Revel reintroduces their $10,000 sealed 18" sub

[Irvrobinson]

It looks much improved. Now includes DSP and a neo magnet. They're claiming 115db of output, but they don't mention at what frequency they're talking about. Assuming a street price of about $7500, still expensive. It looks like a Velodyne DD18 Plus competitor at twice the price.

Revel Ultima2 Series Rhythm2 Powered Subwoofer | Revel

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Ultima2 line has Beryllium tweeter & titanium midrange & woofer.

I'm surprise the Sub does not have a titanium woofer, instead of an aluminum woofer.

 

[GlocksRock]

For as much as it costs, it should have a titanium woofer.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

Titanium is a great material, but, depends on the application. Might be a reason.

Kinda seems like just more of the same lol. Wow, another big subwoofer that uses brute force power and looks like something from the 70s.

 

[monkish54]

The Ultima2 line has Beryllium tweeter & titanium midrange & woofer.

I'm surprise the Sub does not have a titanium woofer, instead of an aluminum woofer.

There is very good reason for that!

First of all, this is why Revel uses Titanium:

Voecks: At Revel, we've had the luxury of being able to design drivers from scratch, and not have to settle for what I can purchase from other manufacturers. That allows me to make the ideal tradeoffs. Say I want a driver to extend well above the crossover point, as well as have excellent power handling and avoid dynamic compression. If I had to use the typical lossy cone available in OEM drivers, it had to be well damped so breakup was not apparent. In the past, I might have had to use Band-Aids to cover up the breakup problem.
Here at Revel we can get the extended upper range by designing our own driver with a lower-mass cone material: titanium. I want it to have good power handling, which usually means a heavier motor structure. Because the titanium does not have a low-frequency breakup mode, I can use a huge voice-coil and still have high-frequency extension.

For as much as it costs, it should have a titanium woofer.

I disagree. It would gain nothing from titanium and lose the cool properties of aluminum! Since cone breakup is completely nonexistent at subwoofer frequencies, they are free to use any material they want (they could use stone if they wanted to..although it would be a pretty insensitive driver)!

If one notices most heatsinks are made of Aluminum. Aluminum is unique in its low density and excellent heat absorption properties.

If one knows the basics of transducer design (which I'm sure we all know) when using a standard driver (dustcap) the voice coil former is coupled directly to the cone.

Since Revel uses Aluminum, the cone itself will draw much heat from the voice coil. This will allow louder volumes with less distortion. Is that not the goal of all subs? Loud volumes and little/no distortion?

Metal	Temperature - t - ([SUP]o[/SUP]F)	Thermal Conductivity - k - (Btu/(hr [SUP]o[/SUP]F ft))
Aluminum, pure	68 200 400	118 124 144
Titanium	68	11 - 13

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This is what happens to VC when they heat up:

Hot Stuff: Loudspeaker Voice-Coil Temperatures Page 2 | Stereophile.com

Drivers that don't have dustcaps are usually inverted domes. This is what revel uses for all but the tweeter. The VC is not attached to the cone which is why you don't need a dustcap. Instead you use a coupler.

Anyway, while I have little doubt this sub is the dog's bollocks, it would be outlandish for anyone to spend 10K on a sub.

2 reasons:

One: Funk Audio sells probably the best sub in the world for 2-3K.

Two: My sub (also made by Harman) can output 115db at 20hz without reaching xmax. The driver cost me $384.16, the MDF cost me $200 (Paul K. designed me a HUGE TL and I purchased double the MDF. The average enclosure would cost 50-$100 from my supplier), and the amp cost me $299.

 

[Nuance AH]

It looks much improved. Now includes DSP and a neo magnet. They're claiming 115db of output, but they don't mention at what frequency they're talking about. Assuming a street price of about $7500, still expensive.

Yeah, they only say output "down to below 20Hz," but they don't specify at what dB. The 115dB could be at 50Hz, so... I'll take a Funk Audio subwoofer utilizing the LMS5400 Ultra instead, thank you. Actually, for that price I'll take 5. As far as subwoofers go, DIY is king IMO. The reason I like Funk is because they'll custom build whatever you want, so while it's not DIY you can at least decide which components to use.

Two: My sub (also made by Harman) can output 115db at 20hz without reaching xmax. The driver cost me $384.16, the MDF cost me $200 (Paul K. designed me a HUGE TL and I purchased double the MDF. The average enclosure would cost 50-$100 from my supplier), and the amp cost me $299.

Yes, but is it pretty and does it come in a nice tight/small form factor? Nope. Different strokes for different folks. I imagine your TL will destroy the Revel subwoofer, but the latter wasn't designed to compete with a TL me thinks. Or maybe in Revel's mind is was. HA! Who knows.

 

[monkish54]

Yeah, they only say output "down to below 20Hz," but they don't specify at what dB. The 115dB could be at 50Hz, so... I'll take a Funk Audio subwoofer utilizing the LMS5400 Ultra instead, thank you. Actually, for that price I'll take 5. As far as subwoofers go, DIY is king IMO. The reason I like Funk is because they'll custom build whatever you want, so while it's not DIY you can at least decide which components to use.

The Funk 18.0 uses a driver better than the LMS 5400 (which is why I now call it the best sub in the world) for 2-3 thousand dollars. Even if there are subs that best it, I don't really see the necessity. That driver (both the LMS and Funk TSAD18v1) can play louder than I will ever want with little distortion.

The overall efficiency of the TSAD is higher than the LMS, allowing it to have more overall output with the same power

The power compression is lower on the TSAD, giving it better dynamics especially in the upper(over 40hz) bass. This is also compounded with the higher efficiency.

Inductance linearity, this I feel is a common design oversight with subwoofer drivers, as the inductance changes through the stroke of the cone this changes the impeadance curve even as low as ~40/50hz, which affects the frequency response, distortion and power required, from the amplifier(the amplifier is dealing with changing loads with every cone movement, and different changes at different frequencies).

 

[Nuance AH]

The Funk 18.0 uses a driver better than the LMS 5400 (which is why I now call it the best sub in the world) for 2-3 thousand dollars. Even if there are subs that best it, I don't really see the necessity. That driver (both the LMS and Funk TSAD18v1) can play louder than I will ever want or play with little distortion.

The TSAD driver right? Has anyone ever measured it to prove it bests the LMS 5400 Ultra? Regardless, I'd take either one over a $10,000 Revel subwoofer. Can you say overpriced? I'd love to see what the bracing on the cabinet looks like...

 

[monkish54]

I have not seen it measure, no. I trust what Nathan says in the above.

Even if he's a total bullshitter and it's simply on par with the LMS, it's still a HUGE win!

4.5” Aluminum voice coil
High energy Neodymium magnet structure
Dual Aluminum shorting rings for reduced distortion
Linear Inductance +/-5% through 3 p-p travel
-Resulting in very low distortion, and clean midbass.
Cast Aluminum frame
Anodized aluminum dust cap
Carbon fiber/paper composite cone
Tall profile treated foam surround
10” diameter spider
3” P-P excursion
Under spider venting
Vented Pole piece
Assembled with high temperature epoxies

VS

• High-temperature low eddy-current stainless steel voice coil former
• LMS motor technology, 2+2 ohm 4″ diameter dual voice coil
• 11″ linear spider suspension with large integral lead-wires
• 525 oz. magnet motor structure with large anti-flux-modulation shorting ring
• Tall profile XBR surround for 3″ peak-to-peak travel
• Large anti-flux-modulation shorting ring
• Single dish aircraft-grade aluminum alloy cone

Once can learn about inductance vs displacement, as well as many other driver measurements here:

http://medleysmusings.com/category/speaker-driver-tests/understanding-the-data/

 

[Irvrobinson]

...looks like something from the 70s.

You're kidding, right? There were no curved cabinets in the 70s, there were no 18" aluminum cone drivers, there were no neo drivers, there were no Class D amps, there was no DSP, there was no graphics interface for a computer. So tell me again how this is like something from the 70s?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Yeah, they only say output "down to below 20Hz," but they don't specify at what dB. The 115dB could be at 50Hz, so... I'll take a Funk Audio subwoofer utilizing the LMS5400 Ultra instead, thank you. Actually, for that price I'll take 5. As far as subwoofers go, DIY is king IMO. The reason I like Funk is because they'll custom build whatever you want, so while it's not DIY you can at least decide which components to use.


Yes, but is it pretty and does it come in a nice tight/small form factor? Nope. Different strokes for different folks. I imagine your TL will destroy the Revel subwoofer, but the latter wasn't designed to compete with a TL me thinks. Or maybe in Revel's mind is was. HA! Who knows.

Regarding your math... you can't have five powered 18.0s with the LMS5400 for the likely street price of the Revel. The 18.0 is $3234 shipped in the US. I don't know what Funk would want for the LMS driver, but I'd guess $350. Assuming a conservative street price of $7500 for the Revel you can have two 18.0s with the LMS driver, maybe.

As for DIY, Revel obviously isn't targeting the DIY market, they're targeting people that have an entire Revel system and want a sub that matches. IMHO, given that the Salon 2s are only $22K per pair at MSRP, I think they would do a lot better if they gave it an MSRP of $7500 and let dealers sell it for $6K, which is more line with the JL Audio and Velodyne competition.

 

[3db]

I would like to compare it to Paradigm's Signature Sub2 which is roughly the same cost as the Revel. Its good thing Audioholics is there becuase I would never be able to afford to compare the two.

Paradigm Signature Sub 2 Subwoofer Review Listening Session — Reviews and News from Audioholics

 

[Irvrobinson]

I would like to compare it to Paradigm's Signature Sub2 which is roughly the same cost as the Revel. Its good thing Audioholics is there becuase I would never be able to afford to compare the two.

Paradigm Signature Sub 2 Subwoofer Review Listening Session — Reviews and News from Audioholics

I'd place my bet on the SUB2. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't make the slightest bit of difference in my room, since I've yet to stress my DD18 Plus, and I think even the Revel has a good chance of beating the Velodyne, because it has a very similar driver and amplifier specs, but a larger cabinet volume.

 

[Nuance AH]

I have not seen it measure, no. I trust what Nathan says in the above.

Even if he's a total bullshitter and it's simply on par with the LMS, it's still a HUGE win!



VS




Once can learn about inductance vs displacement, as well as many other driver measurements here:

http://medleysmusings.com/category/speaker-driver-tests/understanding-the-data/

Specs are just that, and they don't necessarily reflect performance. With that said, Nathan knows his stuff, so I agree that it's hands down a winner if it's "only" (LOL) on par with the LMS5400 Ultra. Fact is we simply don't know...

Does Nathan sell just the TSAD driver, or is that privy to those who order a full subwoofer only?

Regarding your math... you can't have five powered 18.0s with the LMS5400 for the likely street price of the Revel. The 18.0 is $3234 shipped in the US. I don't know what Funk would want for the LMS driver, but I'd guess $350. Assuming a conservative street price of $7500 for the Revel you can have two 18.0s with the LMS driver, maybe.

As for DIY, Revel obviously isn't targeting the DIY market, they're targeting people that have an entire Revel system and want a sub that matches. IMHO, given that the Salon 2s are only $22K per pair at MSRP, I think they would do a lot better if they gave it an MSRP of $7500 and let dealers sell it for $6K, which is more line with the JL Audio and Velodyne competition.

The 18.0C is $3234? It starts at $1890, so I highly doubt moving to the LMS5400 would add that much cost. Where are you getting those #'s? Anyway, I was talking five 18.0's passive, as I'll use my own amps. That would be right around the 2K mark I'd think; even less if I build the cabinets myself.

We'll see if the dealers actually let them go for $7500. Even if they do that's still 3 18.0's with the LMS drivers and wicked amps and external DSP to handle them. But yeah, Revel's targeted customer is likely someone who owns Studio2 or Salon2's. I'd hope they'd be smart enough to shop elsewhere, though, as they are still paying too much.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The 18.0C is $3234? It starts at $1890, so I highly doubt moving to the LMS5400 would add that much cost. Where are you getting those #'s? Anyway, I was talking five 18.0's passive, as I'll use my own amps. That would be right around the 2K mark I'd think; even less if I build the cabinets myself.

We'll see if the dealers actually let them go for $7500. Even if they do that's still 3 18.0's with the LMS drivers and wicked amps and external DSP to handle them. But yeah, Revel's targeted customer is likely someone who owns Studio2 or Salon2's. I'd hope they'd be smart enough to shop elsewhere, though, as they are still paying too much.

I think $7500 is a very conservative street price for the Revel. I'd bet ADTG could get his dealer to sell one for less than $7K.

I was not assuming the 18.0c was a comparable product, and it isn't. The 18.0 is. I suppose we could get into the you-could-have-seven-$1K-so-and-so-subs reasoning, but that's not really an interesting discussion to someone in this market. No one is going to be cross-shopping this Revel sub and a bunch of much cheaper things.

I was smart enough to shop around when I was looking for a sub, but, frankly, my objectives were not to merely minimize cost of high output at 20Hz. If the Revel was available for, say, $6500, I would have probably picked it over the Velodyne (which I got for $4100), just because I like the looks of the Revel better.

Of course, if I was doing it all over again now, my sub of choice would very likely be a Funk 18.3 in clear cherry, with a grill, and a curved cabinet, for $4450. Nathan's products seem to have come a long way since I was in the market.

 

[Nuance AH]

I think $7500 is a very conservative street price for the Revel. I'd bet ADTG could get his dealer to sell one for less than $7K.

Maybe he could, but I don't put much stock in what he says. Again, these are just assumptions at this point anyway.

I was not assuming the 18.0c was a comparable product, and it isn't. The 18.0 is. I suppose we could get into the you-could-have-seven-$1K-so-and-so-subs reasoning, but that's not really an interesting discussion to someone in this market. No one is going to be cross-shopping this Revel sub and a bunch of much cheaper things.

I think a passive version of the 18.0c with the LMS5400 driver would be very comparable once paired with a decent amp. But let's use the passive version of the 18.0 instead, which costs just over $2000 shipped. That's still 3 amazing subs and a lot of dinero left for an amplifier budget. Or, if non-passive, two subs instead of one with build quality that is likely equal or better than the Revel, and probably better performance. I am sure the Revel will be a solid performer, but wow - that price... With that said, they have a very talented design team, so perhaps they have created the ultimate subwoofer, outperforming the TSAD and LMS5400U. I guess we'll find out eventually.

I was smart enough to shop around when I was looking for a sub, but, frankly, my objectives were not to merely minimize cost of high output at 20Hz. If the Revel was available for, say, $6500, I would have probably picked it over the Velodyne (which I got for $4100), just because I like the looks of the Revel better.

Of course, if I was doing it all over again now, my sub of choice would very likely be a Funk 18.3 in clear cherry, with a grill, and a curved cabinet, for $4450. Nathan's products seem to have come a long way since I was in the market.

You definitely made a good move by shopping around. No one is saying you didn't or anything.

 

[monkish54]

Revel has a good chance of beating the Velodyne, because it has a very similar driver and amplifier specs, but a larger cabinet volume.

Have you seen the T/S parameters?

If not, a bigger box doesn't mean much. In fact, unless Revel is stupid (which they are not) a larger box will hurt performance and give a wonky response. I'm sure both companies designed the drivers to be used in a specific box volume.

Specs are just that, and they don't necessarily reflect performance.

I don't disagree. However, some specs are very important! VC size/material is one of those specs, IMO

Does Nathan sell just the TSAD driver

Unfortunately, I do not think he does.

 

[ack_bak]

For this price the driver should be made out of solid gold....

There are just so many other options out there at cheaper prices that should blow this away for the price.. But hey, rich people won't care

 

[Irvrobinson]

For this price the driver should be made out of solid gold....

There are just so many other options out there at cheaper prices that should blow this away for the price.. But hey, rich people won't care

Well, let's see. Gold closed at $1670 per ounce today. I don't know how much the Revel driver weighs, but I'd guess in the range of 40 pounds. Now if that driver were solid gold it would weigh a lot more than 40 pounds, but even if we were to make believe that it could be solid gold and weigh 40 pounds, the driver would still consist of 640 ounces of gold, which would cost $1,068,800. So, even at MSRP it isn't reasonable to expect the driver to made of solid gold. Objection overruled. Case dismissed.

As for rich people not caring... they just don't necessarily agree with you about what a viable option is.

 

[Irvrobinson]

Have you seen the T/S parameters?

If not, a bigger box doesn't mean much. In fact, unless Revel is stupid (which they are not) a larger box will hurt performance and give a wonky response. I'm sure both companies designed the drivers to be used in a specific box volume.

But if the driver was designed for the larger box, wouldn't it be capable of higher output than a driver in smaller box?