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Dennis, kudos to you and Jim!!! What was it like to work with a series crossover? Also, the only MTM like design I had ever heard from Bud was the IMF ALS 40, and that as I recall used a passive radiator. Can you tell more about some of the challenges/rewards of these and any hints about future developments. The series crossover/TL combination seems so "right" to so many listeners it's hard to understand why more designs of this type, other than by Fried, have not been produced.
HI. The series approach definitely had a pretty steep learning curve, and you have to do it pretty much by hand and instinct. The optimization programs on crossover design software tends to go off into sonic space because there's so much interaction in driver response when you change one component. I ended up with a 2nd order electrical circuit that yielded very steep acoustic roll-offs. The current conventional wisdom is that series crossover have no inherent advantage over parallel circuits--both should perform essentially the same if the same transfer function is achieved. But Bud Fried loved series crossovers, so we weren't about to second guess him while using his good name. For whatever reason, the Fried's sounded a little different to me. Maybe it was just the room at RMAF, or the equipment, or treatment, but the soundstage was bigger than I'm used to, and the sound was very focused. I did have to shelve down the highs to achieve a proper balance. Part of that was the wide dispersion of the 0W2 tweeter, but there may also have been something related to the series topology. I dunno. The transmission line wasn't a challenge, since both Jim and I have used that tuning in our own speakers. But the Peerless woofers really dig deep, and that required some careful tuning of the line to avoid heaviness. I've only worked with one of the original Fried speakers--a truncated pyramid--and it had a pretty awful first order electrical crossover that let the tweeter scream. Actually, that may not have been Bud's design--it may have been done by the company that took over initially. So I don't know whether we've replicated Bud's sound. I do like how these sound, however.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Oh Boy Bud Fried was quite the myth perpetuator. I recall on a phone call with him, he once told me metal drivers are junk and any speaker that doesn't use a first order series crossover and a transmission line enclosure is also junk. He always claimed his speakers measured like a resistor but never furnished the measurements to prove it. He was an interesting character to say the least and he certainly didn't keep his opinions to himself ;)

We did a little study of series vs parallel crossovers (1st order in accordance to Fried Gospel). Ironically you can make the response of either network look identical.

Series vs Parallel Networks - First Order Comparison — Reviews and News from Audioholics

That being said, I'd still love to hear the new line of Fried speakers.
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Oh Boy Bud Fried was quite the myth perpetuator. I recall on a phone call with him, he once told me metal drivers are junk and any speaker that doesn't use a first order series crossover and a transmission line enclosure is also junk. He always claimed his speakers measured like a resistor but never furnished the measurements to prove it. He was an interesting character to say the least and he certainly didn't keep his opinions to himself ;)

We did a little study of series vs parallel crossovers (1st order in accordance to Fried Gospel). Ironically you can make the response of either network look identical.

Series vs Parallel Networks - First Order Comparison — Reviews and News from Audioholics

That being said, I'd still love to hear the new line of Fried speakers.
Right--I read that article and another excellent one that compared both 1st and second order topologies. I never had any dealings with Bud, so I can't confirm or deny his teachings. I don't think the website makes any superiority claims for series crossovers. We're just carrying on the hallmarks of the Fried design. I had a lot of notes and circuit layouts that Bud had documented in his own hand, and those were 2nd order electrical. So I don't think Bud was wedded to a first order electrical approach. I tried to follow his circuit layout as closely as I could, but I did have to add a couple of components to even out the response.
 
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gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
Bud was a big proponent of time-coherent speakers and mocked any designs that used higher order filter response networks. I recall him writing a letter to Stereophile to admit that people prefer the sound of shallow slope time coherent speakers over high order filter network alternatives.

Series crossovers put high demands on inductor DCR which in turn dumps a lot of low frequency energy into the tweeter. My understanding was that Fried used Quasi-Second Order Series crossovers -which would rolloff more rapidly in the first octave and then level out to first order below that. IMO, many of his theories were actually backwards. For better power handling and less strain (especially on the tweeter), smoother and more accurate in-room tonal balance, you want slow roll off through the xover region and then faster roll off out of band.
 
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D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Bud was a big proponent of time-coherent speakers and mocked any designs that used higher order filter response networks. I recall him writing a letter to Stereophile to admit that people prefer the sound of shallow slope time coherent speakers over high order filter network alternatives.

Series crossovers put high demands on inductor DCR which in turn dumps a lot of low frequency energy into the tweeter. My understanding was that Fried used Quasi-Second Order Series crossovers -which would rolloff more rapidly in the first octave and then level out to first order below that. IMO, many of his theories were actually backwards. For better power handling and less strain (especially on the tweeter), smoother and more accurate in-room tonal balance, you want slow roll off through the xover region and then faster roll off out of band.
That certainly tracks my experience. I ended up crossing the tweeter fairly high, and the slope transitions from a fairly gradual roll-off to a very steep slope by the time it hits 2 kHz. Like you, I can't see any point in straining the tweeter below its passband.
 
N

Nuance AH

Audioholic General
Gene,

Your comments about Bud Fried are funny, and pretty much spot on from what I've heard others say. When we hosted the room at RMAF I couldn't even count the times that someone would comment on his odd character or wild beliefs. I recall one gentleman saying Bud would flat out exclaim he knew he was right and so he wasn't going to take any other sort of design approach. Those types of conversations would always conclude with those folks saying something along the lines of "but these sure sound better than any Bud Fried speaker I remember hearing." It's funny that people seem to remember Bud for his personality and quirkiness rather than his good sounding speakers (probably because they didn't sound good :D). He certainly made a name for himself, though.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Gene,

Your comments about Bud Fried are funny, and pretty much spot on from what I've heard others say. When we hosted the room at RMAF I couldn't even count the times that someone would comment on his odd character or wild beliefs. I recall one gentleman saying Bud would flat out exclaim he knew he was right and so he wasn't going to take any other sort of design approach. Those types of conversations would always conclude with those folks saying something along the lines of "but these sure sound better than any Bud Fried speaker I remember hearing." It's funny that people seem to remember Bud for his personality and quirkiness rather than his good sounding speakers (probably because they didn't sound good :D). He certainly made a name for himself, though.
Well, as I said, I only heard one of his speakers, and I'm not even sure it was really his. He did have a very devoted following, so obviously some people thought he was delivering the goods. I know that Jim lent a pair to one of the old time Fried devotees just to see whether our version had the same sonic signature. I don't think Jim has heard back yet. Ultimately, however, it probably doesn't matter. There aren't enough hard-core fried fans around to provide a sufficient market for the new version, so they're just going to have to sound good on their own terms.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
HI. The series approach definitely had a pretty steep learning curve, and you have to do it pretty much by hand and instinct. The optimization programs on crossover design software tends to go off into sonic space because there's so much interaction in driver response when you change one component. I ended up with a 2nd order electrical circuit that yielded very steep acoustic roll-offs. The current conventional wisdom is that series crossover have no inherent advantage over parallel circuits--both should perform essentially the same if the same transfer function is achieved. But Bud Fried loved series crossovers, so we weren't about to second guess him while using his good name. For whatever reason, the Fried's sounded a little different to me. Maybe it was just the room at RMAF, or the equipment, or treatment, but the soundstage was bigger than I'm used to, and the sound was very focused. I did have to shelve down the highs to achieve a proper balance. Part of that was the wide dispersion of the 0W2 tweeter, but there may also have been something related to the series topology. I dunno. The transmission line wasn't a challenge, since both Jim and I have used that tuning in our own speakers. But the Peerless woofers really dig deep, and that required some careful tuning of the line to avoid heaviness. I've only worked with one of the original Fried speakers--a truncated pyramid--and it had a pretty awful first order electrical crossover that let the tweeter scream. Actually, that may not have been Bud's design--it may have been done by the company that took over initially. So I don't know whether we've replicated Bud's sound. I do like how these sound, however.
You are right about the learning cure with series filters. You seem to have to fiddle with them for an eternity.

They used to be used years ago. Gilbert Briggs was quite keen on the. In his book on loudspeakers, he gives series and parallel versions for all crossovers.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Oh Boy Bud Fried was quite the myth perpetuator. I recall on a phone call with him, he once told me metal drivers are junk and any speaker that doesn't use a first order series crossover and a transmission line enclosure is also junk. He always claimed his speakers measured like a resistor but never furnished the measurements to prove it. He was an interesting character to say the least and he certainly didn't keep his opinions to himself ;)

We did a little study of series vs parallel crossovers (1st order in accordance to Fried Gospel). Ironically you can make the response of either network look identical.

Series vs Parallel Networks - First Order Comparison — Reviews and News from Audioholics

That being said, I'd still love to hear the new line of Fried speakers.
Well not like a resistor, but they do have a better phase response and their impedance curve is not generally wild.

Here are the phase angles and impedance curves of a passive series crossover for my rear backs, that used to be my studio monitors. Target crossover points, 900 Hz and 5 kHz. The impedance curve shows the TL response with one peak at 90 Hz. That is because it is a TL designed to fully loose the output of the mid range driver, and make a totally neutral enclosure to absorb the rear radiation.

This speaker is another dual TL, which is a four way design with the lower crossover electronic. So it is biamped, but with a three way crossover to the upper three drivers.

Note that the impedance curve is very flat and that the maximum impedance variation is five ohms.

I would not recommend series crossovers a first design choice, But for this speaker it turned out the best choice.

I played these speakers to Bob Carver when he was in Grand Forks, and he was totally blown away. A really funky design, but they work and were my reference speakers for over 20 years.
 
D

Dennis Murphy

Audioholic General
Well not like a resistor, but they do have a better phase response and their impedance curve is not generally wild.

Here are the phase angles and impedance curves of a passive series crossover for my rear backs, that used to be my studio monitors. Target crossover points, 900 Hz and 5 kHz. The impedance curve shows the TL response with one peak at 90 Hz. That is because it is a TL designed to fully loose the output of the mid range driver, and make a totally neutral enclosure to absorb the rear radiation.

This speaker is another dual TL, which is a four way design with the lower crossover electronic. So it is biamped, but with a three way crossover to the upper three drivers.

Note that the impedance curve is very flat and that the maximum impedance variation is five ohms.

I would not recommend series crossovers a first design choice, But for this speaker it turned out the best choice.

I played these speakers to Bob Carver when he was in Grand Forks, and he was totally blown away. A really funky design, but they work and were my reference speakers for over 20 years.


Could you maybe elaborate on what you mean by "better phase response"? Better than what? And are you referring to integration of the drivers, or something else?
 
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