Almost time to buy a sub(s)! Need some guidence

[Rowdy S13]

The time has finally come (almost) where I can get a proper sub(s)!!! Now that I am so close, I am getting overwhelmed with options though. I am going to say right off the bat that I want SVS all the way. I know there are tons of other great options, but I want to stick to only SVS. Part of that is because I have lusted after an SVS Sub for so long its not even funny. The other reason is because it automatically cuts down the the insane amount of options and configurations that are out there. I don't think I am short changing myself sticking with only SVS either.

With that out of the way, lets talk room. I will have more exact measurements later today or tomorrow, but its large. The living room and dining room are open completely to each other and form an L shape. Both areas have a vaulted ceiling that is ~20' high. The living room area is probably 25' x 20', and the dining area is 11' (I measured that) x 20'. The kitchen is what creates the L shape in the area, and is open as well, but with a half wall on each side. The kitchen has a 9' ceiling, and is probably 14' x 20'. Above the kitchen is a loft area, so the stairway, upstairs hallway, and loft are all open to this space. Downstairs the front entry way is also open to the space. Like I said I will have actual measurements, and pictures later today, but hopefully that gives you a general idea of the space.

There is two sides to this large space. One is since it is large I want a massive sub to fill it, BUT this is a townhouse and I have adjacent neighbors so I cant crank it to ear bleeding levels. Two I have adjacent neighbors now, but one day I will not and then I will be able to crank it to ear bleeding levels So I don't want to go so small that it doesn't fill the room, and I don't want to go so large that I wouldn't be able to use it at all. To me this sounds like a prime candidate for a two sub set up, but I am open to more or less.

The budget is $2,000 for now. I could push it if its justified, but I have lots of hobbies that cost a lot more than this one So that puts me in a PB13-ULTRA or down if go with a single sub. If I went with two subs I could do PB12-NSD or down. I can say that I really REALLY want an ULTRA, and have forever. I think the wife (and the wallet) would say that TWO of them may be a bit much. If I go with two subs then I really like the smaller sealed options. The SB12-NSD seems like it wont quite compare to the single ULTRA though. The biggest thing is it doesn't play as low, but how much does that matter? I realize that the PB12-NSD plays much lower, and the ported box will be better for the large area but its size makes it harder to justify two of them. Dual SB-13 ULTRA's would probably be the best of everything, but its over budget a fair amount. I could always get one now, and one later, but I think if I tried something like that the wife wouldn't go for it. I see the argument of "well we have only had one for this long, and isn't it good enough?". So that means I need to do it all in one shot

So now you see my conundrum, and that is a hard enough choice sticking with only one brand! So to me (right now) its between these options

Single PB13-ULTRA
Two SB12-NSD

What is everyone's opinions of those options, and what other configurations should I be looking at? Sorry for the long post, but I have been flipping this around in my head for months! Thanks in advance for the help!


Sean

 

[Steve81]

The SB12-NSD seems like it wont quite compare to the single ULTRA though. The biggest thing is it doesn't play as low, but how much does that matter?

The SB12 won't compare at all to the PB13U down low, which is fairly important in a larger space. In a smaller room, one might reasonably expect room gain to lift the low end a bit to even things out. In that room...not so much. One possibility that pops into my mind:

LEGATO - SVS

I understand that it is
A. Ugly as sin to most.
B. A tad over budget.

OTOH, you're getting two fairly high output subwoofers with a small footprint that could conceivably be hidden by a couple of large house plants.

 

[Steve81]

The SB12 won't compare at all to the PB13U down low, which is fairly important in a larger space.

Just for perspective: at 32Hz (which is not an inordinately low frequency where one might expect little to no energy in real world content), per Josh Ricci's measurements of both, the PB13 will have a 14.5dB advantage over the SB12. IOW, you'd need to have a stack of 5 SB12s to compare to the output capability of the PB13 here.

 

[j_garcia]

PSA XS-30 or two? Rythmik F15HP or FV15HP if sealed isn't a requirement.

 

[Rowdy S13]

So at least I was right in thinking that two SB12-NSD's wouldn't really compare to a single PB13-ULTRA. The LAGATO is an option, but even I don't really like the idea of it though. That means it will be a very hard sell on the wife. So staying with the theory of rather having two sealed subs in place of one ported sub, how does two SB13-UTRA's compare to a single PB13-ULTRA? Basically I don't like the looks of the ported NSD's which I know is being really nit picky.

Sean

 

[Steve81]

So staying with the theory of rather having two sealed subs in place of one ported sub, how does two SB13-UTRA's compare to a single PB13-ULTRA?

My best guess is that a single SB13U will perform on par with the PB13U in sealed mode (it will probably deliver a little more output since the driver is optimized for its enclosure though). At 32Hz in that instance, with a pair of non-colocated SB13Us, you'd probably be at rough parity around 32Hz, with the advantage of FR smoothing. Down at 20Hz, I'd expect the PB13U to have a sizable advantage in output capability.

 

[Rowdy S13]

Well then I guess the question would be along the lines of how low is low enough? Like I said, in a perfect world two PB13-ULTRA's would be in there so I would have the advantages of dual subs, and the power/low output of the big boy. Since that option really isn't an option for me (cant really swing $4k on subs) then I will have to compromise somewhere, but where?


Sean

 

[j_garcia]

If those are the choices, I'd still opt for the SB13 Ultra, simply because I prefer sealed.

The XS30 is also sealed and will give you more output than a single driver unit but not nearly as much as duals. You aren't short changing yourself, but SVS don't have the same kind of clear advantage in this realm that they did before.

POWER SOUND AUDIO — XS30

 

[Steve81]

Well then I guess the question would be along the lines of how low is low enough?

Depends on who you ask; some guys are out there busy chasing extension into the single Hz range; others are satisfied with 20-25Hz. A lot of it depends on the content. If you've got the WOTW Pods scene on a continuous loop, you're going to want a lot more extension than if your tastes wander more towards Casablanca and Citizen Kane.

I will have to compromise somewhere, but where?

I know you like SVS (I'm a fan to be sure, and I own a PB13U myself), but one possibility would be a pair of Rythmik FV15HPs with the 550W amp. That would ring up to $2375 shipped, and each sub could hold its own fairly well one to one with the PB13. Of course, there is a price to pay the biggest being that the base finish is a vinyl wrap and the warranty is 7 years on the driver 2 on the amp vs 5 years comprehensive for the SVS.

 

[Steve81]

One other option I'll toss out is DIY (though really you won't have to do much of anything yourself if you don't want to).

My thought is a couple of these:
Dayton Audio RSS460HO-4 18" Reference HO Subwoofer 4 ohm 295-472

Plus one of these:
Crown XLS 2500 DriveCore Series Power Amplifier 245-506

would put you at $1100. Spend the rest to have a local cabinet maker build you a couple of attractive, well put together boxes and you could end up with a couple of these:
Data-Bass which wouldn't be anything to sneeze at.

If you're comfortable doing a bit of work on your own, a couple of these would do the job too: 4.5 cu ft Subwoofer box - Subwoofer Cabinets - Flat Packs DIY Sound Group
I'd just verify the cutout size with them.

 

[Rowdy S13]

OK, before I respond to everyone why don't I give everyone the actual room dimensions! I drew this up in CAD and its very close to real dimensions +/- about 2 inches.



So there is a little bit going on in that picture. First off that is our couch that we currently have, so we have to deal with that. The center is shown in a larger box which is the size of our current TV/Stand (the center will be on top). All of the speakers are the Aperion Versus Grand series dimensions, and the two subs (between the TV and the mains) are SVS SB13-ULTRA's. The box at the top left by itself is my fish tank in case anyone was wondering. The ceilings are actually 18' high, but above the living room area they slope down some. The speaker distances to the listening position aren't as far off as they may seem. I went to a point straight from the center speaker to the middle of the couch (I know that is too far forward) and the fronts were a little over 10', and the rear backs were a little under 12'. Figure the seating area is actually about a foot back from where I measured, and then they are very close to 11' all around.

OK that is getting pretty far off topic in this thread. Back to the BASS!!! I did a rendering with the PB13-ULTRA and it takes up a lot of space I could move it around and I am sure I could work with it, but the two SB ULTRA's seem to work a little better. I really like the idea of running the sealed subs mostly because of the big size advantage. It also means that I could run two of them, which I think will be a real advantage to me in this space. As I said though getting two of the SB ULTRA's is out of the initial budget by a good amount. I am thinking that I can get one right away and add in the second down the road.

I will respond more later when I get home. I will also have some pictures of the space to go along with the drawing.



Thanks,
Sean

 

[j_garcia]

Sure looks like AutoCAD

 

[Rowdy S13]

It is most defiantly Auto CAD LT I am self taught, so its not perfect, but it gets the point across! Also I am not sure why it turned it long ways.

So the more I am thinking about it, I think the SB13-ULTRA is the winner. I can get one right away (once we move), and get a second one some time later on. They will fit the space better, and should have more than enough output for now. Keep in mind I am coming from no sub at all, so this will be a HUGE step up for me. I also want to get all new speakers, and sooner or later a new TV. This is all on top of buying our first house! Man this is getting overwhelming!!


Sean