Best $1000 (or cheaper) Musical Receiver (Pre/Amp)?

[PENG]

Thanks for your help fellas. As of now, I'm leaning towards a refurbed Marantz 5006 for $499...the 5007 is out of stock and the only benefit I can note is 4K upconversion (not needed) and a color GUI. I'm hoping the "audiophile" label of the Marantz puts it a half-step above a comparable Denon.

Just keep in mind as of now, Denon still has the best, most expensive separate system of the two. The Denon flag ship pair (ADTG has a pair) costs more than double that of the Marantz flag ship. However, if you feel better due to influence from those hearsayer comments, then go for it. I own products from both, and like them both equally.

Separates tend to be better built, for a lot more money they should be, both AVRs are generally reliable too. I have owned no fewer than 4 Denons, 1 Yamaha and 1 Marantz separate pair, gave 3 away and sold 1 but as far as I know they are all running in top conditions, the oldest ones are 8 years old, so for me reliability is not an issue at all. Having said that, if you are going for refurbished unit, make sure you buy from a reputable place who will standby their products and offer a reasonable warranty. Typically if they don't fail within the first 90 days, they would last for years.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm hoping the "audiophile" label of the Marantz puts it a half-step above a comparable Denon.

Denon has a $7500 pre-pro. Marantz has a $3600 pre-pro. So which one is the "audiophile label" here?

But even if Marantz is the "audiophile label", the only half-step you'll gain is the label itself, not the actual sound quality.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Oh, yeah, I would never buy a refurbished complex electronic. I would buy an "open box" item & get the full manufacturer warranty. For example, an open box Denon 3312 for $500 will get you the 3 yr full Denon warranty.

Those who have been burned by refurbished items will hate refurbish. Those who are more lucky will vouch for refurbish. I've been burned a few times.

 

[PENG]

I've been burned a few times.

By Denon (reburb dealers) right??

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

By Denon (reburb dealers) right??

Yup. By Denon AUTHORIZED Refurbish dealers.

 

[Stump909]

Haha, at this rate it'll take me another month to decide. I swear this is the only industry where a general consensus can never exist on any one product...I bought the Sierra's because the praise they generated was higher than I normally see.

It blows my mind no brand has stepped up at the best (or best bang for the buck) in terms of audio processing and amplification. It seems there are measurements for most electronic products that can objectively place rank on competing products, but not audio. Sound seems to have too many variables (subjective and objective). If only we could quantify and measure an amp or speaker's ability to and produce accurate soundstage and detail from the source. I'm probably over-thinking it, but once you get a taste of high-fidelity all that's left is to see how far it can be pushed haha.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Haha, at this rate it'll take me another month to decide. I swear this is the only industry where a general consensus can never exist on any one product...I bought the Sierra's because the praise they generated was higher than I normally see.

It blows my mind no brand has stepped up at the best (or best bang for the buck) in terms of audio processing and amplification. It seems there are measurements for most electronic products that can objectively place rank on competing products, but not audio. Sound seems to have too many variables (subjective and objective). If only we could quantify and measure an amp or speaker's ability to and produce accurate soundstage and detail from the source. I'm probably over-thinking it, but once you get a taste of high-fidelity all that's left is to see how far it can be pushed haha.

Electronics are simple in terms of measurements. It's very objective. A $1000 AVR w/ SNR of -110dB & Crosstalk of -90dB will "perform" like a $20,000 pre-pro with a SNR of -120dB & Crosstalk of -100dB. A $300 amp that outputs 300wpc will "perform" like a $20,000 amp that outputs 300wpc. Double-blinded studies have proven that. But some audiophiles are not convinced of this. They believe amps & pre-pros have a sound of their own.

Speakers are not so easy to quantify. Their measurements don't tell the whole story. You can theorectically spot weaknesses and compromises in their measurements, but that does not guarantee how they really sound. It's very subjective.

 

[PENG]

A $300 amp that outputs 300wpc will "perform" like a $20,000 amp that outputs 300wpc. Double-blinded studies have proven that. But some audiophiles are not convinced of this. They believe amps & pre-pros have a sound of their own.

It did take me a long time and comparison listening for me to be convinced of such claims. Having said that, I would still double your $300 point, and that would be for a 2 channel unit only. I would also quality that by adding, as long as the amps are designed for accuracy, i.e. with no intentional coloration "designed/built in". So do, you know.

 

[Stump909]

Electronics are simple in terms of measurements. It's very objective. A $1000 AVR w/ SNR of -110dB & Crosstalk of -90dB will "perform" like a $20,000 pre-pro with a SNR of -120dB & Crosstalk of -100dB. A $300 amp that outputs 300wpc will "perform" like a $20,000 amp that outputs 300wpc. Double-blinded studies have proven that. But some audiophiles are not convinced of this. They believe amps & pre-pros have a sound of their own.

Speakers are not so easy to quantify. Their measurements don't tell the whole story. You can theorectically spot weaknesses and compromises in their measurements, but that does not guarantee how they really sound. It's very subjective.

But can you really trust the numbers the manufacturers provide? It seems every company has their own method of achieving the numbers in their data (I'm surprised nothing has been standardized). Would a sensible approach to this problem be a side by side comparison of the recievers' important stats (watts, S/N, crossover, dampening factor(?), distortion) and picking the one in my price range that has the best numbers overall? Any important stats I'm missing?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

But can you really trust the numbers the manufacturers provide? It seems every company has their own method of achieving the numbers in their data (I'm surprised nothing has been standardized). Would a sensible approach to this problem be a side by side comparison of the recievers' important stats (watts, S/N, crossover, dampening factor(?), distortion) and picking the one in my price range that has the best numbers overall? Any important stats I'm missing?

I was talking about actual 3rd party measurements like from Home Theater Magazine, Stereophile, AH, SVS, etc.

If you just compare the measurements/ numbers, the Yamaha RX-A (like 2010/2020, 1010/1020) are exceptionally good. For example, their crosstalk rival the ultra-expensive gears around -100dB.

But all these numbers are not really audible. You can't hear a difference between a XTalk of -100dB vs -70dB, SNR of -120dB vs -100, Damping of 1000 vs 100, THD of 0.0000001% vs 0.1%. Keep in mind that distortion from speakers are a lot worse than amps & preamps. So what if the specs from your pre-pro are the best ever? Will you notice if your speakers have a 5% distortion?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It did take me a long time and comparison listening for me to be convinced of such claims. Having said that, I would still double your $300 point, and that would be for a 2 channel unit only. I would also quality that by adding, as long as the amps are designed for accuracy, i.e. with no intentional coloration "designed/built in". So do, you know.

Always cooler to own more expensive and high-end built quality gears though.

I do use ATI amps and keep my 2 Crown XLS2500 amps in the closet for backup.

I wonder if anyone thinks, "Hmm, this ADTG tells everyone to use Crown amps and that all amps & AVR sound the same, but at the same time he uses the ATI AT3005 amp which retails like $4,000 and he uses the Denon AVP-A1 which retails $7500! "

But honestly based on my experience (which may be different from others) I do think all amps "sound the same" for most times and applications. But others may have different experiences that make them believe differently. I've also heard ultra-expensive Krell, Mark Levinson, Bryston, MAC, Classe, & Parasound Halo amps at dealers.

Well, actually since ATI makes amps for "most amp companies in North America", I've listened to "most amps made in North America".

 

[Stump909]

I was talking about actual 3rd party measurements like from Home Theater Magazine, Stereophile, AH, SVS, etc.

If you just compare the measurements/ numbers, the Yamaha RX-A (like 2010/2020, 1010/1020) are exceptionally good. For example, their crosstalk rival the ultra-expensive gears around -100dB.

But all these numbers are not really audible. You can't hear a difference between a XTalk of -100dB vs -70dB, SNR of -120dB vs -100, Damping of 1000 vs 100, THD of 0.0000001% vs 0.1%. Keep in mind that distortion from speakers are a lot worse than amps & preamps. So what if the specs from your pre-pro are the best ever? Will you notice if your speakers have a 5% distortion?

Haha, that was sort of the point I was getting at. We do have measurements for technical aspects of the receiver, but none for the "audible" qualities. We can't rank what sounds better just on its tech specs alone. I wish I could make a choice just off professional reviews, but it's hard to find a group that's covered more than just a handful of receivers. Then there's the credibility of the reviewers. Some of these folks sound like they've drank the kool-aid already, and others don't delve into the information I want the most (which is direct comparisons to other receivers). I just want accurate and detailed sound.... (if only for reassurance purposes).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

We can't rank what sounds better just on its tech specs alone.

Amps & preamps just amplify the signal. It is straightforward. They have to reproduce the signal from 20Hz-20kHz. And they do it extremely accurately like 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.0dB and THD < 0.01%.

Speakers are like 30Hz-20kHz +/- 3.0dB and THD > 0.1%. IOW, speakers are the weak link, not the preamps & amps.

So for amps & preamps, yes, we can tell which sounds better based on measurements alone.

 

[Stump909]

Amps & preamps just amplify the signal. It is straightforward. They have to reproduce the signal from 20Hz-20kHz. And they do it extremely accurately like 20Hz-20kHz +/- 0.0dB and THD < 0.01%.

Speakers are like 30Hz-20kHz +/- 3.0dB and THD > 0.1%. IOW, speakers are the weak link, not the preamps & amps.

So for amps & preamps, yes, we can tell which sounds better based on measurements alone.

In Direct mode maybe, but things like EQ and RC seem to have a range of effects on a receiver's ability to output a quality signal...right?

We don't have measurements that show a reciever/pro/amp's ability to reproduce an accurate soundstage, minute detail, or transparency (things I see mentioned all the time in reviews). If those are entirely dependent on the speakers, why bring it up to begin with? Sorry if I'm coming off as brash, but this entire industry just confuses me with its lack of consistency haha.

Edit: Maybe I'm asking the wrong question when asking "which brand is the best bang for the buck". Maybe I should be more specific? Is there a brand whose overall quality is affected the least by room correction/eq? I assume that's dependent on the quality of the circuitry?

Edit 2: Once I get to ~$800 range, would it be best just shell out the little extra for the Emotiva Pro/Amp combo (if only to calm the "what-ifs" in my head)?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

In Direct mode maybe, but things like EQ and RC seem to have a range of effects on a receiver's ability to output a quality signal...right?

Right. If you use RC, EQ, DSP/THX processing, then all bets are off.

 

[Grador]

We don't have measurements that show a reciever/pro/amp's ability to reproduce an accurate soundstage, minute detail, or transparency (things I see mentioned all the time in reviews). If those are entirely dependent on the speakers, why bring it up to begin with? Sorry if I'm coming off as brash, but this entire industry just confuses me with its lack of consistency haha.

They bring this up because there is an entire industry based off it and a group of people who spend a few hundred dollars a foot for speaker cable. How exciting would an amp review be if it said "and this amp, just like all the others, was perfectly acceptable?"

 

[ski2xblack]

In Direct mode maybe, but things like EQ and RC seem to have a range of effects on a receiver's ability to output a quality signal...right?

You're now talking about intentional manipulation of the signal, which is a different topic. Yes, room correction can have a range of resulting settings, which you can disengage or manipulate for your own particular implementation and taste. The trick is to choose speakers wisely (you did) and place them in the room appropriately so as to minimize the amount of eq/correction you need to apply in the first place.

We don't have measurements that show a reciever/pro/amp's ability to reproduce an accurate soundstage, minute detail, or transparency (things I see mentioned all the time in reviews). If those are entirely dependent on the speakers, why bring it up to begin with? Sorry if I'm coming off as brash, but this entire industry just confuses me with its lack of consistency haha.

The industry is marketing driven, a veritable cesspool of woo and magical thinking that defies empirical reality. And actually, we do have the measurements that will determine if an amp or pre-amp is transparent or not. Imaging/soundstage is more a function of source/recording, good speakers, and a well though out system layout. Low level detail is better served by turning off your HVAC system or other means of reducing ambient noise in your house during critical listening sessions.

 

[Stump909]

They bring this up because there is an entire industry based off it and a group of people who spend a few hundred dollars a foot for speaker cable. How exciting would an amp review be if it said "and this amp, just like all the others, was perfectly acceptable?"

Well...it would be exciting to me haha.

 

[Stump909]

You're now talking about intentional manipulation of the signal, which is a different topic. Yes, room correction can have a range of resulting settings, which you can disengage or manipulate for your own particular implementation and taste. The trick is to choose speakers wisely (you did) and place them in the room appropriately so as to minimize the amount of eq/correction you need to apply in the first place.

I guess this is the balance I'm looking for. I have fairly flat responding speakers, but I don't want room reflections impacting my sound (nor do I want correction degrading quality). My placement will be thoroughly researched, but that can only do so much in a small to mid-sized apartment living room (acoustic panels IMO are crazy overpriced). Since the Emotiva doesn't include correction past auto-setup and it has an adjustable 16-band EQ, would that plus an SPL meter give me the most "raw" adjusted signal? Can this be achieved through other means for less?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I doubt an Emotiva does a better job than a Denon 3312/ 4311 in the area of EQ/RC.